Just a quick thought. The Nazis were, if nothing else, meticulous keepers of records.
There was a paper trail for every person tossed into a cattle car and moved to any camp. And there was a paper trail for every person moved on out of that camp, to be used as slave labor elsewhere.
I do not think anyone claims 6,000,000 as the number cycled through the gas chambers and ovens. That number includes those machine gunned in the ghetto streets, and those who died of exhaustion and malnutrition in weapons factories, etc.
The transportation records give a very complete account of where the various minorities where moved during the time of the Third Reich. And they also show where those people disappeared. And millions of them were moved into the concentration camps where gas chambers existed, but were never moved out. They were disposed of somehow.
Dwight D had no reason to lie about it.
Often the simplest answer is the true answer. The simplest answer is that the holocaust occurred just as presented at Nuremburg.
Yes, very detailed records of the vast numbers transported and worked to death, used for experiments, or just simply murdered, some of which were intercepted during the war and some captured afterward by allied forces, including US forces. Detailed accounts from the people who were involved in the processes, from rounding up, transporting, to killing and disposing of the bodies - at every level from those pressed into service to commanders. Recordings of wartime speeches from Nazi leaders, discussing it. Records of the construction of the facilities, from gas trucks to gas chambers to mass graves. Detailed accounts from those who saw it all happening.
I've even spoken to witnesses directly myself.
And yet there are still some stupid or evil enough to say it never happened.
I believe that Jews were systematically persecuted and robbed of possessions but I do not believe that there was a government plan to commit genocide (murder). I don't doubt that many SS members who had their minds poisoned by Nazi propaganda took it upon themselves to commit atrocities. People say that the simplest answer is usually the correct one. The presence of gas chambers with insecticide residue makes more sense as a delousing chamber rather than a murder tool. That is especially true when you consider the widespread outbreaks of Typhus are the result of lice and other insects. Even with no malicious intent (there was malice, I know), you would expect many, many deaths when people were living in these conditions while deprived of adequate food. Also, remember that penicillin was not publicly available until around 1942. Bacterial infections that are easily treated today were often fatal before penicillin. In close quarters and without antibiotics, a outbreak of Strep, etc. could kill a lot of people, especially in a weakened state. I find this explanation would account for most of the deaths. It is simply more plausible than state-sanctioned genocide in a civilized country. However, I do believe that SS members committed murder and other acts of violence against the prisoners who they viewed as subhuman.
Also, Imagine what would have happened at the American internment camps if there was a food shortage and daily carpet bombing in the U.S. There would be suffering and death in the internment camps.
Couple all of this with the obvious history of atrocity propaganda used to motivate people to aid in war. There is nothing new about atrocity propaganda. Add to that the political benefits and the active Zionist movement and you can imagine the worst stories of the holocaust being used as political currency and Hawkeye's opinion is not farfetched. One correction though, I seem to recall reading that Hitler wanted to send the Jews to Madagascar, not Palestine.
None of us know for sure what happened. The fact that people lose their minds over any inquiry into the holocaust narrative - including criminal prosecution for holocaust denial - suggests to me that they fear that the holocaust narrative will not hold up to scrutiny. Declare that the world is flat and people will simply brand you a fool. I think part of the problem is that Holocaust questioners/deniers are frequently anti-Semites. That makes people think that they have an agenda (rightfully so).
Also, Hawkeye is absolutely correct that Jews played prominent roles in the Communist Revolution. I was not Jews alone but Jews were significantly overrepresented in the movement. That is not justification for the Nazis vilifying them as a people (there are Jews of all political persuasions) but it may explain some of the paranoia.
People often have difficulty believing the evil which exists in the heart of man. Germans exterminating Jews is no different than Mormans murduring immigrants at Mountain Meadows. Or US Army slaughtering Native American encampments wholesale. Or US troops at My Lai. Except for the scale
Systematic genocide has occurred throughout recorded human history and long before records became available.
Genocide occurs daily in Africa. One tribe attempting to wipe out another. The same can be said of the Middle East. Look at what the Japanese did to Korea, and China.
But those are not civilised Christians? There were a lot of Christians in Yugoslavia when the recent horrors occurred there.
It is simple enough to understand...human life holds little value EXCEPT TO THOSE CLOSE TO IT. We attempt to change but when all is said and done this is where we end up.
I suspect we are not too far removed from our predecessors.
Does anyone else see the irony of Nazi Germany's Aryan ideal male as compared to Hitler, Himmler or Goebbels? None were tall or blonde..
The ideal appearance women that men like to dream and fantasise about in , Sport illustrated , Playboy, etc are typically nothing like their wives, mothers, sisters, or friends, or work colleagues, or most people in town or neigborhood.
The ideal house , holiday, clothing , residential dress, hair style, car model, religion, political brand, brand of beer, aftershave, toothpaste, makeup etc, etc, etc is marketed into peoples minds on a large scale everyday.
How many of todays politicians live up to the list of ideals they promote? How many fools still fall for the polished turd baby kissing weak handshake politician in a fancy suite and cheap smile?
-Bulletproof and Waterproof don't mean Idiotproof.
People often have difficulty believing the evil which exists in the heart of man. Germans exterminating Jews is no different than Mormans murduring immigrants at Mountain Meadows. Or US Army slaughtering Native American encampments wholesale. Or US troops at My Lai. Except for the scale
WW2 firebombing of some 70 Japanese cities comes to mind.
McNamara's comment: LeMay said that "If we'd lost the war, we'd all have been prosecuted as war criminals." "And I think he's right," says McNamara. "He, and I'd say I, were behaving as war criminals." . . "LeMay recognized that what he was doing would be thought immoral if his side has lost. But what makes it immoral if you lose and not immoral if you win?"
Winners, no matter who they might be, have the luxury of deciding the narrative of history.
Allied power Stalin and his campaign of slaughtering, brutality, enslaving and starving many millions doesn't get reverberated like the Nazi history of terror does.
People forget the Soviets invaded Poland in1939 just like the nazis, and they behaved no better than the Nazis in how they treated the population and certain undesirables.
Stalin after the war, spared Erich Koch, the Nazi Reichskommissar of Ukraine... who oversaw the death of 4 million in the region....when Soviets pushed the Germans back through Poland , the NKVD and SMERSH security forces went about cleansing the region of Polish partisans that fought against the German occupation,.. they were viewed as enemies of the Soviet Union.
-Bulletproof and Waterproof don't mean Idiotproof.
Those who blindly defend the Holocaust are sententious morons. All six death camps were located in Poland. All six were liberated by Stalin's Red Army. No Western scientists have ever been permitted to perform scientific analysis of events that might have occurred at the six death camps. They know what they've been told. They have no clue of what they've been told is true.
This is not denial. This is an admission that while something might have happened at the death camps, NO ONE knows what did in fact happened at the six death camps. They know only what they've been told. They choose to believe what they're told. They have no clue of whether what they believe is true is in fact propaganda. Neither do I. But I'll freely admit what I don't know.
Allow Western scientists to conduct scientific analysis of what occurred at the six death camps.
Believe half of what you see and none of what you hear.
Americans are the most propagandized people in the world.
Anti-Semitic is a trite and meaningless clause used by those with zero Semitic blood.
People often have difficulty believing the evil which exists in the heart of man. Germans exterminating Jews is no different than Mormans murduring immigrants at Mountain Meadows. Or US Army slaughtering Native American encampments wholesale. Or US troops at My Lai. Except for the scale
WW2 firebombing of some 70 Japanese cities comes to mind.
McNamara's comment: LeMay said that "If we'd lost the war, we'd all have been prosecuted as war criminals." "And I think he's right," says McNamara. "He, and I'd say I, were behaving as war criminals." . . "LeMay recognized that what he was doing would be thought immoral if his side has lost. But what makes it immoral if you lose and not immoral if you win?"
Winners, no matter who they might be, have the luxury of deciding the narrative of history.
Allied power Stalin and his campaign of slaughtering, brutality, enslaving and starving many millions doesn't get reverberated like the Nazi history of terror does.
People forget the Soviets invaded Poland in1939 just like the nazis, and they behaved no better than the Nazis in how they treated the population and certain undesirables.
Stalin after the war, spared Erich Koch, the Nazi Reichskommissar of Ukraine... who oversaw the death of 4 million in the region....when Soviets pushed the Germans back through Poland , the NKVD and SMERSH security forces went about cleansing the region of Polish partisans that fought against the German occupation,.. they were viewed as enemies of the Soviet Union.
Say what you will, you can take a stroll along the quay in Honolulu on a Sunday morning without being blown to pieces, burned to death, or entombed alive in a sunken ship for the last 77 years now.
Japan was at fault and started it. If they'd surrendered, their cities would not have been firebombed. There's an old saying that if you're going to strike the king, you'd better kill him. The Japanese didn't kill the king. I don't think LeMay meant that we did anything wrong. I think he merely meant that the Japanese, if they'd won, would have punished us unmercifully.
As for mass murders, I think you can credit Hitler with 10,000,000 or so, Stalin and the Soviets with 30,000,000, and Mao with 60,000,000. That's 100,000,000 killed by their own governments. The governments had in common that (a) they were socialist and (b) private ownership of firearms was outlawed. the 2nd Amendment ain't about duck hunting.
PragerU.com had a 5-minute video on why everyone talks about the Nazis and gives communism a pass. It's worth watching.
Don't blame me. I voted for Trump.
Democrats would burn this country to the ground, if they could rule over the ashes.
Over the years, I have come to believe that several members of the 24HCF have significant psychiatric problems.
People who believe that Holocaust did not happen, despite the overwhelming evidence in the public domain validating the historical truth, are also very likely to believe in the various Kennedy assassination conspiracy theories, believe vaccines cause autism and other childhood diseases, believe in the chemtrail conspiracy and the Illuminati conspiracy and so on. Many of them believe the earth is flat, the moon landings were fake, and that George W. Bush planned 9/11. Many of them are also Democrats, but to be fair, many of them are ultra-right in their politics.
These folks believe they are intelligent, and educated, although this is manifestly untrue to any reasonable observer. They “do their own research” and “come to their own conclusions”, which means they seek out sources that share their belief in kookery, and reinforce each other’s bizarre notions.
These people are well known to us. THere is no point in calling them out by name, as they are so far gone in their deluded thinking they cannot be brought around to rational thinking.
I’m not sure they can be called stupid and evil. Are they stupid? Well, TRH certainly isn’t stupid. I can’t speak for the others, though. Evil? I’m not sure I can speak to that, but I can say that if one propagates a lie in the name of intellectual vanity or narcissism or any other form of ego, this enables evil.
It’s really just very sad.
"I'm gonna have to science the schit out of this." Mark Watney, Sol 59, Mars
Those who blindly defend the Holocaust are sententious morons. All six death camps were located in Poland. All six were liberated by Stalin's Red Army. No Western scientists have ever been permitted to perform scientific analysis of events that might have occurred at the six death camps. They know what they've been told. They have no clue of what they've been told is true.
This is not denial. This is an admission that while something might have happened at the death camps, NO ONE knows what did in fact happened at the six death camps. They know only what they've been told. They choose to believe what they're told. They have no clue of whether what they believe is true is in fact propaganda. Neither do I. But I'll freely admit what I don't know.
Allow Western scientists to conduct scientific analysis of what occurred at the six death camps.
Believe half of what you see and none of what you hear.
Americans are the most propagandized people in the world.
Anti-Semitic is a trite and meaningless clause used by those with zero Semitic blood.
I'm not defending Trumpster, nor denying atrocities, and genocide, took place under the Nazi regime. But even Holocaust scholars make a distinction between "death camps" and "concentration camps."
The 6 death camps as defined by holocaust scholars were Chelmno, Belzec, Sobibor, Treblinka, Majdanek and Auschwitz-Birkenau. The sole purpose of those 6 was to carry out the systematic mass murder of Jews as part of the Final Solution.
Over the years, I have come to believe that several members of the 24HCF have significant psychiatric problems.
People who believe that Holocaust did not happen, despite the overwhelming evidence in the public domain validating the historical truth, are also very likely to believe in the various Kennedy assassination conspiracy theories, believe vaccines cause autism and other childhood diseases, believe in the chemtrail conspiracy and the Illuminati conspiracy and so on. Many of them believe the earth is flat, the moon landings were fake, and that George W. Bush planned 9/11. Many of them are also Democrats, but to be fair, many of them are ultra-right in their politics.
These folks believe they are intelligent, and educated, although this is manifestly untrue to any reasonable observer. They “do their own research” and “come to their own conclusions”, which means they seek out sources that share their belief in kookery, and reinforce each other’s bizarre notions.
These people are well known to us. THere is no point in calling them out by name, as they are so far gone in their deluded thinking they cannot be brought around to rational thinking.
I’m not sure they can be called stupid and evil. Are they stupid? Well, TRH certainly isn’t stupid. I can’t speak for the others, though. Evil? I’m not sure I can speak to that, but I can say that if one propagates a lie in the name of intellectual vanity or narcissism or any other form of ego, this enables evil.
It’s really just very sad.
Doc, I worked out some time past that people will believe as they wish to believe, and nothing I can say or do will sway them from what they choose.
How do you explain the ~150,000 Jews who loyally served Hitler in the Nazi army?
Easy to explain, they chose to live with some slight glimmer of hope, as opposed to an immediate death. Same reason why so many high ranking Nazis lied at Nuremberg when their own lives were at stake.
I would encourage reading just the final chapters from the book ( the rise and fall of the 3rd reich.) [/quote]
^^^Rationalizing bad behavior^^^
I suggest that you read this: www.talmudunmasked.com. It's Talmudic Judaism's plan to destroy Christianity.
Those who blindly defend the Holocaust are sententious morons. All six death camps were located in Poland. All six were liberated by Stalin's Red Army. No Western scientists have ever been permitted to perform scientific analysis of events that might have occurred at the six death camps. They know what they've been told. They have no clue of what they've been told is true.
This is not denial. This is an admission that while something might have happened at the death camps, NO ONE knows what did in fact happened at the six death camps. They know only what they've been told. They choose to believe what they're told. They have no clue of whether what they believe is true is in fact propaganda. Neither do I. But I'll freely admit what I don't know.
Allow Western scientists to conduct scientific analysis of what occurred at the six death camps.
Believe half of what you see and none of what you hear.
Americans are the most propagandized people in the world.
Anti-Semitic is a trite and meaningless clause used by those with zero Semitic blood.
I'm not defending Trumpster, nor denying atrocities, and genocide, took place under the Nazi regime. But even Holocaust scholars make a distinction between "death camps" and "concentration camps."
The 6 death camps as defined by holocaust scholars were Chelmno, Belzec, Sobibor, Treblinka, Majdanek and Auschwitz-Birkenau. The sole purpose of those 6 was to carry out the systematic mass murder of Jews as part of the Final Solution.
semantics are wonderful to distinguish between a death camp and a work camp. if you become dead at either one either from gas, getting shot, or overworked starved to death, i don't think the terminology matters.
Over the years, I have come to believe that several members of the 24HCF have significant psychiatric problems.
People who believe that Holocaust did not happen, despite the overwhelming evidence in the public domain validating the historical truth, are also very likely to believe in the various Kennedy assassination conspiracy theories, believe vaccines cause autism and other childhood diseases, believe in the chemtrail conspiracy and the Illuminati conspiracy and so on. Many of them believe the earth is flat, the moon landings were fake, and that George W. Bush planned 9/11. Many of them are also Democrats, but to be fair, many of them are ultra-right in their politics.
These folks believe they are intelligent, and educated, although this is manifestly untrue to any reasonable observer. They “do their own research” and “come to their own conclusions”, which means they seek out sources that share their belief in kookery, and reinforce each other’s bizarre notions.
These people are well known to us. THere is no point in calling them out by name, as they are so far gone in their deluded thinking they cannot be brought around to rational thinking.
I’m not sure they can be called stupid and evil. Are they stupid? Well, TRH certainly isn’t stupid. I can’t speak for the others, though. Evil? I’m not sure I can speak to that, but I can say that if one propagates a lie in the name of intellectual vanity or narcissism or any other form of ego, this enables evil.
It’s really just very sad.
Doc,
You're post is overly simplistic and lacks intellectual validity. What are you considering evidence? What is your basis for discerning Holocaust propaganda from Holocaust facts? How do you know what happened at the six death camps, all of which were located in Poland, and all of which were under control of Stalin? Do you know of Western scientific research that has determined what happened at the death camps?
Pejoratives always implicate logical fallacy. Holocaust denier is pejorative for, "What scientific foundation supports your conclusion that what you've read is factual and not propaganda?"
You have done no Holocaust research, so how do you KNOW what happened? How do you know what happened during the Holocaust? You don't know. You're assuming.
Public education taught me that Senator Joe McCarthy, a WWII hero with a genius IQ, was a whack job. I'm guessing that it'd be a waste of my time to write that every single thing you thought you knew about Senator McCarthy was a lie. After the fall of the Berlin Wall, the FBI released the Venona Project. Every single commie that Senator McCarthy outed was in fact a commie. Senator McCarthy was the first victim of McCarthyism. Truman's Administration was weighted with Stalin's Travelers.
Your normalcy bias has you comfortably ensconced in what might be a false narrative. You refuse to acknowledge that what you think you know might be wrong. The three most difficult words for people to say are, "I was wrong."
What's most disturbing and destructive of your credibility is your emotional (as opposed to factual) attempt to silence those who might have more knowledge on the subject than do you. Why are you afraid of legitimate debate? I'd love to have access to Western scientific knowledge of what occurred during the Holocaust. A book, even a textbook, doesn't qualify as scientific fact.
No one has ever been able to produce a single document signed by Hitler approving the Final Solution. No one has been able to prove that Hitler knew of the existence of the death camps.
Were the death camps infrastructure constructed to murder people? Or were they camps in which death occurred? I honestly do not know. Neither do you.
Was Holocaust history based upon mistake or lies? I don't know and neither do you. Here's a Jewish Holocaust history professor admitting that the the soap and lampshade Holocaust shtick was not true. Was it a lie or a mistake? You don't know. Don't you think we should know Holocaust facts? Don't you think we should know whether we've been duped?
What concerns me is your pseudo-intellectual rejoinder was crafted to shut down legitimate pursuit of knowledge. Why are you fearful of Socratic inquiry of Holocaust facts? What is your agenda?
Those who blindly defend the Holocaust are sententious morons. All six death camps were located in Poland. All six were liberated by Stalin's Red Army. No Western scientists have ever been permitted to perform scientific analysis of events that might have occurred at the six death camps. They know what they've been told. They have no clue of what they've been told is true.
This is not denial. This is an admission that while something might have happened at the death camps, NO ONE knows what did in fact happened at the six death camps. They know only what they've been told. They choose to believe what they're told. They have no clue of whether what they believe is true is in fact propaganda. Neither do I. But I'll freely admit what I don't know.
Allow Western scientists to conduct scientific analysis of what occurred at the six death camps.
Believe half of what you see and none of what you hear.
Americans are the most propagandized people in the world.
Anti-Semitic is a trite and meaningless clause used by those with zero Semitic blood.
If you don't know the difference between concentration camps and death camps, what the hell makes you think that you're qualified to participate in this debate?
You have an agenda, an ulterior motive.
If you're a Talmudic Jew, you know of the six death camps. Why are you lying? Is it your anti-Christian bias?
Over the years, I have come to believe that several members of the 24HCF have significant psychiatric problems.
People who believe that Holocaust did not happen, despite the overwhelming evidence in the public domain validating the historical truth, are also very likely to believe in the various Kennedy assassination conspiracy theories, believe vaccines cause autism and other childhood diseases, believe in the chemtrail conspiracy and the Illuminati conspiracy and so on. Many of them believe the earth is flat, the moon landings were fake, and that George W. Bush planned 9/11. Many of them are also Democrats, but to be fair, many of them are ultra-right in their politics.
These folks believe they are intelligent, and educated, although this is manifestly untrue to any reasonable observer. They “do their own research” and “come to their own conclusions”, which means they seek out sources that share their belief in kookery, and reinforce each other’s bizarre notions.
These people are well known to us. THere is no point in calling them out by name, as they are so far gone in their deluded thinking they cannot be brought around to rational thinking.
I’m not sure they can be called stupid and evil. Are they stupid? Well, TRH certainly isn’t stupid. I can’t speak for the others, though. Evil? I’m not sure I can speak to that, but I can say that if one propagates a lie in the name of intellectual vanity or narcissism or any other form of ego, this enables evil.
It’s really just very sad.
i have been talking to survivors of that period most of my adult life, that experienced it first hand. I think people that otherwise are intelligent can also be stupid in some areas. holocaust denial is one of them.
Doc, I worked out some time past that people will believe as they wish to believe, and nothing I can say or do will sway them from what they choose.
I concur. It is pointless to engage with them on a limited forum such as the internet, where their logical fallacies are more easily propagated and their glaring inadequacies can be hidden.
"I'm gonna have to science the schit out of this." Mark Watney, Sol 59, Mars
