Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Savage Collectors Savage vs Savage Fox vs Fox Shotguns - What's What?

I thought I'd kick up some dust on a subject that has been talked about indirectly in past threads but, as far as I know, has never been a direct topic of conversation. I've had a "sideline" interest in Savage shotguns for some time now but I really don't know how to sort through the universe of Savage, Savage Fox and Fox guns. For instance, some of the later Savage Fox shotguns look to me like a gussied up 311. Is this correct? So for those in the know how does all this stuff go together. Many thanks.

Drew got into the Fox shotguns quite a bit. I've never looked at them much, don't know the $2000 ones from the $300 ones.

Double gun fanatics will never forgive Savage for what they did to the Fox shotgun, but what the heck it's all water under the bridge now.

Suffice to say the Savage Fox doesn't hold a candle to the original Fox. It's not even the same action. All the two have in common is they're both box locks. After they absorbed Fox they kept original's production going for a time, but quality went downhill fairly fast. Then when they dropped Fox production entirely, some time later they re-branded the "top end" 311 Savage (albeit with nicer wood, checkering, "engraving", etc.) as the Fox, or Savage Fox if you will.

Best thing I can say if you take umbrage with my thoughts is to hold a late "Fox" side by side with an original A.H.Fox, even a Fox Sterlingworth, and compare the two. That's not to say a Savage Fox isn't built hell-for-stout, but it's all about fit and finish and weight and balance in the world of double guns.

Savage Fox shotguns are nice old school style shotguns, Fox shotguns i.e. Model B and Model BSE not so much. While the later guns are walnut and steel they are kind of clubby, lacking the feel of the earlier guns. The B & BSE models have vent rib barrels and right smack at the breech end of the rib is a phillips head screw, pretty hideous.

I have a pre-war Fox Model B, 20 ga. with the black gun metal frame. Really like the way it looks and handles....

I only have Savage Fox BSE. 20 ga, 3" 28" bbls, bit for $300 and auto ejectors I ain't complaining. Most of case is gone but it doesn't shoot bad for a clunky sxs.

I have lusted after a Philadelphia Fox for a long time, but they were always out of reach. About eight months ago, I ran across a Philadelphia Sterlingworth, in what looked to me to be virtually new condition. I brought it to the Wisconsin Fest, but there didn't seem to be any shotgun experts there. If I am not mistaken, the graded Savage Fox shotguns were very good quality, the Sterlingworth not so much. The later Savage guns, 5300, etc., were superior to what was produced once the 311 and Model B came about.

I've got a mint Model B 12 gauge with cut checkering, 1961. It is a beautiful gun. I'll never hunt or shoot it. Thought about listing it for sale a time or two.

Interesting stuff, especially about the Savage Fox and the 311. There are some Savage Fox guns that save for some panels under the breech look like a reworked 311 action. It may be time to begin my education on Fox shotguns. Thanks guys!

The Fox Sterlingworth uses the same action as the higher graded Fox doubles. They all had the same expensive handwork that killed all the classic doubles after WWII. The Savage/Fox Model B and the Stevens Model 311 are not in the same class of quality as the Sterlingworth basic grade and the higher grades. When Savage bought Fox around 1930 (I think) they still provided great quality shotguns.

I did a fast look at Fox shotguns on GunBroker last night and they are a bit pricey. I guess I should follow that personal "revelation" by quoting Homer Simpson, "DOWT"

Probably one of the most knowledgable gun guys out there is Dave Noreen who goes by Researcher on most forums. He gave me permission to post the text and links below which cover just about everything you might want to know about the differences between Philly Foxes, Savage era Foxes and Savage utility guns. I copied and pasted the information for Fox Sterlingworths and provided the link for the Savage utility guns. I've also included the link for the Fox Collectors Forum Homepage which goes into great detail about the different grades of Foxes. There is a ton of good information to read.

This is my everything you might want to know about Sterlingworths post that hasn't been posted for a while.

Sterlingworth -- When Ansley H. Fox, was forced to add a lower priced gun to his line of graded Ansley H. Fox guns, in 1910, he didn't want to detract from the A.H. Fox Gun Co. name, so they dummied up "The Sterlingworth Company." The first year’s guns, beginning with serial number 50,000, were marked as being "Made By The Sterlingworth Company, Philadelphia, U.S.A." Actually the first few hundred were marked "Wayne Junction" instead of Philadelphia. They even produced a separate The Sterlingworth Gun Co. catalogue for 1910. These guns were built under the same patents as the graded Ansley H. Fox guns. The main moneysaving features were an American Black Walnut (Juglans nigra) stock as opposed to the more costly European thin shell walnut (Juglans regia) stocks on the graded guns, and the "Sterlingworth Fluid Steel" barrels instead of Krupp Fluid Steel barrels. Workmanship on these early Sterlingworths was generally excellent, better than graded guns from the 1920's and 30's. The early "The Sterlingworth Company" guns had a rounded front for the side panel of the frames. According to my list of observed specimens that was changed to the same pointed profile as the graded guns by #51,301.

In 1911 this field grade gun was added to the A.H. Fox Gun Co. catalogue as the Model 1911. "Model 1911" is stamped in the forearm iron. (A very few graded guns made about this time are stamped Model 1910) The lowest Model 1911 serial number I've recorded is #53,140. All of these early Sterlingworths had a recessed hinge-pin head like Parkers, or Ansley's earlier guns made in Baltimore and the Philadelphia Arms Company A.H. Fox gun. The highest "pin gun" Sterlingworth serial number I've recorded is # 62,244. After that Sterlingworth hinge-pins are dressed smooth like the graded guns. When the small-bores (16- and 20-gauge) were added to the Ansley H. Fox line they were briefly referred to in some flyers as the Model 1912, but I've never seen one so stamped. Graded 20-gauge guns have serial numbers beginning with 200,000 and 20-gauge Sterlingworths 250,000. Graded 16-gauge guns have serial numbers beginning with 300,000 and 16-gauge Sterlingworths 350,000.

Most of the Philadelphia produced S-worths had the word "Sterlingworth" roll stamped on each side of the frame. After production moved to Utica, Savage started using a "Fox-Sterlingworth" roll stamp.

When the Sterlingworth came out in 1910 it had a price of $25. The price stayed at $25 thru 1916, then climbed quickly to $55 by 1919. A.H. Fox Gun Co. reduced the price to $48 in 1922 and again to $36.50 in 1926. Workmanship of course declined.
Parker Bros. introduced their Trojan Grade at $25.50 raising it almost immediately to $27.50 in 1912. The Trojan’s price climbed like the Sterlingworth to $55. Parker Bros. kept the price and the quality of the Trojan high and sold about 33000 total. Fox began cutting the price of the Sterlingworth and sold well over 100000.

Savage kept the $36.50 price until June 1932 when they upped it to $39.50. On February 10, 1936, they upped the price again to $42.85 (the digits 2 and 8 are transposed in McIntosh's book). On February 1, 1938, Savage tried a price cut and dropped it to $35. February 1, 1939, they upped the price to $44.75. January 2, 1940, up again to $48.50. January 2, 1941, up to $52.65 and June 16 up again to $56.50. January 2, 1942, up again to $64.95.

There were more 12-gauge Sterlingworths made than any other Fox double (some 94000, the great majority with 30- or 28-inch barrels), so unless in exceptionally high condition or with features such as automatic ejectors or factory original 26- or 32-inch barrels, they are about an $800 gun. It is impossible to truly evaluate a gun with out having it in hand, but average 12-gauge Sterlingworths are about $800 guns.

To Phily or Utica, That Is The Question – As with all American doubles earlier the Ansley H. Fox gun the better the workmanship, and quality of wood grade for grade. I have seen some pretty lame very late Utica Fox-Sterlingworths. I haven’t observed that much of a decline in the quality of the graded Ansley H. Fox guns built by Savage. They seem to remain pretty much the same as the late 1920s Philadelphia built guns, except for the uglier profile of some of the top-levers, and the bulkier forearm wood, which some like and some don’t.

The older guns often have more drop at heel than most people like today. The standard drop-at-heel for Philadelphia vintage Sterlingworths was 3-inches for 26-inch (Brush) and 28-inch (Field) barreled guns, and 2 3/4 - inch for 30-inch (Standard) and 32-inch (Trap). Names in () how factory referred to various barrel length Sterlingworths. Stock dimensions were to order on graded guns so anything is possible. I have a 1914 A-grade 12-gauge straight-grip that came from the factory with 2 1/4 inch drop-at-heel. A friend has an AE-grade 20-gauge with 3 1/2 - inch drop-at-heel! All the Savage vintage catalogues list 2 3/4 inch drop-at-heel as standard for all barrel length Sterlingworths. Later guns also tend to have their barrels a little less finely struck and hence weigh a bit more. While the Sterlingworth was always stocked with American Black Walnut (Juglans nigra), pre WW-I graded guns were all stocked in European Walnut (Juglans regia). After WW-I only XE-grade and above were listed in the catalogues with Juglans regia, and by the last Savage catalogue all mention of European Walnut had disappeared.

The change-over was gradual and occurs in 12-gauge guns through serial numbers in the high 12x,xxx range. The earliest Utica marked 12-gauge S-worth I've recorded is 128,419. (some outlayer 32-inch Savage marked guns in the 1220xx and 1230xx range) These early Utica guns are just like late Phily guns with the sleek toplever, slim forearm and capped pistol grip with the flat-topped diamonds for checkering. The barrel markings are in lettering at least twice as large as the Philly S-worths and is something like -- Sterlingworth Fluid Compressed Steel -- Made for Savage Arms Corp., Utica, NY by A.H. Fox -- . I don't have one in front of me so don't hold my feet to the fire on the exact wording. The ugly Savage top lever, the bulky forearm, the coarse pointed checkering, the Special Alloy Forged Steel barrels and the capless pistol grip stocks seem to begin appearing in the 132,xxx range in 12-gauge Fox-Sterlingworths. The capless pistol grip is first pictured in the 1937 catalogue. By the 138,xxx range, capped pistol grips begin appearing randomly again!?!

Also you have to remember, that the workers were grabbing parts out of bins and assembling guns. I have a Fox-Sterlingworth Ejector Brush in the 160,xxx range and it has barrels marked Sterlingworth Fluid Compressed Steel, the sleek Philly top lever and safety slide, the bulky forearm and the capped pistol grip stock with the coarse pointed checkering.

In 16-gauge S-worths the change seems to begin appearing in the 367,4xx range, but barrels seem to be still marked Sterlingworth Fluid Compressed steel into the low 370,xxx range. The change over in 20-gauge Sterlingworths seems to be spread out from the low 259,xxx to the high 262,xxx range.

So, the competing factors are... Early gun - better workmanship and wood quality, but short chambers and likely poorer stock dimensions. Later gun - better stock dimensions and modern chamber lengths, but poorer workmanship and lower quality wood.

The term "Deluxe" was never used in reference to Sterlingworth guns of the Philadelphia period, just Sterlingworth or Sterlingworth Ejector, brush (26"), field (28"), standard (30") or trap (32"). Beginning in 1930 Savage used the term Fox-Sterlingworth-Deluxe or Fox-Sterlingworth-Deluxe-Ejector to indicate a gun equipped with a recoil pad and twin ivory sights.

Fox-Sterlingworth Deluxe
Fox-Sterlingworth Deluxe intro January 2, 1930.jpg (29.71 KiB) Viewed 767 times


These of course were options available on the Sterlingworth from the beginning, but the term Deluxe was purely Savage period term. Also the Deluxe was only cataloged for 28- or 30-inch barrels in 12-gauge and 28-inch barrels in 16- or 20-gauge. The extra cost for a Deluxe was $3, while buying the individual options of a recoil pad was $5 and the twin ivory sights were $1.50 in 1931. By 1940 Deluxe was still $3 extra but the individual options had dropped in price through the years to $3.50 and $1.10.

As to weights, it seems from my experience, you can find guns that fall outside the catalogued weights from most all periods. A 12-gauge 30-inch Sterlingworth was catalogued at 7 1/2 to 7 3/4 pounds in Philly period catalogues and 7 1/4 to 7 3/4 pounds in the Savage period catalogues. I have a Philly gun at 7 pounds 3.2 ounces and a Utica gun at 7 pounds 0.8 ounces, both original butt plates to muzzles.

You really need to evaluate each gun on its own merits, how it fits you, and meets your needs.

FOX CHAMBERS --

The only two A.H. Fox Gun Co. catalogues, that I have seen, that state chamber lengths are the 1913 and 1914. They both state 12-gauge guns are regularly chambered for 2 3/4 - inch shells, 16-gauge 2 9/16 – inch shells and 20-gauge 2 1/2 - inch shells. That being said, virtually every 12-gauge Ansley H. Fox gun made in Philadelphia (other than the HE-Grade Super-Fox) that I've run a chamber gauge in shows about 2 5/8 - inch. The chambers of unmolested 16-gauge guns seem to run about 2 7/16 inch and 20-gauge guns a hair over 2 3/8 inch. A very few graded guns were ordered with longer chambers. Savage began stating chambered for 2 ¾ inch shells in their 1938 Fox catalogues.

All this being said there is a good body of evidence that back in those days chambers were held about 1/8 inch shorter than the shells for which they were intended. In the book The Parker Story the Remington vintage specification sheets on pages 164 to 169 call for a chamber 1/8-inch shorter than the shell for which it is intended. Also in the 1930's there were a couple of articles in The American Rifleman (July 1936 and March 1938) on the virtue of short chambers. A series by Sherman Bell in The Double Gun Journal showed no significant increase in pressure from shooting shells in slightly short chambers. IMHO I don't much sweat that 1/8-inch in 12-gauge guns. On the other hand when one gets a 20-gauge chambered at 2 3/8-inch likely intended for 2 1/2-inch shells I do worry about folks firing 2 3/4-inch shells in such guns.

Also, Askins mentions (Modern Shotguns and Loads, 1929) that for the last 3 years or so the US makers started to hold their chambers shorter since the constriction made when shooting 2-3/4" loads in 2-5/8" chambers was found to improve patterning.



http://www.16ga.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=21585

https://www.foxcollectors.com/

Wow, thanks a ton!!!

I thought I throw out some eye candy.

From the top: An XE, CE, early B and early A.



Closeups of the XE





Closeups of the CE

Very nice. So I take it those pointed panels under the barrels are a hallmark of Fox guns and their Savage made counterparts? Like I said earlier, some of the Savage made Fox shotguns look like they have 311 receivers with those panels milled in. Did Savage ever use the 311 as a platform for selling the Fox name? Thanks again!

I always said if I couldn't have an L.C.Smith, it would have to be an A.H.Fox, if one had to accept a lack of side plates.

gnoahhh, I forgot that you were a Smith man.

I was about to post this picture of my restored Fox 16 gauge Sterlingworth so I thought I'd throw this picture of my customized Smith FW as well. 16 gauge of course.

Ooooooh!!

Well crap, you just can’t leave a thing like that hanging. Say something about the restoration work. That’s a fantastic looking shotgun.

Beautiful guns guys, and very interesting to learn more about the Fox line of guns. Dad had a Savage-Fox Model B in 20 gauge that my brother ended up with when we split up Dad's guns after he passed. It's a good little gun, and I like the looks of that gun much better than the newer ones with the heavy forestocks. The higher end stuff I'll just have to dream about. I always have lusted after the Sterlingworth's but that's about as high up the food chain as my budget would ever allow.