Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Long Range Hunting 30-06 vs 6.5 Creedmoor, with contraints

Given the constraints of the OP, which I understand have been relaxed, it seemed relevant that there are several ways to establish a range to a target, even when the cold has temporarily rendered your rangefinder useless, or the battery died, or you lost/forgot/broke it, or a guy says “no LRF in his op”


I bet my life the methods I have mentioned work to the degree with which they are accuralty applied by the practitioner. The same as an LRF will. But it’s not a big deal, I bring an LRF when I hunt. And in 30 years of hunting I haven’t shot any animals past 315 and only did that this year. I didn’t used to like to apply these techniques when I was hunting anaimals because it would really get some hate boiling in me which I didn’t like in the context. Now however I just enjoy excercising my brain by working to apply and thereby retain pretty much any information I have left in there as it’s going quickly otherwise.


Edit: this post reads like I’m housebound old guy or something
In that context it’s Probably my best campfire post to date. But the detail oriented reader will note the use of the word “apply”

So you've never actually used the techniques/methods you're advocating for taking game?

Likewise you don't know what a pocket is or how to use one?

David

I can’t match wits with you, man. At all. But on Thanksgiving Day, I took a little time to throw up some personally fieldtested and completely legitimate and valid info, With which guys who are interested can expand there skill set and there abilities on the ground.

Making me look dumb is no task, enjoy yourself at it, but the fact that I have a hard time communicating the information in this venue does nothing to it’s validity
Invalidating the information I’ve posted is not possible.

175rltw, i like your thought process of how to improvise and estimate in the woods when Murphy appears... it helps to have thought thru some of that stuff in advance...

now i want you to go back to Benning Phase and blindfold yourself and then take out the compass and tell me how many clicks to set a 102 degree azimuth in the dark. (evil grin)

Class 2-79

Talk about back when it was hard... dam. I was about to turn 1.

I got to 1st bat in September 03 and went to school a year later and went straight through 11-04 to become a tab spec 4.

You may or not be aware, but as per SOP my class was the last hard class. You probably thought it was 7-79, but alas. Mine wass the last hard class

Knowing how to use a reticle to range, and that range being even remotely close enough to be consistent enough past 300’ish meters- are two completely separate things.


Milling live targets that vary in size, presentation, and angle is nowhere near milling an E-Type. Just as with humans, the range practice of known, unchanging target size gives vastly unrealistic expectations of ability in the field on real targets, that are an unknown size, and aren’t facing perpendicular.


I’ve had instructors from every single military sniper school/course and national level competitors and not one has been able to consistently mil deer, elk, antelope, etc. accurately enough past 350-400 yards to be within 25 meters consistently. Not one.

I feel no need to challenge your assertions. I’d say that what you describe amongst competitor and instructors the case. There’s isn’t any sport that capitalized on the ability to effectively mil a distance. Instructors are focused on the specific skill sets that they t each and frequently display an overall lack of proficiency in areas other than there own subject matter- specifically that which they are responsible for teaching.

I will throw this out as well- assuming we misjudge our range by 50 yards at 600, leaving he realm of theory, I’ll talk about what load I know- my 7-08 is 3.6 low at 550 vs 4.2 at 600 a difference at that range of 18” or so that’s spine or bottom of lungs in an elk. At 400 yard and assuming only 25 error we have about 6” of possible error- not a big deal.

If you note in my actual example that I pitched I miled the range based on an environmental factor that was easily predetermined rahhree than the actual bull- again, this is real [bleep] but your proficiency at the task will mirror the effort put into training.

Agreed. A good skill to have and understand, but of very limited practicality in the real world, due to a lack of resolving precision when measuring the object against the reticle (a misjudgement of 0.1 MRAD matters), as well as excessive variation in actual visible target size. It’s also often impractical to get into a solid enough position for long enough to measure the target with the reticle, with the degree of precision necessary- simple prone off a ruck is insufficient for anything beyond a few hundred meters on a deer/elk chest sized target.

A very good last, last resort, but a poor substitute for a capable LRF.

18” low or high is spine or bottom of lungs...? What about the 50% of the rounds that hit above or below your aim point?





So how do you know that the spruce limb your measuring is 18” and not 19”? Or 16, or 20, etc?


The answer is- you don’t. You don’t know if the buck you’re looking at has an 18” deep chest or a 16.5”. Or a 19”. Or anything between. Considering that the apparent size from back to brisket on a deer varies almost two inches just due to condition of their coat.....



As for your thoughts on instructors, this ain’t a measuring contest, however, I’ve/we’ve had multiple individuals that were current slotted snipers from your prior organizatio, and they couldn’t do any better. When I say that no one can consistently be within 25, and usually not even within 50 meters of the actual range on live targets- I’m not guessing. The reason is simple- you can’t know how big your target is. The same exact deer can and will vary over two inches from September to December. And they don’t all lose or gain size consistently.


I’ll be at Quantico in the next month. I’ll get instructors, students, and slotted snipers to measure deer on the unknown ranges. They will be lucky to be within 25m, 50% of the time. Usually it’s 50m, 50% of the time at best on live targets.

Is it me, or is life a lot easier inside the 300 yard line?

Nah, it’s simple...Grin 😎

Form- no contest but this is measuring- for serious. Now listen If those deer changed size like that while I was trying to shoot it would be tough- or If i had to look at them in September but range them in December. That’d be a trick. But whatever size they are is irrelevant when we are working of environmental factors that give us a little better control. Yes we are Still dealing with range estimation- but at some point your margin for error drops below that threshold where it becomes smaller than the kill zone.

The point I make about picking something environment that is widespread and consistent rather than an animal that a livestock judge might not know what to make of- ie browslines, how high the spruce decline starts, how high the hawthorn,devils club,bitterbrush,sagebrush etc are- and using those as your references is all about reducing that margin of error- which you know and don’t need me to do xplain but are making me anyway. At 600yards a 30 yard error on your range call will still be within 8-10” of your poa with almost anything. Which you know.

I know your not guessing about guys abilities to range live deer cold on the spot with a mil reticle- but those same fellas- and you, and me, can all range effectively in an environment that offers more objects of known size ie vehicles. Trained task.

For everyone else who has mil reticle and LRF you can mess with rhis anytime your out. Hey
It’s easy to practice and verify your results with your rangefinder. A lot of times there’s not much else to do while your out. If guys can go cold on live deer and come up with only a 5-10 percent error, imagine how well they would do after 2
Weeks practicing. Happy Thanksgiving Boudreaux.

If anyone is worried that familiarity born of practice with the technique will make you a less effective hunter- I say avoid it.

This set-up or something very close to it!! IMHO you can't go wrong with the 30-06.

grin, life is easier inside 300 yards

I hope you have good hunting boots.

I vote for a Ruger Hawkeye in 30-06 loaded with 168TTSX with a Leupold 6x

This is the KISS set up.

Regardless of all the recommendations, when the right rig is in YOUR hands, you know it. Warm and fuzzy matters...

No contest. I'll take my Ruger MKII stainless/boat-paddle (skeletonized stock) .30-06. Burris Fullfield II with Ballistic Plex reticle, which is what it currently wears.

Range finder or no, same choice.

LOL.

That's whole lot of fail to pack into one post.

Congrats.

Thats funny! I have met Shrapnel and seen a couple of his inpressive mounts. Maybe a few of his rifles. Talked guns and hunting with him over dinner. He is a good guy and knows a thing or two. I would take his advice long before your snake oil. He has nothing to gain here just answering a post. Try not to be such a dick!