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.323 is just not much of a "going thing" hence the lack of innovation. I used to want to put together an 8mm-06. Probably because of reading too much Askins Jr. 'Stick will be along momentarily to tell us all how stupid we are and how superior .338 diameter is. When I was researching a rifle bigger than a 270 back in the late 90's. The 8mm-06, 338-06 and 35 Whelen were all in the running. I eventually chose the 338-06 and have been very happy with it. Although when all are used in normal hunting scenarios, not much difference. I have had both a 8mm Remington mag and an 8x57. I have zero desire to ever own another 8mm caliber rifle.
Arcus Venator
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Where are you going to find an 8mm rifle intended for long range use?
The only reason the Krauts made such a bullet is for volley fire & machinegun use.
Politics is War by Other Means
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I had a Mauser 98 re-barreled with a 1:10 twist #2 Contour 24" Douglas barrel. It was a hard hitter and tack driver with 180 grain Nosler Ballistic Tips. Our range had a 200 yard gong and the old 8mm rocked the gong much harder than my trusted 30-06; loads were nearly identical if not identical charges of IMR 4064 with 180 grain bullets, .323" vs .308". I will take a pre 64 Winchester 70 over a custom mauser any day though. I gave that gun to a friend's son.
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The Krauts were so far ahead of America in rifle, cartridge, projectiles and optics for so many decades it's almost embarrassing. We did finally catch up but have come up with nothing any better. The great 30-06 is based on the 8 X 57 and it wasn't Mauser who paid royalties to Springfield.
If you shoot cast bullets in the 8 X 57I or IS there's a lot of great bullets out there.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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This was the standard German bullet for the 8x57 during WW2. It had a BC of around 0.575 and weighed 198 grains.
I can't see your linked image. Where does that BC number come from?
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I can't see your linked image. Where does that BC number come from?
Image link: https://i.imgur.com/RBtGMMR.pngWikipedia says "The s.S. ball projectile with a 5.9 millimetres long 6° 25′ 51″ boat tail was designed for long range use and offered the best aerodynamic efficiency and external ballistic performance of any standard rifle bullet used during World War II, with a G1 ballistic coefficient between 0.593 and 0.557". I don't trust Wikipedia. But if you look at the firing tables and work it out, you get about the same, probably where those numbers come from. And if you plug the official dimensions into the program described here (pdf warning), you also get about the same. There are a couple other sources out there with similar results. Those give a pretty good ballpark. If we want a more exact number I guess Brian Litz needs to test some. There were a number of very nicely shaped projectiles way back when, including .30-06 M1 ball and especially the monolithic boat-tailed projectile for the 8mm Lebel (below) which was about as nicely shaped as any of the ELDs Hornady puts out today. ![[Linked Image]](https://i.imgur.com/BFPlB17.png) https://i.imgur.com/BFPlB17.png
Last edited by Goosey; 12/27/18.
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Bullets were designed that way because they needed good ballistics for machine guns. It was envisioned that massed machine guns would actually arc their bullets in indirect fire mode to create beaten zones behind enemy lines and create havoc. Thus, good long range performance was needed.
WW I showed that mostly this was impractical and unneeded as that artillery could do that job better, so most countries developed lighter bullets that had lighter recoil and better performance in that first five or six hundred yards where most engagements would occur. However, the Germans saw the role of individual soldiers more as guys to protect and deliver ammo to the machine guns and thus, continued to optimize their bullets for machine gun use instead of rifle use. As such, they actually increased the weight of the standard bullet from 153 grains to 196 grains and from a flat base to a boat tail between the wars.
Last edited by JoeBob; 12/27/18.
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The simple truth of the matter is that the old 8x57is with the right "dumpy" bullet will still put the meat in the freezer at most any REASONABLE range.
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I don't always shoot Mausers, but when I do...I prefer VZ-24s.
jdi do píči
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So will a 30-06 with far superior logistics.
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This was the standard German bullet for the 8x57 during WW2. It had a BC of around 0.575 and weighed 198 grains. ![[Linked Image]](https://i.imgur.com/RBtGMMR.png) There's not much demand for 8mm bullets compared to other bore sizes. But still, why do all major manufacturers choose such dumpy shapes? I'm surprised no civil manufacturer has copied the bullet above. It holds up well even compared to the low-drag bullets of 2018. I'm sure you could copy that shape and put a plastic tip on it. Some of the better-shaped 8mm bullets and their advertised BCs: Nosler 200 Accubond: 0.450 Hornady 170 SST: 0.445 Sierra 220 GameKing: 0.524 Sierra 200 Matchking: 0.505 Hornady 196 BTHP: 0.525 All a lot lower, and a couple of those are match bullets, too. Is it really so hard to make a longer, sleeker ogive? It bothers me the Germans can come out with this bullet a century ago, and no mainstream manufacturers will make a bullet to match in 2018. Would make the 8x57 and 325 just a little more attractive. Maybe you should form a start-up and put said bullet into production. I'd buy a box. And then probably go back to using the Federal blue box load that can I buy in my hometown hardware store for $20. Back when cheap surplus mausers were the rage, Hornady and Sierra threw together a couple of bullets to "capitalize" on that market. Nobody picked up the torch to R&D anything beyond that simply because there's no MONEY in it. The guy with a cheap surplus mauser doesn't give two sh*ts about long range hunting accuracy - he just wants the rifle to bang as cheaply as he can make it go bang. Had the 325 WSM really taken off, then they'd have taken a second look. But the bullets they ARE offering will do anything most anybody, with an 8mm anything, will want - at the ranges they want to shoot anything. It's business, man, just business.... My apologies, for my smart-arse remarks. Kaiser Norton
The Kaiser- "If it ain't broke, I can fix that!"
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Hammer bullets will do a custom design or did. A 196 with a deep hollow point might work. They could even copy the dimensions of the WWII design and it might have a higher BC due to the hollow point if they made the nose pointy enough. Not sure what their minimum is but when they were just starting it was like 500 to a 1,000 as they liked to experiment. A Campfire group buy could generate more than that.
But I am in the 220 Sierra is good enough camp.
"When you disarm the people, you commence to offend them and show that you distrust them either through cowardice or lack of confidence, and both of these opinions generate hatred." Niccolo Machiavelli
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Where are you going to find an 8mm rifle intended for long range use?
The only reason the Krauts made such a bullet is for volley fire & machinegun use. M76.
Mauser Rescue Society
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I don't always shoot Mausers, but when I do...I prefer VZ-24s.
jdi do píči
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Where are you going to find an 8mm rifle intended for long range use?
The only reason the Krauts made such a bullet is for volley fire & machinegun use. M76. That's an 800 yard gun on the best of it's days. On the plus side, when you miss, you can try again quickly. Good guess though, Tim. I can't think of a better attempt at a rifleman's long range 8mm. For the Yugos it served it's purpose. But if it was an attempt to make a long range rifle, it was a swing & a miss. As far as I'm concerned, bullet BC was the least of it's problems. I'd much rather have an M40 or even an AR10. I've never thought much of those Dragunov types. (I know the gas is different.)
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Where are you going to find an 8mm rifle intended for long range use?
The only reason the Krauts made such a bullet is for volley fire & machinegun use. M76. That's an 800 yard gun on the best of it's days. On the plus side, when you miss, you can try again quickly. Good guess though, Tim. I can't think of a better attempt at a rifleman's long range 8mm. For the Yugos it served it's purpose. But if it was an attempt to make a long range rifle, it was a swing & a miss. As far as I'm concerned, bullet BC was the least of it's problems. I'd much rather have an M40 or even an AR10. I've never thought much of those Dragunov types. (I know the gas is different.) You never asked for a great design...LOL. I would wager that a WWII K98 sniper variant would stretch farther than the M76, but that wasn't a purpose built long range rifle, just a scope slapped on the finest bolt action ever conceived.
Mauser Rescue Society
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I don't always shoot Mausers, but when I do...I prefer VZ-24s.
jdi do píči
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 I believe you would win that argument too.
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