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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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have a soft spot for whatever was new when they were 30 years old, or what grandpa used
Shrapnel is gonna kick your ass......
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 37,249 Likes: 14 |
Just tell an old guy about getting 100 fps higher velocities with R26 than H4831 and wait for him to tell you that you are playing fast and loose with your life......
Yep and this new fangled smokeless powder is just a passing fad... ![wink wink](/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/default/wink.gif) Getting to the age where I don't like change, either... ![blush blush](/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/default/blush.gif) DF
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Campfire Regular
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have a soft spot for whatever was new when they were 30 years old, or what grandpa used
Shrapnel is gonna kick your ass...... Drat, didn't think about that! Was Shrap 30 when the 270 came out???
The first great thing is to find yourself and for that you need solitude and contemplation. I can tell you deliverance will not come from the rushing noisy centers of civilization. It will come from the lonely places. Fridtjof Nansen
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 37,249 Likes: 14 |
have a soft spot for whatever was new when they were 30 years old, or what grandpa used
Shrapnel is gonna kick your ass...... Drat, didn't think about that! Was Shrap 30 when the 270 came out??? Ouch... ![grin grin](/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/default/grin.gif) DF
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 29,032 Likes: 28 |
A lot of that investment is emotional, IMHO. Just when a feller gets to enjoy feeling all special about his toy, somebody comes along and does it maybe just a bit better, over the counter yet. Since you chose to use my "invested" statement from a previous post, I guess having reamers for 22, 6, and 6.5 x47's and 8 or nine guns/ barrels chambered with them, is a bit more than "emotional". I and others mention a round on the 47 case as another option to look at, not replace or compete with a favorite, nothing more. Sorry, my friend, but you're giving my memory waaayyy too much credit! I think I was clear that the investment I was talking about is emotional, not financial or otherwise tangible. Your situation is one where sticking with a proven favorite and/or its kin makes perfect sense, kinda like me keeping a .270 (to name just one) around. Wouldn't want to discourage anyone from using what they already have or like, for any reason. On the other hand, I said before, there's absolutely no reason for anyone buying or building a new rifle to saddle themselves with a wildcat, or an obscure, difficult to feed cartridge when the same performance is available off the shelf, or to fuss and stamp their feet when something new and useful comes out that does what their pet does, but simply and relatively inexpensively. Obvious exceptions are vintage guns, or attempts at recreating same, or "just because", all good reasons to do things the hard way.
What fresh Hell is this?
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 29,032 Likes: 28 |
have a soft spot for whatever was new when they were 30 years old, or what grandpa used
Shrapnel is gonna kick your ass...... Drat, didn't think about that! Was Shrap 30 when the 270 came out??? Hey, wait a minute... I know ingwe is older than Shrap, and I'm older than ingwe... Hey, wait a minute!
What fresh Hell is this?
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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Joined: Aug 2006
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Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: Aug 2006
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have a soft spot for whatever was new when they were 30 years old, or what grandpa used
Shrapnel is gonna kick your ass...... Drat, didn't think about that! Was Shrap 30 when the 270 came out??? Hey, wait a minute... I know ingwe is older than Shrap, and I'm older than ingwe... Hey, wait a minute! Oops. I may need to go back to the Upland Game forum. ![grin grin](/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/default/grin.gif)
The first great thing is to find yourself and for that you need solitude and contemplation. I can tell you deliverance will not come from the rushing noisy centers of civilization. It will come from the lonely places. Fridtjof Nansen
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Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 1,364 |
Ok, I’ll bite. How do the CMs feed from the magazine ? That .462” diameter shoulder has me pondering that aspect of their performance.
History May Not Repeat, But it Rhymes.
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Posts: 8,847
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 8,847 |
It is amazing how the "butt-hurt" runs strong in the shooting community when it comes to rifle calibers. It's like people might take offense if someone else has a different favorite color. As I've said previously, on the continuum of cartridges, the differences between each and the ones directly above and below it on said continuum in so miniscule as to be almost completely un-determinable by most mere mortals.
Having said all of that, if some newcomer to shooting were to approach me and ask for my recommendation for a on-rifle-do-all for the average hunter, based on all we know about ammo cost, inherent accuracy, ballistic capabilities, etc., I would be hard-pressed to suggest something other than the 6.5 Creedmoor as the "best" option. I do, however, acknowledge that anything ranging from the 243 through the 30-06 would not be leading said individual astray.
Last edited by TheBigSky; 01/04/19.
_________________________________________________________________________ “Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.” John Steinbeck
ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
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Joined: Oct 2002
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Campfire Oracle
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Campfire Oracle
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 96,121 Likes: 1 |
Ok, I’ll bite. How do the CMs feed from the magazine ? That .462” diameter shoulder has me pondering that aspect of their performance. Fine
"Dear Lord, save me from Your followers"
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 8,936 Likes: 3 |
It is amazing how the "butt-hurt" runs strong in the shooting community when it comes to rifle calibers. It's like people might take offense if someone else has a different favorite color. As I've said previously, on the continuum of cartridges, the differences between each and the ones directly above and below it on said continuum in so miniscule as to be almost completely un-determinable by most mere mortals.
Having said all of that, if some newcomer to shooting were to approach me and ask for my recommendation for a on-rifle-do-all for the average hunter, based on all we know about ammo cost, inherent accuracy, ballistic capabilities, etc., I would be hard-pressed to suggest something other than the 6.5 Creedmoor as the "best" option. I do, however, acknowledge that anything ranging from the 243 through the 30-06 would not be leading said individual astray. While "butt-hurt" certainly exists regarding cartridges, the opposite end of the spectrum exists. That is, unfailing admiration of cartridges; the thinking that one round is somehow far superior to another, when in reality most will do exactly the same thing. With the 6.5 Creedmoor, this unfailing admiration is often exhibited in places like a bar during hunting season. If there's a group of flat bills drinking cheap beer in said bar, at some point one will pull out his I-phone and start forcing everyone around him to look at pictures of dead things which he "smacked" or "laid the hammer down on" at ridiculous ranges. This fellow will then proclaim how the cartridge he was using was by far the best choice for said "harvest". In 2018, there's a good chance that cartridge is one of the big Noslers, or a 6.5 Creedmoor. After a few more drinks, said hero will mumble something about the extra rounds it took to bring dead animals to bear for pictures, as some of the rounds fired went into the hillside or blew off a leg. Cartridge selection is as much an emotional choice as it is practical, and when emotions are involved they will run the gamut from love to hate. When exposed to experiences such as those described in the above paragraph, it's easier for an observer to slide more towards the negative, lest one be lumped in with said flat bill brigade for using the same round.
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Joined: Oct 2002
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Campfire Oracle
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Campfire Oracle
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 96,121 Likes: 1 |
So in short, chicks and emotions are the problem, both sides of the coin.
No surprises there
"Dear Lord, save me from Your followers"
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Joined: Dec 2008
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 8,847 |
It is amazing how the "butt-hurt" runs strong in the shooting community when it comes to rifle calibers. It's like people might take offense if someone else has a different favorite color. As I've said previously, on the continuum of cartridges, the differences between each and the ones directly above and below it on said continuum in so miniscule as to be almost completely un-determinable by most mere mortals.
Having said all of that, if some newcomer to shooting were to approach me and ask for my recommendation for a on-rifle-do-all for the average hunter, based on all we know about ammo cost, inherent accuracy, ballistic capabilities, etc., I would be hard-pressed to suggest something other than the 6.5 Creedmoor as the "best" option. I do, however, acknowledge that anything ranging from the 243 through the 30-06 would not be leading said individual astray. While "butt-hurt" certainly exists regarding cartridges, the opposite end of the spectrum exists. ......................... lest one be lumped in with said flat bill brigade for using the same round. I can't disagree with you pg, that's why my first sentence specifically referenced, topically, "rifle calibers" (note the plural).
_________________________________________________________________________ “Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.” John Steinbeck
ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
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Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 12,168 Likes: 16
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 12,168 Likes: 16 |
It is amazing how the "butt-hurt" runs strong in the shooting community when it comes to rifle calibers. It's like people might take offense if someone else has a different favorite color. As I've said previously, on the continuum of cartridges, the differences between each and the ones directly above and below it on said continuum in so miniscule as to be almost completely un-determinable by most mere mortals.
Having said all of that, if some newcomer to shooting were to approach me and ask for my recommendation for a on-rifle-do-all for the average hunter, based on all we know about ammo cost, inherent accuracy, ballistic capabilities, etc., I would be hard-pressed to suggest something other than the 6.5 Creedmoor as the "best" option. I do, however, acknowledge that anything ranging from the 243 through the 30-06 would not be leading said individual astray. While "butt-hurt" certainly exists regarding cartridges, the opposite end of the spectrum exists. That is, unfailing admiration of cartridges; the thinking that one round is somehow far superior to another, when in reality most will do exactly the same thing. With the 6.5 Creedmoor, this unfailing admiration is often exhibited in places like a bar during hunting season. If there's a group of flat bills drinking cheap beer in said bar, at some point one will pull out his I-phone and start forcing everyone around him to look at pictures of dead things which he "smacked" or "laid the hammer down on" at ridiculous ranges. This fellow will then proclaim how the cartridge he was using was by far the best choice for said "harvest". In 2018, there's a good chance that cartridge is one of the big Noslers, or a 6.5 Creedmoor. After a few more drinks, said hero will mumble something about the extra rounds it took to bring dead animals to bear for pictures, as some of the rounds fired went into the hillside or blew off a leg. Cartridge selection is as much an emotional choice as it is practical, and when emotions are involved they will run the gamut from love to hate. When exposed to experiences such as those described in the above paragraph, it's easier for an observer to slide more towards the negative, lest one be lumped in with said flat bill brigade for using the same round. Pretty much how the .300 Weatherby was discussed in bars when it was the hotness. The big difference is that the 6.5mm CM can actually deliver for the average hunter. That is what makes it unique, the hype is warranted. ![wink wink](/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/default/wink.gif)
John Burns
I have all the sources. They can't stop the signal.
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Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 2,556
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 2,556 |
It is amazing how the "butt-hurt" runs strong in the shooting community when it comes to rifle calibers. It's like people might take offense if someone else has a different favorite color. As I've said previously, on the continuum of cartridges, the differences between each and the ones directly above and below it on said continuum in so miniscule as to be almost completely un-determinable by most mere mortals.
Having said all of that, if some newcomer to shooting were to approach me and ask for my recommendation for a on-rifle-do-all for the average hunter, based on all we know about ammo cost, inherent accuracy, ballistic capabilities, etc., I would be hard-pressed to suggest something other than the 6.5 Creedmoor as the "best" option. I do, however, acknowledge that anything ranging from the 243 through the 30-06 would not be leading said individual astray. While "butt-hurt" certainly exists regarding cartridges, the opposite end of the spectrum exists. That is, unfailing admiration of cartridges; the thinking that one round is somehow far superior to another, when in reality most will do exactly the same thing. With the 6.5 Creedmoor, this unfailing admiration is often exhibited in places like a bar during hunting season. If there's a group of flat bills drinking cheap beer in said bar, at some point one will pull out his I-phone and start forcing everyone around him to look at pictures of dead things which he "smacked" or "laid the hammer down on" at ridiculous ranges. This fellow will then proclaim how the cartridge he was using was by far the best choice for said "harvest". In 2018, there's a good chance that cartridge is one of the big Noslers, or a 6.5 Creedmoor. After a few more drinks, said hero will mumble something about the extra rounds it took to bring dead animals to bear for pictures, as some of the rounds fired went into the hillside or blew off a leg. Cartridge selection is as much an emotional choice as it is practical, and when emotions are involved they will run the gamut from love to hate. When exposed to experiences such as those described in the above paragraph, it's easier for an observer to slide more towards the negative, lest one be lumped in with said flat bill brigade for using the same round. Pretty much how the .300 Weatherby was discussed in bars when it was the hotness. The big difference is that the 6.5mm CM can actually deliver for the average hunter. That is what makes it unique, the hype is warranted. ![wink wink](/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/default/wink.gif) Based on the hammering of a fair number of deer at varying ranges, I have to agree with this. I just, plain, like the 6.5, whether it is a Creed, or .260.
You did not "seen" anything, you "saw" it. A "creek" has water in it, a "crick" is what you get in your neck. Liberals with guns are nothing but hypocrites.
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Campfire Member
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Campfire Member
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Adamjp,
Your response to my question about "equally effective" cartridges was exactly what I expected.
The anti-Creedmoor rifle loonies who inhabit the Campfire (like you) apparently believe EVERY shooter and hunter on earth handloads, and is willing to spend considerable money on custom rifles or rebarreling, to use other 6.5 cartridges than the Creedmoor.
But why should they, when they can buy off-the-rack rifles and factory ammo that will do the same things? I purchased my present 6.5 Creedmoor for the vast sum of $350, and for another $25 can buy a box of factory ammo that groups 5 shots well under an inch. And my rifle's very first 5-shot group at 100 yards with handloads measured .33 inch, which is not exactly an aberration. The other three factory 6.5 Creedmoors I've owned were also very accurate.
...
Yes, there are reasons beside the "recent" publicity on the 6.5 Creedmoor for its extreme popularity. I put "recent" in quotes because the cartridge was introduced a dozen years ago, and has kept growing in popularity since then. Most new factory centerfire rounds only sell well for 2-3 years before starting to fade. That's because publicity can only do so much, and factoryPR departments can only afford to flog some new cartridge for a short time before the cartridge must stand on its own. (In a way, it's like book publishing. If a new book doesn't continue selling after the initial announcement and publicity, then the company eventually quits printing copies, because there's no sense in printing books that never leave warehouses.)
Cartridges that become profitable within that initial period usually stick around for a while, and those that are selling FAR better after a dozen years tend to become world standards, meaning that just about every company making sporting rifles chambers them, and just about every ammunition company makes ammo. That is exactly what's happened with the 6.5 Creedmoor. Not only do major American companies produce both rifles and ammo, but so do many European companies--and that trend continues to spread.
...
But according to you, and others like you, the 6.5 Creedmoor's world-wide and growing popularity, a dozen years after its introduction, is totally due to publicity. John, Yes, I handload. For full disclosure, where possible I use Lapua brass, then Norma and then others although I'm looking forward to developments with the emerging case manufacturers like Alpha, ADG and Petersen. Lapua/Norma are preferred through hard won experience as when I start reloading I will batch the available brass - the variation between good ol' Hornady/Winchester/Federal brass in the same packet is scary and will not help in the long run. If I were asked by someone wanting to get into longer match ranges or a good rifle for light/medium game at any useful range I would certainly recommend a 6.5 Creedmoor. In fact I did back in November when one of my staff was about to undergo a shoulder reconstruction and doctors advice was 'no shooting' for a long time. I recommended a 6.5 Creed in a Varmit weight rifle with a very effective muzzle brake and a limbsaver recoil pad (the 30mm one). He starts shooting that next month (3 months after the surgery). The combination is such that it is an effective package and should be at the top for anyone. FWIW my staffer also reloads, but cannot for probably a year as he cannot manipulate the press post shoulder surgery. The longevity of the Creedmoor is down to the fact that it does work. As I said in an earlier post... ...I'm not saying the Creedmoor does not deserve a reputation for easy accuracy and useful performance for the everyman. There is no other combination that you could buy from most any sporting goods store that would perform as well out of the box - this is why the 223 is more popular than the 222 or 222 Magnum... Simple fact is that when first launched the Creedmoor was heavily marketed by Hornady, just like they did the 204 Ruger before it, and most recently with the 6.5 PRC (full page adverts in the magazines, pushing product to the reviewers in print and online). Nothing wrong with that, but you must admit that Hornady do have a habit of strong marketing campaigns, sometimes for pretty mediocre product. As you state, a cartridge popularity usually wanes after 2-3 years (the 6.8 SPC is the latest of a long line of Remingtons marketing missteps). That the Creedmoor continues to sell strongly suggests that it has reached a level of acceptance with the buying public, passing a fad stage several years ago and has became a benchmark cartridge. My issue is that I have an innate dislike of faddish behavior perpetrated by manufacturer marketing and industry magazines/websites which are sometimes nothing more than advertorials. I know there is an industry out there to sell products, be they rifles, ammunition, or column inches (or is that column electrons now?). I look forward to reading about it, but don't think I won't consider the outcomes with a level head and call BS when the words don't add up to reality. My point is, and remains that there are equally effective products for those who choose to use them. Yes, they do lack ammunition options across the counter which makes them a reloader choice, but they are as effective as the Creedmoor. You may want to reconsider labelling me (and some others here) an "anti-Creedmoor rifle loony". If you were to take a Tikka T3 Varmit in each of these cartridges, buy or assemble equal cartridges then it would difficult to spot a difference between them. Hmm, sounds difficult. Since they don't sell the T3 Varmit in 260 Remington, 7-08 Remington, 6.5x55 Swedish or 6.5x47 Lapua (NO PRODUCT). (Available in 6.5 Creedmoor.) As usual, you only look to what is sold over the counter in the USA, not what is available from the factory or by special order from Beretta USA. Tikka T3x Varmit Stainless Factory Production
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Posts: 31,442
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 31,442 |
Holeee-phucqk. It is not popular because of the marketing a decade ago. .
"I can't be canceled, because, I don't give a fuuck!" --- Kid Rock 2022
Holocaust Deniers, the ultimate perverted dipchits: Bristoe, TheRealHawkeye, stophel, Ghostinthemachine, anyone else?
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Campfire Outfitter
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Amazing that the younger crowd gets criticized here of all places. With hunting numbers declining and all....
“There are some who can live without wild things and some who cannot.” ALDO LEOPOLD
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Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
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Adamjp,
Perhaps you could list those "equally effective products." The .260 Remington can do all that the 6.5 Creedmoor can do. The was no real marketing behind it, and the first rifles were barreled with slow twist rates. Switch the two marketing strategies and we'd all Be singing the praises of the .260. The two rounds are very close. I'd say the Creedmoor's success is more due to R&D strategy than "marketing" strategy. It was shooters, engineers and ballisticians that came up with it. Not MBAs or marketing experts. The marketing budgets of all the shooting-sports companies combined isn't big enough to do "marketing" of anything on an effectual level. One company doing it, as you suggest, is completely ludicrous. It can't happen. There is absolutely no "marketing-driven" reason for the success of the 6.5 Creedmoor. Truth be known, since Hornady is a much smaller company than Remington was when it introduced the .260, I'd lay very comfortable odds that the .260 Rem had far more "marketing hype" and budget than the 6.5 Creedmoor did. We all know how that worked out.
Last edited by seattlesetters; 01/04/19.
What could be a sadder way to end a life than to die having never hunted with great dogs, good friends and your family?
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