Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Gunsmithing How in the name of God does a gunsmith make any profit

I wish being a plumber would have been near as fun as building precision rifles... but they don’t spend much on tools ...

Sorry I had to get that off my chest...

I decided to buy my tooling before the lathe and Mill ... I’m almost done, but wow... the tooling is NOT cheap...
I choose to go for higher quality and or precision stuff... so.. it hurts.

I’ve always heard to make a million as a gunsmith, start out with 2 million.. and it takes at least 3 years to cover your start up costs...

All I can say is Woof !! thank God I had a day job.
Looking forward to it though... all the school, training, tooling...

Spot

buy used. Should be a lot of old quality tooling out there with everyone going to CNC

my local average joe gunsmith makes a ton, in my estimation.

sometimes i wish i had become a gunsmith instead of a plumber. no, but seriously i don't think they're doing all that badly around ne georgia at least.

like auto repair, there's all kinds of different levels of service it seems like. a mercedes dealer repair shop charges differently than the local tire shop.

i've thought for a long time that everybody before they get married becomes proficient at basic gun repair, real estate sales, and basic home repairs including construction, wiring, plumbing, painting and landscaping. the wife can do the rest.

Talk big.
Be arrogant.
Charge a little more than the competition.

Get a gun in a magazine.


Pretty soon you will be "special".

Now charge a lot more.

[quote=Spotshooter]I wish being a plumber would have been near as fun as building precision rifles... but they don’t spend much on tools ...

Sorry I had to get that off my chest...

I decided to buy my tooling before the lathe and Mill ... I’m almost done, but wow... the tooling is NOT cheap...
I choose to go for higher quality and or precision stuff... so.. it hurts.

I’ve always heard to make a million as a gunsmith, start out with 2 million.. and it takes at least 3 years to cover your start up costs...

All I can say is Woof !! thank God I had a day job.
Looking forward to it though... all the school, training, tooling...

Spot[/quote

How do you know building "precision rifles" is fun if you are just now getting the tooling? I will tell you like I told my youngest son (who wants to be a professional bass fisherman), ANYTHING you do as a profession will eventually become a job! I built custom rifles while working a full time shift job AND farming/ranching on the side. The only time I had to work on them was in the mornings or evenings after "work". It was fun for a while and then it was just tedious. The only time I enjoy it now is of I am doing if for someone as a gift. Be careful what you wish for!!!

totally agree, when it becomes a job then the fun is gone

I got lucky when I bought my bridge port the tooling I got with it was worth more then then price of the mill. The machines are cheap compared to the tooling.

Willicd,

I have experienced that and to your point, sometimes it’s unavoidable.
For me, it’s a retirement career change business, so I don’t have to do work I don’t want to, in order to pay the rent.

That and - It’s about craftsmanship, Engineering, and the final product is something to be proud of... and it’s shooting !!!
Not to mention that I get to learn vs. teach again... There are a lot of very skilled knowledgeable people out there, and learning new techniques, and tricks is a blast.
Anyway - It becoming work is always a pitfall, but if you love most of the aspects of your work, it makes life a bit easier.

On the cost side -

I’m trying to spend smart... so I am essentially mentoring under a master gunsmith who’s guiding me on what to get, what’s important and what isn’t.
Spending smart doesn’t mean going cheap however...

I’m planning on a new Mathews Ultra Preicion with DRO’s, and a new JET mill or mill drill..

I went with Aloris tool posts, and high quality tooling - cry once... but just like everyone else, when you realize good tooling can easily run you up to 20k... for startup costs, that lathe starts looking a lot cheaper.

I’m just looking forward to making my own precision rifles.. I already ordered 2 customer reamers - I’m ordering my 6 Creedmoor customer reamer for my PRS build today.

Don't even think about the mill/drill... Trust me - get a good knee mill - and JET makes a decent machine for the bux..

Redneck,

I hear you- I really want to run one before I pick it up, so I’ll be trying to find a showroom here shortly.

For work on small pieces - I have a small Grizzly benchtop mill, and a Sheridan mini-lathe for years now... once I got my dial gauges, levels and indicators my work significantly improved, but with higher quality machines out there - well there are a good number to choose from.

I don’t plan on doing bench rest so I don’t the entire stock length for table travel. I still have mixed feelings on how big a table I get, I’m trying to get smart yet conservative on size.. which always conflict with each other. I just don’t have as much time on larger mills as I’d like, so it makes deciding a bit harder.

I think I will be going to the shot show this year... first time for me.

I know Grizzly is typically there, but I doubt I’ll Find the models I’m looking at.

There is a serious lack of gunsmiths in this area, downright pitiful. The ones that are around do shoddy work and charge like D'Arcy Echols

Lack of a decent income is why firearms industry is short on gunsmiths. A gunsmiths shop hourly rate needs to be $100.00 plus for them to stay in business.

Automotive consultant guidelines for hourly shop rates is a great guide for setting hourly retail rate. That guide is highest tech hourly wage plus bennies divided by .3 and then divide that answer by .8. This gives the hourly rate to charge customers.

A good gunsmith should make a minimum wage of 60,000 per year with two weeks of vacation. Based on that earnings level, (covering shop overhead, tooling costs, insurance, accounting, bad debts, holidays, advertising, time waste with BS'rs, training, rework) his posted retail rate will need to be 125.00 per hour. Most gun owners would howl at that kind of rate. However, for a smith to stay in business, he has to be at that level. Too many gun smiths under price themselves in an effort to keep gun owners happy. The result is that they soon exit the business.

One other fact, many low dollar valued firearms are not worth repairing. It is cheaper to buy new than to repair.

I am going to have a revolver worked on this week by a very competent smith. He'll probably have slightly over two hours in the job. My bill will be 425.00 and I'm ok with that bill.

Stay legal...

If you're looking to make good money, don't get into gunsmithing. The gun business is the only trade that relies on charity to exist. By that I mean most folks do it because they love guns and if they were doing something else that required as much skill and training they'd make three times the money.

I've done business with some of the very best gunsmiths anywhere. None drives a Rolls.

Heck yes !

And yes, there is no way I’m going to get rich.... it’s supplemental, but again covering costs is nutz.

They work way to cheap.

Let me tell you the facts as a retired gunsmith. Its a labor of love and not for getting big profits but there are some good Perks. My shop was in central CA on the coast. Santa Cruz. I was kept pretty busy as my reputation was not to bad. The initial monthly out lay was for insurance, security alarm, dealing with the ATF and state tax board on retail sale can also be included as a time consuming burden. The positive procedures dealing with firearm sale were nowhere as troubling as they are now in CA. which has hurt a lot of the smaller shops and driven them out of business as it is so time consuming. Besides repair one of my main things to do was building custom stocks which I loved doing. One downside to this was after the job was done if something happened and you were not paid the law would only let you sell the firearm for what you had in it for material and you could not recoupe your labor. The most problem time was just before and especially the night before Duck season opened. Might as well not going to bed in this time frame as "Gosh, I forgot to clean my shotgun after I put it away last season and it seems like its not right" and Dan I need to get my duck stamp and some ammo sorry to bother you at this time. Doctors and Lawyers were the most common abusers of their firearms. Now some of the perks that helped smooth things out. Was invited to shoot on most of the Duck clubs by customers and could Deer hunt on almost any ranch in the central coast. Like one customer said, "you can mess with your Doctor or Lawyer but its hands off your Gunsmith". Did I enjoy the job and the long hours, yes, would I do it again in CA., no way

The last statistic I heard years ago(1990's ) was that gunsmith school grads only have about 15% of graduates work in the field. I was retiring ealy and was thinking about enrolling in a gunsmith school.

I know of several gunsmiths who have left the business, or who have moved from full-time to part-time, because they were unable to earn enough to pay the bills. I know one guy who stocks shelves at Wal-Mart from 11PM - 7AM so that he can afford health insurance for his family. It is a sad situation.

I'll second Redneck's comment. A good knee mill beats the snot outta a mill/drill.

When I started looking at mills, years ago, I considered a mill/drill. After much advice (which for the most part I followed) I bought a Powermatic/Burke. Nice mill, about 80% the size of a Bridgeport Series I. Unfortunately, table travel was limited and were options for tilting the head. In the end I sent the Powermatic/Burke down the road for more than I paid for it, w/o any tooling. Enter the Bridgeport. Constant perusing of Craigslist netted a Series I, fairly local, for about what I sold the Powermatic/Burk for. I since added a DRO, and VFD.

Note: Used vertical mills, be it Bridgeports or their clones seem to cyclic in price - very up and down, and condition seems to mean nothing to the seller. I've seen Bridgeport Series I's sell for $1000. To months later a similar mill brought $2500.

As many have said above, it's mainly used now for supplemental income and/or a job for retirees.. Only way to make 'decent' money is (1) get specialized in a niche and/or (2) get big - really, really big.. Like, 3-6 employees in one shop.. (Think Ahlmans or Laib's, for example..)

I did a lot of general work for a few years before I decided to ditch the areas I didn't like and concentrate on those I enjoyed - hence the fact that I don't work on handguns and only a few shotguns that are heavily favored by the locals.. Other than that, the Model 70 is what I know and like to work on best..

I'll be 70 in ten days... I'll do this for another 4-5 years, then hang it up.. Whoever might need a good mill and lathe at that time, gimme a call...

Finding parts for obsolete guns can be a pain in the neck. Some customers show up the night before deer season and want an old firearm repaired and assume you have all of the parts just laying around in your shop. Sometimes finding original parts can take a very long time, and sometimes you never find them.

^^^^^^

My post in this thread may have come across as nasty.
But, this is what I meant.

That's why most 'smiths, after a few years, realize that those 'obsolete' guns are - many times - just not worth the time/trouble to fix.. Plus, then the customer is expecting a 50+ year-old gun should only cost $20-30 to get going again. About 10 years ago, I began to wean off those items from my services.. Those really never pay to even attempt to get running again (think Rem 742s and their ilk)..

That. I try to keep the most commonly required items on hand for firearms that are very often used in this area.. I don't charge extra for 'rush' jobs - customers appreciate that and it's why I continue to have these same people show up at my shop.

The only thing you can do is have the customer source the parts. Otherwise you get killed on hours.

What if the customer doesn't know what he needs? What if he has NO idea how to disassemble, fully, a (say) M742 or M100 in order to see (if he can) what is needed?

Nope - just refuse to even take 'em in.. First time I saw this actually, was in Rapid City at First Stop Gun & Pawn.. They had a sign behind the counter that basically said 'don't even THINK of asking us to work on..", then a fairly long list of about 20-25 firearms that they simply refuse to consider.. A great place, BTW..

I've never seen a customer that couldn't bring in a box of parts!

"Uh... well of course they are all there." LOL!

Gunsmith #1
Randy Ketchum died in 2013. He owned a gun store and did gunsmithing.
He always had a bible with him.
He built a C02 powered semi auto pistol that fired Aguila Colibri ammo.
He built a motorcycle supercharger from scratch.
He put a rifle barrel in my Tokarev pistol and it works.
He put a Marlin 444 barrel in my Ruger 44 carbine and it works.

I have interviewed a lot of engineers and have some idea of how much we pay for how smart a guy.
Randy was paying taxes on $30k/year.
Randy could have worked as an engineer and we would pay him 3X or 4X what he was making as a gunsmith.

Gunsmith #2
I am not giving his name.
He drives a Porsche.

Does he have a gun rack in the back windshield of that Porsche?

That wouldn't make him a bad guy!

Where I live the closest qualified smith is 90 miles away. All the rest have stopped. Big shops don't have a smith anymore (at least last time I checked) and Jack First in Rapid City is now parts only. The reason there are fewer and fewer shops is most people won't pay what it costs to get quality work done.

......and to put up with gov't bullchit....

Happy Birthday, Redneck!!

I've been fortunate in having some decent tooling at my disposal, but unfortunate in not having formal training to operate them. I can get by though, and don't mind taking a couple stabs at a project until I get it right- it's my time and I don't charge myself anything. I find lathe work to be the most satisfying and it comes easiest to me. I recently upgraded from an old Cincinnati mill and a prehistoric Sebastian lathe- a late model Acra mill and Hardinge tool room lathe now graces my shop, all analog no digital. A good used surface grinder is next on the list. Luckily a recently retired tool&diemaker buddy has agreed to spend time "learning me up some more".

I guess if I simply paid a machinist or tool&die man (notice I didn't say "gunsmith"- no cats of that breed live around here) to execute all my ideas I would be a lot farther ahead financially, but where's the fun in that?

If one consistently does timely and excellent work, the public will constantly be at the door.

1minute,

As a long-time custom gunsmith I know well once said. "It takes an awful lot of recoil-pad installations to pay the bills."

Which is one reason why there aren't many general-repair gunsmiths around anymore, and specialists tend to be the ones who survive--though very few make a better than average living.

hat

John...is the fact that not many general-repair gunsmiths around these days just a coincidence that these "throwaway" rifles, as many call them, are so prevalent today? Or is the question of liability also a cause? Or is strictly simple economics the full culprit in your opinion? Or a combination of factors?

Here is what I did....I bought my lathe first....then bought reamers as the jobs come...the first job for that reamer was just going to pay for the reamer..after 10 years I had a full stock...after about 3 years I had enough money to buy a bridgport and many other tools as needed...it was all financed out of pocket with my day job...never figured to make a living at it just love to do it...

Here is what I did....I bought my lathe first....then bought reamers as the jobs come...the first job for that reamer was just going to pay for the reamer..after 10 years I had a full stock...after about 3 years I had enough money to buy a bridgport and many other tools as needed...it was all financed out of pocket with my day job...never figured to make a living at it just love to do it...


I agree ...they think it like fixing there truck...and parts come from Napa...that's why I avoid general repair work...And shotguns..it actually eats up more time looking for parts than the actual fix...I'll fix stuff only for good customers as a favor that understand...

I have talked to a couple of gunsmiths that told me they make more money mounting scopes and cleaning guns than repairing them. Some people amaze me the way they assume that there is a warehouse down the street that has an unlimited amount of spare parts for Arisakas, Enfields, etc.

The biggest money maker for me when I was doing general gunsmithing was drilling/tapping shotguns and mounting scopes on them. Takes about 10-15 minutes to drill and tap 4 holes and I got 10.00 per hole back then. That was in a shotgun zone for deer back in the days before rifled and cantilevered slug barrels. Also made quite a bit cutting down bird barrels and mounting rifle sights on them.

I always thought it would be fun to be a farmer.
How do I get started?

Buy a thousand acres (at $7,000.00+/acre), then you'll need 2-3 million dollars for basic equipment, and only another $350,000.00 or so for seed/fertilizer/weed control.....

Then pray you get some decent weather... Piece of cake..

Ok I've narrowed it down to either a rock star, or a motocross racer.
Then after I retire I will open up a gunsmithing shop.
I will specialize in general repair and charge $125.00 per hr.

Having a "hobby" "gunsmith" working on your rifles is akin to having your dentist do your knee replacement!

Lemme tell ya a story about a customer of mine about ten years ago. Called me up to ask if I could put iron sights on his rifle (can't recall the model).. He brought it in and I told him it'd be ready by tomorrow.. He said he brought it to Gander Mountain (at the time) and they were going to do it there. He asked how they would install them. GM "gunsmith" said, "we just 'eye-ball' them"..

He grabbed the rifle and left... I just LMAO when he told me that..

I got a kick out of customers who would buy a scope and new rifle from one of the big department stores and then ask us to mount it for them.

Hey what's 45 or 50 thousand psi, six inches away from your grey matter?

I have a couple of lathes and a mill all dro, a small surface grinder and everything to build a rifle from scratch....including a stock duplicator.

I make my living as a hydromechanic. It pays better and more consistent than guns. I have a pile of money wrapped up in this stuff and my "plan" is to be able to retire and make a supplemental income.