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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 58,755 Likes: 56
Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 58,755 Likes: 56 |
Safe is never not safe.
NOTHING is more safe,than an empty chamber.
Hint...............
Brad says: "Can't fault Rick for his pity letting you back on the fire... but pity it was and remains. Nothing more, nothing less. A sad little man in a sad little dream."
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Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 12,168 Likes: 16
Campfire Outfitter
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OP
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 12,168 Likes: 16 |
Safe is never not safe.
NOTHING is more safe,than an empty chamber.
Hint...............
Whether the chamber is empty or full we still have Rule #1. Statically, On Safe is much safer than Off Safe.
John Burns
I have all the sources. They can't stop the signal.
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 4,189 Likes: 1
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 4,189 Likes: 1 |
Unit SOP applies to field and guard duty carry. But for armorer duty, all rifles in racks for storage were hammer down after chamber cleared, function check performed, ejection port cover closed, no magazine.
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 58,755 Likes: 56
Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 58,755 Likes: 56 |
Safe is never not safe.
NOTHING is more safe,than an empty chamber.
Hint...............
Whether the chamber is empty or full we still have Rule #1. Statically, On Safe is much safer than Off Safe. Visibly...NOBODY can discern chamber condition. Mechanically,it's a breeze to get a read on the hammer. Hint................
Brad says: "Can't fault Rick for his pity letting you back on the fire... but pity it was and remains. Nothing more, nothing less. A sad little man in a sad little dream."
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Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 3,395 Likes: 2
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 3,395 Likes: 2 |
that is why I consistently do the same thing and will never change. I am not going to start leaving my hammer back on an empty chamber because someone says "this is the new best way keep your safety on and your nickers dry" forget it. Feel free to post the bestest post in the whole world and laud each other over its wondercality. safety off nothing in the chamber, safety on the gun is ready to fire. ? Did someone tell you that you have to do something? I addressed what another posted. I don’t care what you do. There are places that have techniques and practices in place due to seeing relatively large numbers of skilled users utilize different techniques, and seeing issues that happen over and over.
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 58,755 Likes: 56
Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 58,755 Likes: 56 |
A cocked hammer isn't a fhuqking '"technique".
"Littlle" things matter.
Hint........................
Brad says: "Can't fault Rick for his pity letting you back on the fire... but pity it was and remains. Nothing more, nothing less. A sad little man in a sad little dream."
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Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 21,981 Likes: 11
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 21,981 Likes: 11 |
Safety off. Chamber empty. Dust cover closed. Hammer down. (Usually) Have been known to forget and leave the bolt locked. But that doesn't change the, insert mag and pull charging handle drill. (Does make it rough though)
Parents who say they have good kids..Usually don't!
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Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 10,365
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 10,365 |
safety off on empty chamber
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Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 27,091
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 27,091 |
Safety off. Nothing loaded in the chamber.
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Joined: Dec 2017
Posts: 94
Campfire Greenhorn
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Campfire Greenhorn
Joined: Dec 2017
Posts: 94 |
I don't store my AR. It's ready for HD at all times; that's it's job. Magazine full, hammer cocked,safety off, bolt closed on an empty chamber. Muzzle down for grip grab. Put into action or the case for the range, it all happens at the low ready. It's too easy with an AR staged muzzle up to grab it, and point it at your own body.
Last edited by JeffG818; 12/03/18.
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Joined: Jan 2015
Posts: 341
Campfire Member
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Campfire Member
Joined: Jan 2015
Posts: 341 |
This is a training issue. I am a huge proponent of safeties on until your rifle is oriented towards your target. There is no delay by disengaging the safety. It takes way more time to make the decision to shoot than presenting the gun. During presentation the safety comes off. There is no down side to the mechanical safety
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 18,352 Likes: 1
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 18,352 Likes: 1 |
well I am convinced! Will also start carrying my CCW without a round in the chamber and walking to my deer stands with an empty chamber! Real wisdom here! I just have to wonder what the engineers were thinking when they designed such a stupid trigger system that would not go to safety when the hammer was down?? Crazy.. also I almost stepped on this guy Sunday afternoon in GA, kind of late for a timber rattler but there he was. Thank the Lord my Roberts had a round in the chamber and I did not have to move to much except just point and click. yes on the training issue, I am trained and consistent in doing things a certain way.
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Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 12,168 Likes: 16
Campfire Outfitter
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OP
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 12,168 Likes: 16 |
Safe is never not safe. NOTHING is more safe,than an empty chamber. Hint...............
Whether the chamber is empty or full we still have Rule #1. Statically, On Safe is much safer than Off Safe. Visibly...NOBODY can discern chamber condition. Mechanically,it's a breeze to get a read on the hammer. Hint................ Chamber empty or full does not change anything in our gun handling if we are following Rule #1. If the selector is on safe I am more likely to press check to verify a loaded chamber than an empty chamber.
John Burns
I have all the sources. They can't stop the signal.
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 19,825 Likes: 3
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 19,825 Likes: 3 |
Last edited by APDDSN0864; 12/04/18. Reason: Duplicate post
"Not in an open forum, where truth has less value than opinions, where all opinions are equally welcome regardless of their origins, rationale, inanity, or truth, where opinions are neither of equal value nor decisive." Ken Howell
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 19,825 Likes: 3
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 19,825 Likes: 3 |
For those who say that they can disengage the safety as fast as the above-mentioned practice. Try doing it while someone is shooting at you. It does make a difference.
Ed
No, it does not. Being shot at is nothing but an emotional response. Using the safety is nothing but a habitual action. Someone that believes it takes longer to flip the safety than it does to bring the rifle up to aim at a target does not have the skill level to be talking about either. Gunhandling is not about what happens when we are present and in the moment. It is for when we are thinking of everything else besides the gun. If you are ever going to use the safety, use it every time that you are not aimed at a target, finger on trigger. Cheek comes off of the stock- finger straight, safety on. You left out slightly lowering the muzzle, giving a full view to better assess the situation.As to how much time it takes to flip the safety vs. raising the rifle to acquire the target, you are absolutely right. The same as finger off the trigger until you have identified the threat, made the decision to engage, and have acquired a sight picture.. It is also a function of training to the point of unconscious competence. That level of competence only comes with thousands of repetitions, and having learned how to get past the emotional response. For the most part, most of the people here do not have that level of experience. I also know that almost anyone can learn how to do it. I do have the skill level brought on by experience to talk about it. If you care to PM me, I'll be glad to share my background. Ed
"Not in an open forum, where truth has less value than opinions, where all opinions are equally welcome regardless of their origins, rationale, inanity, or truth, where opinions are neither of equal value nor decisive." Ken Howell
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 4,189 Likes: 1
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 4,189 Likes: 1 |
Step one of clearing the M16/M4 rifle is to attempt to place the weapon on SAFE. ALWAYS! Whatever happens during that step should speak volumes.
"Press check" an AR platform?
Hammer down on a cleared chamber is the statistically proven safest storage procedure proven by the US Gov't. It is built into the Manual of Arms, and follows every Inspection Arms (Ready, Order, Arms) and Function Check. A trigger can NOT be tripped with the hammer down.
Safety "On SAFE" means the hammer is cocked. NOTHING gets storage with a cocked hammer. Nothing.
Carry hot? Chamber hot, safety ON.
Carry cleared, Magazine or no magazine, chamber clear, hammer down.
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Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 3,395 Likes: 2
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 3,395 Likes: 2 |
Step one of clearing the M16/M4 rifle is to attempt to place the weapon on SAFE. ALWAYS! Whatever happens during that step should speak volumes.
"Press check" an AR platform?
Hammer down on a cleared chamber is the statistically proven safest storage procedure proven by the US Gov't. It is built into the Manual of Arms, and follows every Inspection Arms (Ready, Order, Arms) and Function Check. A trigger can NOT be tripped with the hammer down.
Safety "On SAFE" means the hammer is cocked. NOTHING gets storage with a cocked hammer. Nothing.
Carry hot? Chamber hot, safety ON.
Carry cleared, Magazine or no magazine, chamber clear, hammer down.
Hammer down isn’t statistically proven for anything. The US Military as a whole has the highest instances of ND’s per capita than any other group I’ve ever been around. It’s happens all the time. As for the rest of your post.... it’s interesting to note, that the places (very few) in the military where having an ND will get you relieved and kicked out all run safety on. You don’t see I rifle hardly ever- even in storage without a safety engaged. If an armorer for whatever reason dropped the hammer to store it, the first things that happens when I guy checks it out is to attempt to put it on safe, lock the bolt to the rear, engage safety, check chamber.
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,887
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,887 |
The only trust worthy safety is an open action. Control where the muzzle is pointed and double or triple all safety procedures and everything should be fine. I store with no ammunition in the firearm, the rest is academic.
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 67,830 Likes: 13
Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 67,830 Likes: 13 |
Just checked the two that I keep around for things that go bump in the night. As I thought, both had a full magazine, the chamber empty, hammer down, safety not engaged. I have followed that procedure for some 40 years now. It works for me. I am not likely to change.
Sam......
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 4,189 Likes: 1
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 4,189 Likes: 1 |
Hammer down isn’t statistically proven for anything.
Sure it is. Never has there been a ND/AD when the hammer was down on an empty chamber. It is impossible. Whatever current unit SOP is in their arms room is beyond my knowledge, as my experience ended quite a few years ago. But there is NO arguing with the FM regarding the Manual of Arms, Inspection Arms, Order Arms, Carry Arms, Function Check and where the hammer is after those steps are performed BY THE NUMBERS. Maybe it is not part of Basic, Advanced or the NCO Academy anymore, but it dang sure was in my day. Things do change, not always for the better. Safety is still an individual mandate. Thanks for your service to our country!
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