Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Handguns Optic Ready Pistols? 45ACP only, and Minature Red Dot Advice

OK...

The Reason;

I've reached that dreaded point in life where iron sights are no longer crisp & clear.... I ordered a set of glasses that focus the sights for my predominant eye and at distance for the other eye, kind of works, but I do not care to wear these every day (just the range so far). So I've finally faced the fact that I need to use a red dot sight if I want to maintain any kind of accuracy.

Range use (about my only hobby other than shooting rifles)... also for carrying in the woods (hiking, loafing, camping,etc.)===> targets of opportunity (45 acp... yes I've headshot grouse with my Smith), and the very unlikely event of a Cougar or Bear encounter (wasted my life working in the woods, prefer to be prepared, but realistically the odds are incredibly slim).

Also this will be used as my night stand gun and in the rare event that I feel the need to carry socially.


The Sights;

Not totally new to red dots, I have a Bushnell red dot and a Burris FF3. But I am looking for something that is motion activated (always ready... no need to turn on & off) and smaller than the Bushnell so that I can carry it (semi-) unobtrusively.

I am presently looking at the Trijicon RMR (battery powered, 2nd version) and the Sig Romeo 1. The limited warranty on the Leupold Delta concerns Me. Any experienced advice?


The Gun;

I waver back and forth between my 1911..been shooting them since I was in the service and carried almost every day on duty and for most of my career working in the woods, and lately (last three years) my Glock G30. I'm also quite keen on My Smith 45 acp Mountain Gun, but feel the bulk and reloads are an issue, also with a red dot mount there is no iron sight back-up.

The only 1911's I've found so far are Kimber's 'Aegis' (OI)<===optics installed or their KHM Custom (OR) <=== Optics Ready. Springfield has a 10mm with an optic, but to my knowledge no 45's (yet). I've never had a Kimber... so not sure what to expect there?

The Glock G30 is real easy... send it off and have the slide milled & drilled for whichever sight I choose.


Route I Feel I Will Go as I write this;

Go with the G30 and run it for a year or so... Switch out to a 1911 if it doesn't fly my kite.


The advice I am looking for;

1.) Minature red dot sight experience?

2.) Other 1911 Optic Ready Pistols? The Kimbers mentioned are pretty much my $$$ limit... No Ed Brown's or Les Baer's unfortunately.

3.) Others who have traveled this road and their take.


Jerry

Jerry, I've posted about this stuff a number of times before, but usually it ends with someone just starting down this path arguing that a cheap dovetail setup without cowitnessed iron sights is just as good. Sounds like you're headed in the right direction though with a milled slide and co-witness irons.

Like you said, the G30 is the easy button here, and certainly the most economical way to try the concept while still doing it right. I haven't milled a 1911 yet, but have milled a fair number of Glocks along with some Walther, Sig, etc; the Glock is just the easy way to go. (I'm not taking on work, sorry, but happy to share my experiences.) BTW the Glock 45/10mm slides are pretty much a perfect fit to the Trijicon RMR; width is almost exactly the same, no overhang.

As to the red dot sight - I've been carrying red dot pistols for about 6 years now, and the RMR has been the way to go for sure. That's mostly with the older RMR sights though; I'm still unsure about the newer Type 2. The Deltapoint Pro gets honorable mention for a good effort with some advantages for a game gun, but the lack of automatic brightness adjustment takes it out of the running for me to use as a carry gun that could be used in practically any lighting situation.

Springfield has a new on just out. Looks neat. Flat top, optics ready.

I'm new to the MRDS and got good advice from Yondering and Form here, I went with the RMR 06 type 2 with the 3.25 dot on my M&P. I have had the combo out 3 or 4 trips and have roughly only about 1500 rounds fired, it has been an easy transition. I also have had a Burris FF2 and a JPoint on 22' for a couple of years that I'm sure helped.

The only real advice I can offer is choose a gun that points well for you. Glock vs 1911, the Glock would give me fits trying to find the dot. Nothing wrong with a Glock but they point totally different than a 1911 and if you're used to a 1911, you might spend more time searching for the dot with the Glock.

Case in point, I had a Buckmark with the JPoint on it and always had trouble finding the dot in steel challenge matches. I switched to a Ruger MK4 22/45 lite and shaved a half second off my times.

Again nothing wrong with Glock if you're used to them but I'd go with whatever gun you're most familiar with.

Aimpoint is coming out with one as well. It might be the best once it's proven but for now I'm perfectly content with my RMR 06 type 2.

One important point to keep in mind here is you don't have co-witnessed irons on that Buckmark most likely (unless you're doing something really different, which I'd like to see). After enough reps the irons don't matter for aquiring the dot, but at first, they are the training wheels to get you on target.


I saw that Aimpoint attempt at a "miniature" red dot and just had to laugh. I put "miniature" in quotes intentionally. I think Aimpoint had a swing and a miss with that one.

Correct, no irons on the Buckmark but none on the Ruger either. If it doesn't point naturally I waste time searching for the dot once the timer goes off. I can of course find the dot at low ready and move the dot to the target but it's just as slow. Start at low ready, eyes on first plate, timer goes off, snap gun up to target, if the gun fits, the dot is there. I really don't see my sights on the M&P CORE, just the dot. Sometimes I can't see the sights on my regular pistols either, thus the move to a red dot.

If the Aimpoint had 5 year battery life like the micro series, I could overlook the size (which really isn't that much bigger). I like the idea of it being enclosed and I will still look at one if they ever get released but I'm not giving up my RMR.

A couple of years ago, I owned a used Gen3 Glock 17 that had been milled for an RMR02 by Suarez International. I put a couple of thousand rounds through it. This is what I learned:
• An RDS is great when the target is moving, when you’re moving, or both.
• It’s generally slower than irons on shots inside of about 10 yards.
• It’s faster and more accurate than irons from 10-100 yards.
• It’s superb in near-total darkness—way better than night sights. Just turn the brightness way down do you don’t light up your face.
• The RDS learning curve can be steep. The longer you’ve been shooting, the more serious dedicated practice it takes to master it.

I’ve also followed this technology on another pistol-centric forum where posters include several dozen special ops and law enforcement folks who carry RDS-equipped pistols into harm’s way every day. The consensus is that
• Current RDS versions are not ideal yet, but it’s just a matter of time until they are.
• Dovetail-mounted versions are inferior to a milled-in installation. Factory optics-ready pistols like the Glock MOS are somewhere in between.
• Unity Tactical and Bowie Tactical are good sources for parts and work. Suarez International is OK but some people object to Gabe’s history.
• Current RMRs are somewhat fragile and battery life is erratic. Earlier ones are better but are hard to find. Trijicon is not responding to this as quickly as everyone would like. They hope for good things from Aimpoint.
• Co-witnessed irons are a must. They’re fast up close, they’re your backup if the battery dies, and they’re the training wheels for the RDS. Jury is out on whether the rear sight should be forward or aft of the RDS.
• Most Kydex concealment holsters work with an RDS-equipped pistol, or will with slight modification. This is less true of duty holsters.
• There are not enough Sig and Leupold sights in circulation among serious users to know how they hold up. Gaming use of both is growing and is revealing weaknesses that serious users will not tolerate.

Other observations:
• Refinish the slide if you get it milled. Even a coat of paint is better than nothing. Suarez didn’t refinish the slide on my pistol. I shot it in the rain and the RMR cut rusted before I got home.
• It’s probably smarter to buy an aftermarket stainless slide that’s milled for an RDS. You can also have an OEM milled, but the refinish can be expensive.
• The RDS is a true adjustable sight, so you can zero it precisely without a lot of drama.
• The RDS is almost useless if the screen gets wet because suddenly you have red dots all over the screen. This matters a lot to me because I live in western Washington where it rains all the time.
• I would not be surprised to see a European maker step in and offer a superior RDS in much the same manner as S&B did with the Short Dot when Leupold dropped that ball.

You may be able to find a used Glock with an RMR mounted as your test piece. That might be cheaper than starting from scratch.


Okie John

"• Current RMRs are somewhat fragile and battery life is erratic. Earlier ones are better but are hard to find. Trijicon is not responding to this as quickly as everyone would like. They hope for good things from Aimpoint."

Interesting, all of the sources I checked before buying one said just the opposite, get the type 2 RMR. Are you talking early type 2's or type 1's?

Okie John, all good points there, great post.

I agree 100% on refinishing the slide (I'm also in rainy western WA) after having it milled; if I were sending one out I'd want to make sure they will do that. On most of my milling jobs I use a black epoxy paint from VHT that holds up really well; never had corrosion issues with one of those yet.

On my personal G19 carry gun I did an experiment, and parkerized the milled surface for protection; I didn't alter any of the other surfaces, leaving the melonite in place, and it actually turned out really well. The milled surface turned out normally for parkerizing, and the nitrided surfaces turned a deep flat black. That is slowly wearing away again, but was an interesting way to touch up an old worn slide without removing the melonite. About a year later now, I'd say the epoxy paint is still a better way to go for the milled area; protection is better.

Guys,

I really appreciate Your knowledge based posts.

Thanks,

Jerry