USPSA / IDPA matches aren't training, unless you're training to shoot USPSA / IDPA matches.
But what they ARE is an excellent evaluation of your ability to shoot very quickly, very accurately, under stress.
And the first person to spout some nonsense about "spray and pray" should be slapped. Yes, some people do that. But not the people that win. The people that win are more accurate under extreme time constraints than what most weekend warriors can even imagine. Normal shooters just see the gamers go fast and assume that they must be missing.
The people who are most vocal against the games are the guys who went to a few matches, or even a lot of matches, and couldn't win. So they just drop back and punt to "tactics" and "race guns" to soothe their egos.
Check this guy out. The last drill is 4 hits to the A zone at 7 yards, with a draw and a reload, in less than 2 seconds. Could he do it "when the target is shooting back"? Maybe not. But neither could the "tactical" guy who can't even do it in practice.
I have served over 20 years in the military and the last 16 of those in the US Army Special Forces. In 2004 I attended SFAUC- Special Forces Advanced Urban Combat Course. I knew then that being a better shooter would be a life long passion. In between deployments and other duties at Group I was and assistant instructor for Combat Marksmanship, CQB, Breaching and the Sniper program. I later became the NCOIC for the Sniper program and Primary instructor for Combat Marksmanship. During that time I had the privilege to serve with and learn from some great guys.
In May 2007 I started competitive shooting and found out what I didn’t know about shooting.
My shooting skills pale when compared to many of you, but I have practiced enough to know how discombobulated people become when shooting against the clock or each other.
Such scenario's, drills, competitions and exercises certainly don't replicate someone shooting back at you, but they are real eye-openers as to how useless you can be when you're trying to go fast or even just be accurate when adrenaline is working against your mind and body.
Do some of what has been suggested. It will not be a waste of your time and ammo.
"Here’s my long point...I asked dad once how he survived the war? He said, “You had to believe you would survive, “but fight like you were already dead”...I swear, I went “huh”??? “What do you mean”? Dad, being of few words on the matter of his war experience, said back to me, “Exactly what I said son”..."
...wise words... I tell people if they are going to carry a gun and want to win a lethal force encounter they can't be scared to die...because when you get scared you loose control and when you loose control you make mistakes...and then you end up killing someone you should not have or getting killed yourself.
flave...when you shoot "The Game", watch the other shooters and ask yourself if the target being shot at was real and shooting back at them, would they survive? And that is the difference between shooting a game and training...in a game you get points...in training it is all or nothing. People who shoot games and think it is training will do exactly the same when it is real. Those who don't take training seriously will get scared to death and screw things up...have seen it over and over again...
Inducing stress is fairly easy....it's all attitude. I base almost all my scenarios on real life incidences like the two above. All the shooters have received an email with those scenarios and know what will happen if they screw up...dead...self-induced stress... I can always tell if someone is taking things seriously or not because they want to do better the next time...survive when the guy who did it for real didn't.
Stress is also induced by the "unknown"... Most of my scenarios have been shot "blind". You know the scenario but not the answer..."there are no dress rehearsals in real life". You don't get to see how the other guy did it and not make the same mistake... The one I am running for the 18 guys won't be blind because of time constraints but they are fairly straight forward...
And it isn't "training to loose"...it is training to win by learning from your mistakes. Better to die in training and learn from your mistakes than die for real when it is real...
Bob
I can't say I'd agree with any of that.
Originally Posted by Geno67
Trump being classless,tasteless and clueless as usual.
Originally Posted by Judman
Sorry, trump is a no tax payin pile of shiit.
Originally Posted by KSMITH
My young wife decided to play the field and had moved several dudes into my house
Check this guy out. The last drill is 4 hits to the A zone at 7 yards, with a draw and a reload, in less than 2 seconds. Could he do it "when the target is shooting back"? Maybe not. But neither could the "tactical" guy who can't even do it in practice.
Yeah, Blue, that guy is very good, alright, but it just can't be real................all the real pistoleros on here say that you just can't get a 1911 to run that fast & that many rounds in a row w/o some kind of failure.
If you can find a good force on force class using Sims, that is strictly controlled w/ a competent teacher it will give you a useful perspective on what actually works. DO NOT, repeat, DO NOT go to anything or anyone assosciated w/ Tactical Response.
mike r
Don't wish it were easier Wish you were better
Stab them in the taint, you can't put a tourniquet on that. Craig Douglas ECQC
Check this guy out. The last drill is 4 hits to the A zone at 7 yards, with a draw and a reload, in less than 2 seconds. Could he do it "when the target is shooting back"? Maybe not. But neither could the "tactical" guy who can't even do it in practice.
Yeah, Blue, that guy is very good, alright, but it just can't be real................all the real pistoleros on here say that you just can't get a 1911 to run that fast & that many rounds in a row w/o some kind of failure.
Inducing stress is fairly easy....it's all attitude. I base almost all my scenarios on real life incidences like the two above. All the shooters have received an email with those scenarios and know what will happen if they screw up...dead...self-induced stress... I can always tell if someone is taking things seriously or not because they want to do better the next time...survive when the guy who did it for real didn't. Bob
Let me get this strait... you induce stress by sending someone an email? Wtf
Your training would be interesting being that you can't watch someone else shoot the course first but not really sure that it would be worthwhile. One and done may teach you what you done wrong that time but it doesn't teach you what you would have done wrong the next time. Just like draws, reloads, malfunction drills etc, you learn (or at least I do) from repetition.
Those who are always shooting off at the mouth usually aren't shooting straight.
Build a man a fire and he’ll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire and he’ll be warm for the rest of his life.
Inducing stress is fairly easy....it's all attitude. I base almost all my scenarios on real life incidences like the two above. All the shooters have received an email with those scenarios and know what will happen if they screw up...dead...self-induced stress... I can always tell if someone is taking things seriously or not because they want to do better the next time...survive when the guy who did it for real didn't. Bob
Let me get this strait... you induce stress by sending someone an email? Wtf
...and you have never received an email that induced stress? In this case the shooters start looking forward to what is coming but the apprehension of not knowing what the exact course of fire is just starts to build...
Dave...the scenarios are kinda like the final exam... You have learned all the parts, now can you put it all together under stress. In the case of the one day deals I do I have no clue of the competency of many of the shooters as I'm not the one putting the shoot together. But when I ran monthly classes there was a scenario and then lessons and drills.
As to not leaning what to do right the next time...there is no next time because every time is going to be different. Every room you enter is different...doors swing open in different directions. You park your car facing in different directions...
Get the foundation down and then see if you can apply it to life....
Bob
If you can not deal with reality, reality will deal with you....
Beaver10 : I would recommend shooting of course with weak hand, shooting from positions laying on the floor/ground, shooting without your glasses on ( if you wear them or contacts) shooting in the dark, getting someone to knock the wind out of you and see if you can shoot right afterward, or a combination of the above. You also need to know what kind of flash you're dealing with in the dark and your recovery time. Shoot in a smallish room or from inside a vehicle, and Id recommend doing it once without ear protection ( yeah..I know...) just so you know what to expect if you do it for real....Notice things like the video posted above, the guy has the luxury of broad daylight, being upright without somebody hammering on him or shooting at him, eye and ear protection etc.....and that I assure you, aint the way it happens.. The big thing Ive found is LOTS of trigger time ( like you're doing) so that it all is second nature ( muscle memory yada yada...) confidence in your ability gives the mental edge thats more important than all the mall ninja crap when crunch time comes.
Last edited by ingwe; 07/24/18.
"...the left considers you vermin, and they'll kill you given the chance..." Bristoe
Ingwe, that’s actually some really great ideas. Shooting without my glasses? Never considered it. I will now! You speak to my thoughts that you just don’t know what or how the situation we start or unfold. Glasses being knocked off me is a real possibility. That FBI agent, I think his name was Agent Love or Dove. He lost his glasses and couldn’t shoot accurately in that fatal gun battle on some street many years ago where the FBI did a hot stop on some bad hombres.
I started shooting back in my early 20’s with a S&W 2” Model 66 revolver. Hated shooting it with full loads. I lost 30% of my hearing in my left ear, nerve damage from just one trip to a covered range where I forgot my ear protection.
I do shoot some rounds without my muffs on, but only a few...I have been inside a house where a 45 ACP was being shot. It’s has a distinct sound difference then outdoors.
I’m gonna ask the wife if I can shoot in our bedroom, since I don’t have access to a “shooting house”...I will prepare for my glasses being knocked off by her when I ask...😎
Curiosity Killed the Cat & The Prairie Dog “Molon Labe”
Get the foundation down and then see if you can apply it to life....
Bob
I agree but my point is that getting the foundation down comes from being as a good as you can be, and then moving into scenario based training that affirms your foundation leads to winning.
Training people that they are going to die doesn't instill anything of value.
Originally Posted by Geno67
Trump being classless,tasteless and clueless as usual.
Originally Posted by Judman
Sorry, trump is a no tax payin pile of shiit.
Originally Posted by KSMITH
My young wife decided to play the field and had moved several dudes into my house
100% agree which is why when I was running the regular classes from 1991 to 2013 you had to "shoot" your way into the class by going trough a series of test sessions that established your gun handling and shooting ability. The first couple of times you shot the scenarios you were shown the scenario but were not told "how" to shoot it... You progressed from there.
Right now I have two groups that are all very experienced shooters that is by invitation only. The upcoming shoot I was asked to put on by a large gun shop. All the participants are long time shooters but most have not done any "tactical" shooting so this is more of a "fun" day for them. The shop that put this on last year just liked what my friend and I did so much they asked us to do it again this year...
"Training people that they are going to die doesn't instill anything of value." My long time students would disagree... When you get killed a few times it increases your desire to do better to live...and then when you start winning the scenarios you know you have progressed. ALL the scenarios are survivable..you just can't significantly contribute to your own demise...
Bob
If you can not deal with reality, reality will deal with you....
Trav, I tried it once...I got penciled in on an “Open Class Shoot” at a range that I just happened to be shooting at with a buddy. There was 23 shooters including an Asian chick. I finished 17th. The chick and most of the other shooters were running various “Race Gun” rigs. I was shooting an XD-9 Service Model. My only “fame claim” was I beat two Benton County Sheriff Deputies, one State Trooper, and a guy older than God. The other two dudes behind me were “Joe’s” just like me. The Asian chick came in 4th. Top 5 all had race guns. The guy that took 6th was a SWAT cop. He could shoot, but his Glock couldn’t keep pace against the tricked out pistols. 😎
Most fights go physical before they go lethal, and it sounds like you've got the shooting part of the equation well in hand. I'd start looking at ways to handle the physical part of a confrontation by beefing up your grappling skills and doing force-on-force training with a place like ShivWorks.
That said, competition is a good way to introduce stress into your training program, but stage design restrictions can keep it from being too realistic. The goal of shooting a match should be to either a) learn something or b) prove/disprove a technique that you've been using. I find that shooting against other shooters can cause me to develop some bad habits so I prefer to shoot against myself. I shoot my carry gun in my carry rig. It's not that hard to beat most guys with race guns because they've never learned the fundamentals. Getting beat by a guy with a stock G19 in a concealment rig crushes their souls, which is also nice.
It's a different story when a shooter who knows what he's doing gets his hands on a race gun, but that's not very common around here.
Okie John
Originally Posted by Brad
If Montana had a standing army, a 270 Win with Federal Blue Box 130's would be the standard issue.
If the time ever comes god forbid im just hopin i dont pee my pants, seriously im 65 and been shooting since i was 13 so im as ready as im ever going to be
Keep your physical fitness high. Lose the excess weight if needed. For the old guys, talk to your Doc about testosterone treatment.
Situation awareness no mater where your go.
When you arm yourself for your trip out, run through your head the draw requirements of that weapon. Repeat throughout the trip.
Know your guns inside and out. Lots of practice.
Nothing new here. All common sense and simple.
Keep on telling yourself, if you lose your cool, you may loose your life. What the hell?
As far as stress, bring five women to the range with their wine glasses full and have them stand together within ear shot ( don't worry, you can still hear them with your ear protection on) . There is no stress to a man greater than that.
PS: A steel frame handgun make for a good slam.
Gun Shows are almost as comical as boat ramps in the Spring.
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