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Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
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I’m going to go heavily against the grain here. With hunting I have personally shot around 80 deer with 223/5.56mm’s, have been physically present (behind the spotting scope) for at least double that many. Using all the normal bigger rounds and including culling, well into four digits. A lot of these deer had field autopsies completed. I have seen “rodeos” with every single caliber with a multitude of bullets. Some deer just die hard. I have put multiple rounds in the chest of deer (usually bucks) with 243’s, 270’s, 7-08, 308, 7mm RM, 300 WM, 300 RUM, 338L, etc. All we’re good shots hitting both lungs. Yet the buck with the 300 RUM took two rounds center chest at less than 250 yards, and nearly got a third because he just continued to chase a doe. Both exit wound were baseball sized, and both were placed correctly. A smallish 8pt took two rounds to the lungs at 280 yards from 95gr NBT’s, fell in a river and was still alive 5 minutes later. A decent 11pt took three rounds of 178gr Amax from a 300WM. This combo creates horrific wound channels yet he lived for almost ten minutes and it wasn’t until the CNS was cut that he stopped A doe took 4 rounds of Winchester 140gr CT 270WSM at 400 yards. She fell at every shot, then got back up, shot, fell, got up, etc. All bullets hit both lungs, performed as designed, and exited. There was nothing left of the front half. Exit wounds were 2-4”, and she still stumbled out of sight after the fourth hit. Multiples and multiples of deer have taken 2-4 rounds of TSX/TTSX/GMX/etc. One yearling button buck took four 139gr GMX’s in the chest from a 7-08 at 200 yards. All rounds hit lungs, and he still had to have a finisher a couple minutes later when we walked to it. The point is that if you shoot enough deer with ANY chambering and bullet you will eventually run into a deer that just doesn’t want to die. However, way more “rodeos” have happened with hard, deep penetrating bullets than with soft bullets that penetrate deep enough to reach the chest and create wide wound channels. It’s not even close in ratio. The 223 is capable of creating damage that makes most 30/06’s blush. There is no issue in the biggest of deer with a 77gr TMK inserted in the lungs. You can expect 20’ish inches of penetration, even going through a shoulder, with a three to four inch wide wound channel. If you hit a shoulder, it’s pretty much gone. This buck was at 110yrds quartering to. ![[Linked Image]](http://i.imgur.com/aBkB8nZ.jpg) The 77gr TMK centered the near shoulder, through ribs, both, lungs, and was stopped under the hide behind the last rib. About 22” of penetration after hitting shoulder and ribs. ![[Linked Image]](http://i.imgur.com/17E9ntH.jpg) The recovered bullet. ![[Linked Image]](http://i.imgur.com/s3UVLEz.jpg) This mule deer was at 303 yards. ![[Linked Image]](http://i.imgur.com/mch7SKI.jpg) Through the shoulder/leg knuckle, ribs, lungs, caught in the offside skin behind the last rib. Again- 20-22 inches of penetration. ![[Linked Image]](http://i.imgur.com/1iCd8VJ.jpg) This one was around 100 yards as well. Shoulder, ribs, lungs, ribs, exit. ![[Linked Image]](http://i.imgur.com/VkfJ590.jpg) No one walks up and says- “that’s marginal”. Quite the opposite. One person was very aggressive about 223’s being too small. After seeing several deer killed with the TMK and the wounds, he knows says it’s does too much damage and wastes meat..... Worried about the Texas heart shot? Don’t be. Put it into the tailbone or hip and the deer drops. Like mist all rear ended shots regardless of bullet or caliber, it’s a stoping shot and requires a finisher. I was with someone that did just that a couple days ago with a 77gr TMK at just over 200 yards. First shot broke near side shoulder and lung. The buck stumbled 20-30 feet and stopped facing away. Second shot hit 3/4” below the head of the left femur (ball joint) completely shattering it, traveled just to the left of the right joint breaking it, and stopped about an inch from exiting the offside hip. The deer collapsed. Having done read shots with nearly every make and model of bullet, if I have to take that shot- I want a bullet that does as much damage as possible regardless of caliber or cartridge. I have had multiple TSX’s just miss the spine and fail to drop the animal. Everyone that had taken an Amax/ELD-M, TMK, Berger, etc. has collapsed immediately. I have zero issues with any deer walking- 80lb southern does, to 300lb northern bucks out to 550-600’ish yards with 75gr Speer Gold Dots, 77gr TMK’s, 75gr ELD-M’s, etc. 223’s encourage surgical shooting, allow anyone to spot their own impacts, and used with the right bullets will cause more damage than anyone wants. For new hunters, I would always rather them use a 223 with one of the above bullets. My young son has and it worked terrible. Maybe it was the bullets, but it took 4 shots potential killing shots before the deer finally just bled out and fell down. Very little damage inside. The bullets was a 64g Winchester Power Point. I have bought some TTSX's to try from the good result mentioned on the fire. My son used a .257 Roberts this year and killed the deer with one shot. The only reason I am considering the .223 again is because my daughter can hunt this coming year. TTSX’s kill fine, but they create relatively small wound channels. I would highly suggest 62gr Federal Fusion, and if your barrel is 8” twist or better- 75gr Speer Gold Dot or Blackhills 77gr TMK. Both, vutvthe TMK specifically can and will create massive damage especially if bones are hit.
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Joined: Jun 2003
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 42,620 Likes: 1 |
Form: Any experiences with the 257 weatherby and 100gr Hornady Interlocks ? I've taken around fifty deer with this round and not one has ever taken a step. Ranges from 50-350 yards or so, J
A good principle to guide me through life: “This is all I have come to expect, standard lackluster performance. Trust nothing, believe no one and realize it will only get worse…”
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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FormDUDE, You're not going against the grain much with that post...you actually seem to be in agreement with most folks here, for the most part.
I especially agree with your assessment of really hard bullets causing rodeos...unless they hit bone, I have not seen a bullet worse for hunting than a FMJ or a mono at turtle speed.
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
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I've lost count of the amount of deer and antelope that I've killed or been in on killing with the 223, while also using it on a few elk. The 223 with good bullets and proper placement seems to kill stuff just as well as anything else, and proper placement with a 223 is a lot easier to achieve than with big boomers.
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Joined: Jul 2015
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
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The 223 is capable of creating damage that makes most 30/06’s blush. There is no issue in the biggest of deer with a 77gr TMK inserted in the lungs. You can expect 20’ish inches of penetration, even going through a shoulder, with a three to four inch wide wound channel. If you hit a shoulder, it’s pretty much gone. What about deer at twenty yards?
Politics is War by Other Means
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Joined: Sep 2004
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 17,432 |
A few years back, there was a discussion along these lines. Many people, including Scenarshooter, recommended the Hornady 55 grain spire point for hogs and deer.
Haven't had a chance to try that yet, but intend to this fall.
“Live free or die. Death is not the worst of evils.” - General John Stark.
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Oct 2008
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Suddenly the 6.5 Creedmoor feels like a big rifle!
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Posts: 9,189
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 9,189 |
I’m going to go heavily against the grain here. With hunting I have personally shot around 80 deer with 223/5.56mm’s, have been physically present (behind the spotting scope) for at least double that many. Using all the normal bigger rounds and including culling, well into four digits. A lot of these deer had field autopsies completed. I have seen “rodeos” with every single caliber with a multitude of bullets. Some deer just die hard. I have put multiple rounds in the chest of deer (usually bucks) with 243’s, 270’s, 7-08, 308, 7mm RM, 300 WM, 300 RUM, 338L, etc. All we’re good shots hitting both lungs. Yet the buck with the 300 RUM took two rounds center chest at less than 250 yards, and nearly got a third because he just continued to chase a doe. Both exit wound were baseball sized, and both were placed correctly. A smallish 8pt took two rounds to the lungs at 280 yards from 95gr NBT’s, fell in a river and was still alive 5 minutes later. A decent 11pt took three rounds of 178gr Amax from a 300WM. This combo creates horrific wound channels yet he lived for almost ten minutes and it wasn’t until the CNS was cut that he stopped A doe took 4 rounds of Winchester 140gr CT 270WSM at 400 yards. She fell at every shot, then got back up, shot, fell, got up, etc. All bullets hit both lungs, performed as designed, and exited. There was nothing left of the front half. Exit wounds were 2-4”, and she still stumbled out of sight after the fourth hit. Multiples and multiples of deer have taken 2-4 rounds of TSX/TTSX/GMX/etc. One yearling button buck took four 139gr GMX’s in the chest from a 7-08 at 200 yards. All rounds hit lungs, and he still had to have a finisher a couple minutes later when we walked to it. The point is that if you shoot enough deer with ANY chambering and bullet you will eventually run into a deer that just doesn’t want to die. However, way more “rodeos” have happened with hard, deep penetrating bullets than with soft bullets that penetrate deep enough to reach the chest and create wide wound channels. It’s not even close in ratio. The 223 is capable of creating damage that makes most 30/06’s blush. There is no issue in the biggest of deer with a 77gr TMK inserted in the lungs. You can expect 20’ish inches of penetration, even going through a shoulder, with a three to four inch wide wound channel. If you hit a shoulder, it’s pretty much gone. This buck was at 110yrds quartering to. ![[Linked Image]](http://i.imgur.com/aBkB8nZ.jpg) The 77gr TMK centered the near shoulder, through ribs, both, lungs, and was stopped under the hide behind the last rib. About 22” of penetration after hitting shoulder and ribs. ![[Linked Image]](http://i.imgur.com/17E9ntH.jpg) The recovered bullet. ![[Linked Image]](http://i.imgur.com/s3UVLEz.jpg) This mule deer was at 303 yards. ![[Linked Image]](http://i.imgur.com/mch7SKI.jpg) Through the shoulder/leg knuckle, ribs, lungs, caught in the offside skin behind the last rib. Again- 20-22 inches of penetration. ![[Linked Image]](http://i.imgur.com/1iCd8VJ.jpg) This one was around 100 yards as well. Shoulder, ribs, lungs, ribs, exit. ![[Linked Image]](http://i.imgur.com/VkfJ590.jpg) No one walks up and says- “that’s marginal”. Quite the opposite. One person was very aggressive about 223’s being too small. After seeing several deer killed with the TMK and the wounds, he knows says it’s does too much damage and wastes meat..... Worried about the Texas heart shot? Don’t be. Put it into the tailbone or hip and the deer drops. Like mist all rear ended shots regardless of bullet or caliber, it’s a stoping shot and requires a finisher. I was with someone that did just that a couple days ago with a 77gr TMK at just over 200 yards. First shot broke near side shoulder and lung. The buck stumbled 20-30 feet and stopped facing away. Second shot hit 3/4” below the head of the left femur (ball joint) completely shattering it, traveled just to the left of the right joint breaking it, and stopped about an inch from exiting the offside hip. The deer collapsed. Having done read shots with nearly every make and model of bullet, if I have to take that shot- I want a bullet that does as much damage as possible regardless of caliber or cartridge. I have had multiple TSX’s just miss the spine and fail to drop the animal. Everyone that had taken an Amax/ELD-M, TMK, Berger, etc. has collapsed immediately. I have zero issues with any deer walking- 80lb southern does, to 300lb northern bucks out to 550-600’ish yards with 75gr Speer Gold Dots, 77gr TMK’s, 75gr ELD-M’s, etc. 223’s encourage surgical shooting, allow anyone to spot their own impacts, and used with the right bullets will cause more damage than anyone wants. For new hunters, I would always rather them use a 223 with one of the above bullets. My young son has and it worked terrible. Maybe it was the bullets, but it took 4 shots potential killing shots before the deer finally just bled out and fell down. Very little damage inside. The bullets was a 64g Winchester Power Point. I have bought some TTSX's to try from the good result mentioned on the fire. My son used a .257 Roberts this year and killed the deer with one shot. The only reason I am considering the .223 again is because my daughter can hunt this coming year. TTSX’s kill fine, but they create relatively small wound channels. I would highly suggest 62gr Federal Fusion, and if your barrel is 8” twist or better- 75gr Speer Gold Dot or Blackhills 77gr TMK. Both, vutvthe TMK specifically can and will create massive damage especially if bones are hit. Excellent post and pics. Thanks, Form.
I belong on eroding granite, among the pines.
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Joined: Feb 2018
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Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: Feb 2018
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The .223 is not my idea of a big game cartridge at all. I also think with the right bullet, distance and placement it will kill about any thing. I had a couple of friends who shot many of Alaska's small deer and black bear with the .223 and they carried it on islands known for big brown bear. When I hunted Montague and other Prince William Sound islands for deer I stepped down from my.338 and took my 30-06.
It is a very popular round in rural Alaska for caribou and some use it for moose. There are many caribou killed with the Mini 14 and AR every year and many run off with bullet holes in them. the winter caribou are not very big and easy to get close to in remote areas and .223 ammo is cheap and every where. So that is what is used in many villages.
So yes, it will kill about any critter, but it is darn sure not ideal for killing about any critter. How small is to small and how far is to far, the debate will never end...…..
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Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 3,395 Likes: 2 |
Form: Any experiences with the 257 weatherby and 100gr Hornady Interlocks ? I've taken around fifty deer with this round and not one has ever taken a step. Ranges from 50-350 yards or so, J Not sure on the Interlocks, but yes with the 257 Bee, though not a ton of animals. It’s done well, but it’s working on the same principles- wide wound path that often directly or indirectly effects the spinal cord/CNS. FormDUDE, You're not going against the grain much with that post...you actually seem to be in agreement with most folks here, for the most part.
I especially agree with your assessment of really hard bullets causing rodeos...unless they hit bone, I have not seen a bullet worse for hunting than a FMJ or a mono at turtle speed. Well I mainly meant going against the masses as a whole on the 223. Not sure there’s is anything that kills slower than a mono that barely opens..... I've lost count of the amount of deer and antelope that I've killed or been in on killing with the 223, while also using it on a few elk. The 223 with good bullets and proper placement seems to kill stuff just as well as anything else, and proper placement with a 223 is a lot easier to achieve than with big boomers. How did it on the elk? I saw where you used a 75gr Amax on one? What about deer at twenty yards?
Only a few under 30. Lots of damage, pure rib shots exit, if shoulders are hit it’s under the skin on the offside. Suddenly the 6.5 Creedmoor feels like a big rifle! Funny. There is so much anti Creedmoor hate going around, both on the internet and even in the military, that I told a buddy and planned to use nothing but the 6.5 this year just so I could make people groan when asked what I used. I killed an elk at a pretty decent clip, and I whitetail at just shy of 500. After that I went back to the 223 because the 6.5 was doing too much damage with the 130gr Berger. grin..... But I’ve also started using other bullets in the 223 on meat because I don’t want to lose most of a quarter every time the the 77gr TMK hits bone. The 223 is capable of creating damage that makes most 30/06’s blush. There is no issue in the biggest of deer with a 77gr TMK inserted in the lungs. You can expect 20’ish inches of penetration, even going through a shoulder, with a three to four inch wide wound channel. If you hit a shoulder, it’s pretty much gone. What about deer at twenty yards?
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Joined: Dec 2008
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Campfire Oracle
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Campfire Oracle
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 78,300 Likes: 1 |
Form- couple good posts!
I agree on most points, though I do love me some monos in the little guns....however on the damage subject I did use the Nosler 64 BSB on a couple deer and considered the damage to be excessive, so quit using them. The monos do indeed leave smaller wounds channels. In the dozens of deer Ive killed and butchered, most looked like they had been killed with a drill ...but if that wound channel is in the right place, Ive had excellent results. Had good results with the old 55 grain Trophy Bonded,and am getting some good results with the 55 Gr. speer Gold Dot.
"...the left considers you vermin, and they'll kill you given the chance..." Bristoe
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Joined: Nov 2007
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Nov 2007
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What bullet you were you using? See my original post: Nosler solid base. 55 grain, which I didn't say before. I don't think there was a better bullet available at the time. Tom The 55 solid base worked great for me. I've got a 172 lb. dressed 8 point hanging on the wall that fell to one of those through the lungs. Range 125 yards, quartering away, bang, flop. Bullet hit at last rib on left side and was recovered, well mushroomed under the hide near the right shoulder. I imagine it would work well on that shot. Placement is everything, but placement requires opportunity. Most of my shots, say over 80%, have been head/neck because that's all that is visible. I'm hunting heavy cover, short range most of the time. The shots come when the deer detect something out of place and pop their heads up above the brush or around the side of a tree to look around for the source. Seeing the body with a clear shot not through brush is pretty unusual. I'll sure take it if I get it but I can't count on it. Some places, some people get enough chances that they can be more selective. This year I never had a single legal opportunity to punch my tag. Anyway, what that buck gave me was a shot I've taken and made with the .257 Roberts and '06 and just never gave it any thought. Head on, head up, so I put the crosshairs where throat meets neck and tripped the sear expecting the bullet to break the spine and come out the top of the neck. Nope. ![frown frown](/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/default/frown.gif) The bullet lost enough weight and velocity passing through the throat and some neck muscle that by the time it hit the spine it didn't have enough momentum left to break the bone. Tom
Anyone who thinks there's two sides to everything hasn't met a M�bius strip.
Here be dragons ...
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Posts: 1,594
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
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Posts: 1,594 |
Form,
I have always had good luck with Partitions, as they have a really soft nose section that comes apart, with the rear section usually punching through. Have you used many in the 6.5 or .223?
The first great thing is to find yourself and for that you need solitude and contemplation. I can tell you deliverance will not come from the rushing noisy centers of civilization. It will come from the lonely places. Fridtjof Nansen
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Joined: Dec 2010
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 19,250 Likes: 3 |
What bullet you were you using? See my original post: Nosler solid base. 55 grain, which I didn't say before. I don't think there was a better bullet available at the time. Tom The 55 solid base worked great for me. I've got a 172 lb. dressed 8 point hanging on the wall that fell to one of those through the lungs. Range 125 yards, quartering away, bang, flop. Bullet hit at last rib on left side and was recovered, well mushroomed under the hide near the right shoulder. I imagine it would work well on that shot. Placement is everything, but placement requires opportunity. Most of my shots, say over 80%, have been head/neck because that's all that is visible. I'm hunting heavy cover, short range most of the time. The shots come when the deer detect something out of place and pop their heads up above the brush or around the side of a tree to look around for the source. Seeing the body with a clear shot not through brush is pretty unusual. I'll sure take it if I get it but I can't count on it. Some places, some people get enough chances that they can be more selective. This year I never had a single legal opportunity to punch my tag. Anyway, what that buck gave me was a shot I've taken and made with the .257 Roberts and '06 and just never gave it any thought. Head on, head up, so I put the crosshairs where throat meets neck and tripped the sear expecting the bullet to break the spine and come out the top of the neck. Nope. ![frown frown](/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/default/frown.gif) The bullet lost enough weight and velocity passing through the throat and some neck muscle that by the time it hit the spine it didn't have enough momentum left to break the bone. Tom So I take it you did in fact kill the deer and were able to do a post mortem to verify bullet performance ?
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Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 60,161 Likes: 13
Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 60,161 Likes: 13 |
I have seen the same thing twice IF that what 's TOM is describing--but both times with 150-grain cup-and-core bullets, one on a mule deer buck that weighed, field-dressed, 232 pounds after a week of hanging in my garage, the other on an average 6x6 elk elk shot just under the chin as it stood looking at the hunter (not me) at less than 100 yards in lodgepole timber.
The elk was only found after half a mile of tracking a very thin blood trail in snow. The bullet, luckily, had partially clipped one of the major blood vessels, so eventually keeled over. The shot on the mule deer was a "finisher" after it had been shot frontally in the center of the chest at 20-25 yards, also in timber. The first bullet exited through the spine at the rear of the ribcage (the buck was standing above me on a moderate slope), but the second was found, minus the core, resting gently against the spine.
As many have pointed out, bullet penetration matters more than cartridge, bullet weight, etc.
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.” John Steinbeck
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Campfire Member
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Campfire Member
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Form- couple good posts!
I agree on most points, though I do love me some monos in the little guns....however on the damage subject I did use the Nosler 64 BSB on a couple deer and considered the damage to be excessive, so quit using them. The monos do indeed leave smaller wounds channels. In the dozens of deer Ive killed and butchered, most looked like they had been killed with a drill ...but if that wound channel is in the right place, Ive had excellent results. Had good results with the old 55 grain Trophy Bonded,and am getting some good results with the 55 Gr. speer Gold Dot. Ingwe, Form, and others, With the monos and the .22 CF calibers, do you tend to alter your shot placement (e.g. aim for the shoulder bones, etc) or possible use only head/neck shots. In other words, what is preferred shot placement with the monos in a 22 caliber? Also, do you differ shot placement depending upon whether using a mono vs. a bonded bullet? Thanks much and great topic, R
Judges 21:25 “Everyone did what was right in his own eyes.”
Liberal=liberated from God...How's that working out?
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 26,275 Likes: 1 |
I know a couple of young Alaskans who've taken plenty of big game, including moose and grizzly, with their .223's. They're kind of puzzled when people say it isn't enough. My teenage son has killed all 5 of his elk with a 243 and 100gr Partitions. His peers apparently keep telling him that's impossible. I keep reminding him to tell his friends, "It's all in the bullet"..............
Casey
Not being married to any particular political party sure makes it a lot easier to look at the world more objectively... Having said that, MAGA.
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Joined: Mar 2007
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 20,253 Likes: 15 |
Form- couple good posts!
I agree on most points, though I do love me some monos in the little guns....however on the damage subject I did use the Nosler 64 BSB on a couple deer and considered the damage to be excessive, so quit using them. The monos do indeed leave smaller wounds channels. In the dozens of deer Ive killed and butchered, most looked like they had been killed with a drill ...but if that wound channel is in the right place, Ive had excellent results. Had good results with the old 55 grain Trophy Bonded,and am getting some good results with the 55 Gr. speer Gold Dot. Ingwe, Form, and others, With the monos and the .22 CF calibers, do you tend to alter your shot placement (e.g. aim for the shoulder bones, etc) or possible use only head/neck shots. In other words, what is preferred shot placement with the monos in a 22 caliber? Also, do you differ shot placement depending upon whether using a mono vs. a bonded bullet? Thanks much and great topic, R Not I. I prefer to aim tight behind the shoulder regardless of bullet, cartridge or animal. Only when the animal is right next to something I don't want him getting to will I change this to a high shoulder shot. Property fences, abysses, whatever.
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Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 19,250 Likes: 3
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 19,250 Likes: 3 |
I have seen the same thing twice IF that what 's TOM is describing--but both times with 150-grain cup-and-core bullets, one on a mule deer buck that weighed, field-dressed, 232 pounds after a week of hanging in my garage, the other on an average 6x6 elk elk shot just under the chin as it stood looking at the hunter (not me) at less than 100 yards in lodgepole timber.
The elk was only found after half a mile of tracking a very thin blood trail in snow. The bullet, luckily, had partially clipped one of the major blood vessels, so eventually keeled over. The shot on the mule deer was a "finisher" after it had been shot frontally in the center of the chest at 20-25 yards, also in timber. The first bullet exited through the spine at the rear of the ribcage (the buck was standing above me on a moderate slope), but the second was found, minus the core, resting gently against the spine.
As many have pointed out, bullet penetration matters more than cartridge, bullet weight, etc. Oh I realise it could happen but unless the deer is killed and a post mortem performed, you can never be sure just what exactly went wrong.
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Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
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Ingwe, Form, and others,
With the monos and the .22 CF calibers, do you tend to alter your shot placement (e.g. aim for the shoulder bones, etc) or possible use only head/neck shots. In other words, what is preferred shot placement with the monos in a 22 caliber? Also, do you differ shot placement depending upon whether using a mono vs. a bonded bullet?
Thanks much and great topic, R
I do not. But I use Barnes bulets and from 53 grains and up they go through all the way all the time. I shoot at a specific internal target and that is whether I am shooting a .223 or something bigger
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