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Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the day of the LORD is near in the valley of decision. (Joel 3:14)

Well Jim,

I don't know what you are, but you certaiinly AREN'T a Cavinist. Not very strong on the soveriegnity of God either. Ditto on eternal security.

The one thing I think I can agree with you on from this post is a rejection of the idea of limited atonement.

Yep.This moment in time is all important..no matter what a person has or hasn't done or believed accepted yesterday.Jim

2nd Corinthians 6;1
We then, as workers together with him, beseech you also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain.


2Cr 6:2 For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.


2Cr 6:3 Giving no offence in any thing, that the ministry be not blamed:

So 1st John 5:13 is a mistake and we should believe your philosophy rather that the clear word of God.

Oh, it's much more clear now.

Sanlen, Don't know where you are coming from with that last on 1st John 5:13.
The owrds of our Lord Jesus clearly differentiate between the Son and the Father and the Holy Spirit.

Here's the whole chapter:
1st John 5:1
� Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.


1Jo 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.


1Jo 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.


1Jo 5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, [even] our faith.


1Jo 5:5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?


1Jo 5:6 � This is he that came by water and blood, [even] Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.


1Jo 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.


1Jo 5:8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.


1Jo 5:9 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son.


1Jo 5:10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.


1Jo 5:11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.


1Jo 5:12 He that hath the Son hath life; [and] he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.


1Jo 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.


1Jo 5:14 � And this is the confidence that we have in him, that, if we ask any thing according to his will, he heareth us:


1Jo 5:15 And if we know that he hear us, whatsoever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we desired of him.


1Jo 5:16 If any man see his brother sin a sin [which is] not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.


1Jo 5:17 All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.


1Jo 5:18 � We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.


1Jo 5:19 [And] we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.


1Jo 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, [even] in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.


1Jo 5:21 Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen

My, that was annoying.

You don't know where I'm coming from with 1John 5:13?

Does the Bible not say that we can know that we have eternal life? Your words indicate that is wrong, that instead we can only know our "right now" condition.

Yes, perhaps if I died right now I'd go to heaven, but who knows if I'll still have eternal life tomorrow? That is my point.

How do you explain your thoughts in light of that?

Sanlen, Sorry, I missed the gist of your question.
Certainly we can know at any time that we 'have' eternal life through Christ's person, work and our faithful acceptance of Him.

I have always understood, given the whole of scripture that this we receive and hold fast by FAITH, counting it as "ours" even tho we have not died nor been caught up to actually possess it for real.

There are hundreds of scriptures pertaining to this new covenant in Christ which speak of this as a promise, future and conditional on we who have begun in Christ by faith, going all the way with and In Him every minute of each day until we one day see Him face to face, hear our names read from the Lamb's book of Life.

1st John is particularly strident in enumerating the hallmarks of those who are Christ's...and those hallmarks of those who by their life and deeds show they are not, regardless of whether they once accepted..Note ALL of 1st John is written to the church, brethren and isn't giving warnings to those who had not at least begun in Christ.

Our confidence hinges on our faithful abiding in Christ, obeying and yielding by faith to His Holy Spirit..
So long as any believer does these simple things, th power for which is ALL given freely of God, that believer has
<the promise> of eternal life.

So as long as one stays on the road and takes no detours nor drives into the ditch, he has the promise of arriving at the promised destination...yet practically speaking, he hasn't yet arrived there..Jim

_______________________________________________________________

Sanlen, I missed this earlier post to me.
You cannot tell what I am?Denominationally?Big deal.There is only ONE Body of Christ.
Hopefully you know what I believe and in whom I trust anyhow..:)

I'm not a calvinist..neither am I an arminian.Didn't even know there were such divisive sects until I'd been born again for near 40 years..:)

I am Christ's.Jesus Christ is my Lord and Savior and I will serve Him only, have put the carnal man to death with Him on the cross, have been baptized in water and the Spirit,and born again from God above.
That's my simple testimony..I could elaborate..:)


I am strong on the sovereignty of God..but do temper conventional thoughts of men with what God has done, said, and revealed to men over the ages and most importantly,

WHAT the Word and Holy Spirit speak plainly of concerning our responsibilities in faith and how He has granted all men the opportunity and the choices.

I believe that there are times in even the believer's life when God, Christ and the angels are literally sitting on the edge of their seats..awaiting our choices with the grace and empowerment they have granted us so freely.

Sadly, many choose poorly..both saved and unsaved..yet He ever calls and pleads with all men to come to Him that they may be forgiven, cleansed,renewed, restored,saved and take from the fountain of Life freely..

And yes, the BLOOD atonement of Christ is NOT limited to some secret elect known of God from the foundation of the world..

A person becomes one of the 'elect' when he by faith responds to God's calling.. ..and remains one of the elect when he continues by faith and grows in grace and knowlege of his Lord & Savior Jesus Christ.
Perseveres, holds fast, confesses even when it might cost him dearly in temporal terms and shuns all ungodliness.
All by faith and all done with God's own enablemnent.BUT it must be done nonetheless...or the profession-confession has no efficacy that will endure.


There is only room for one Lord of a man's heart:

Let it be Christ who dwells in us always..and let our lives. words, deeds and intents reflect only His directives by the Holy Spirit Word and true fellowship of the Body of Christ.Jim

Jim,
Thank you for the answer. I glean from your explanation that what you mean by "have" is not the same as what I do. The promises of Christ that we who are His can not be separated from Him and He will in no ways lose, combined with John's words here say something different to me. Eternal means eternal, life means life, know means know. To me it is clear that we are as sure for heaven as we would be if we were already there. I can no more keep myself saved than I can earn my salvation in the first place, but "And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it". (1st Thessalonians 5:23-24)

Sanlen, so being so assured, can a man do what he wants after being saved and confessing Christ?
Drunkeness, whoring,partaking in pornography, drugs, idolatry, murder,lust for money. bearing false witness, envy, rape, jealousies, ???

all the 'good life' according to human ( carnal unregenerate man) terms?
Can't see how that would be following Christ..but if I read you right with your once saved always saved thinking, if any person once saved did these things it's cool with God?
BS.

Unconditional eternal security ...you have no responsibility in faithful obedience?

Does that work for you? IS it working for you?

Never did for me.I knew better even when I was tempted to take the easy grace believism years and years ago..
THE HOLY SPIRIT TOLD ME, CALLED ME BACK,,
This is NOT the WAY, TRUTH OR LIFE..It is the way of death.

Word and Holy Spirit showed me that unconditional eternal security was false doctrine straight from satan...and the way to death...

Man I have had some near death(physically) experiences and known the incredible pain of quenching and grieving the Holy Spirit when I did what I wanted..I KNOW WHAT IT FEELS LIKE TO BE AGAIN SEPARATED FROM MY FATHER IN HEAVEN BY SIN...and I don't like it.

God always called me back gently,( or forcefully) and thankfully I always came back..wiser and more astute on this great salvation...and my responsibilities by FAITH in seeing it work in me and for Him.

For me??
I am secure when walking in His Spirit, following and confessing Christ..ministering Christ crucified..healing, saving, delivering..destroying every work of satan He leads me into combat to execute.

IF we confes our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Think of that as and IF/THEN theorum.

IF we fail by faith to recognize and confess our sins, then what is our state before a righteous andd holy God?
DUUUUH.

I could go on but only the Holy Spirit working personally on you will change your heartset in this matter.

In the meantime, I consider you my brother in Christ and a member of His Body..tho I speak bluntly..time is short..

..Today is the day for us to affirm by faithful lives our salvation in Christ....
Serve well.Jim

Jim,
Thank you for the answer. I glean from your explanation that what you mean by "have" is not the same as what I do. The promises of Christ that we who are His can not be separated from Him and He will in no ways lose, combined with John's words here say something different to me. Eternal means eternal, life means life, know means know. To me it is clear that we are as sure for heaven as we would be if we were already there. I can no more keep myself saved than I can earn my salvation in the first place, but "And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it". (1st Thessalonians 5:23-24)

Sanlen, here's what I posted earlier which you possibly didn't read/see.


Sanlen,
So being so assured, can a man do what he wants after being saved and confessing Christ?
Drunkeness, whoring,partaking in pornography, drugs, idolatry, murder,lust for money. bearing false witness, envy, rape, jealousies, ???

all the 'good life' according to human ( carnal unregenerate man) terms?
Can't see how that would be following Christ..but if I read you right with your once saved always saved thinking, if any person once saved did these things it's cool with God?
BS.

Unconditional eternal security ...you have no responsibility in faithful obedience?

Does that work for you? IS it working for you?

Never did for me.I knew better even when I was tempted to take the easy grace believism years and years ago..
THE HOLY SPIRIT TOLD ME, CALLED ME BACK,,
This is NOT the WAY, TRUTH OR LIFE..It is the way of death.

Word and Holy Spirit showed me that unconditional eternal security was false doctrine straight from satan...and the way to death...

Man I have had some near death(physically) experiences and known the incredible pain of quenching and grieving the Holy Spirit when I did what I wanted..I KNOW WHAT IT FEELS LIKE TO BE AGAIN SEPARATED FROM MY FATHER IN HEAVEN BY SIN...and I don't like it.

God always called me back gently,( or forcefully) and thankfully I always came back..wiser and more astute on this great salvation...and my responsibilities by FAITH in seeing it work in me and for Him.

For me??
I am secure when walking in His Spirit, following and confessing Christ..ministering Christ crucified..healing, saving, delivering..destroying every work of satan He leads me into combat to execute.

IF we confes our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Think of that as and IF/THEN theorum.

IF we fail by faith to recognize and confess our sins, then what is our state before a righteous andd holy God?
DUUUUH.

I could go on but only the Holy Spirit working personally on you will change your heartset in this matter.

In the meantime, I consider you my brother in Christ and a member of His Body..tho I speak bluntly..time is short..

..Today is the day for us to affirm by faithful lives our salvation in Christ....
Serve well.Jim

Huh? That is not "having", that is just desire. Knowing that we have eternal life means knowing, not hoping. Granted, there are verses that speak of our coming eternity as our blessed hope, but that is (as you mention) simply because we are not there yet. Many verses, such as 1st John 5:13, tell us that we can KNOW that we HAVE eternal life. Christ Himself told us that He gives to us eternal life, and that those who are dead will live, and those who are alive will never die. We see by faith, and by faith KNOW it is ours and, by the promise of God (which is unconditional) cannot be taken away. You say this is something that is our hope, and if we toe the line and keep our salvation, we might just make it. Even Paul said he could not keep himself saved. It is the gift of God.

You and I simply disagree. You say you believe in the soveriegnity of God, but your understanding of the word "soveriegn" is very different than mine. Your interpretation of soveriegn seems to have something to do with "God, Christ and the angels are literally sitting on the edge of their seats ... awaiting our choices" so that they can find out what man will let God do. That is not my idea of soveriegn. It is not my idea of the omnipotent God, or an omniscient God. God is never surprised, and He is never waiting on man to tell Him what He can do next. He knows what He is going to do, what decisions we will make, and they are always wrong when left to ourselves.

Easy believism? Then you were doing something wrong. I have never met (though I have not met everyone, obviously) who believed they could live any way they wanted after salvation who was really trusting in Christ. They have never seen the Lord bleeding His life blood for them and understood the verse concerning trampling His blood under our feet.

This is not the post I would prefer to write, and it is not my intention to appear mean. I have toned this down considerably because of that, but wished I could have skipped it entirely. In fact, I wanted to move on to something else some time ago, but your posts required an answer. In any event, I've probably (as a friend recently told me) wasted enough electrons on this.

Sanlen, I'm glad you "have" eternal live right now.

Elsewhere in scripture, it is spoken of as being possessed by faith, looking forward to the promise with all the IF/THEN conditions to be observed.See verse 7 below.

1Tit 3:4
But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,


Tts 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;


Tts 3:6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;


Tts 3:7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.


and again:
Luke 12:8
Also I say unto you, Whosoever shall confess me before men, him shall the Son of man also confess before the angels of God:


Luk 12:9 But he that denieth me before men shall be denied before the angels of God.
and again:
Rev 3:1
And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead.


Rev 3:2 Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God.


Rev 3:3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.


Rev 3:4 Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy.


Rev 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.


Rev 3:6 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.
and again:
1 John 1:9
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

and again:
1 Peter 2:20
For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.


2Pe 2:21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known [it], to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.


2Pe 2:22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog [is] turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

and again:
Rom 8:11
But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.


Rom 8:12 � Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.


Rom 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.


Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

and again
ND verse 7..

Romans 2:4
Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?


Rom 2:5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;


Rom 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:


Rom 2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:


Rom 2:8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,


Rom 2:9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;


Rom 2:10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:


Rom 2:11 For there is no respect of persons with God.


Rom 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;


Rom 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law [are] just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.


Lastly, you didn't answer my question concerning sin in the confessing believer's life..nor what state he would be in if he hardens his heart against the Holy Spirit's pleadings and continues in it, unrepentent and the sin unconfessed and not brought under the blood of Christ.
Does that one still "have" eternal Life in Christ or is he in danger?

Lasdtly consider the Apostle Paul's IF/THEN and his by the Spirit description of what manner of life the believer should be living IN Christ.Jim
Rom 6:1

What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?


Rom 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?


Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?


Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.


Rom 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also [in the likeness] of [his] resurrection:


Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with [him], that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.


Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.


Rom 6:8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:


Rom 6:9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.


Rom 6:10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.


Rom 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.


Rom 6:12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.


Rom 6:13 Neither yield ye your members [as] instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members [as] instruments of righteousness unto God.


Rom 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.


Rom 6:15 � What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.


Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?


Rom 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.


Rom 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.


Peace..Jim

Sanlen, your beliefs are contradictory and not scriptural.
On the one hand you claim any believer who has accepted and confessed Christ as Savior and Lord HAS Eternal Life now.Irrevocable.

Then you say:
"I have never met (though I have not met everyone, obviously) who believed they could live any way they wanted after salvation who was really trusting in Christ. They have never seen the Lord bleeding His life blood for them and understood the verse concerning trampling His blood under our feet."

According to your 'faith' in unconditional security and having an irrevocable eternal Life in Christ NOW, what would it matter IF that believer sinned onece, twice, continually and failed by obedient faith to repent, confess, forsake the sins and AGAIN be washed and sanctified by Christ's blood?

Hebrews 10:26
For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,


Hbr 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.


Hbr 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:


Hbr 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?


Hbr 10:30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance [belongeth] unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people

and again:NB verse 12:

Hebrews 10:9
But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.


Hbr 6:10 For God [is] not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have shewed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister.


Hbr 6:11 And we desire that every one of you do shew the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end:


Hbr 6:12 That ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises.


Hbr 6:13 � For when God made promise to Abraham, because he could swear by no greater, he sware by himself,


Hbr 6:14 Saying, Surely blessing I will bless thee, and multiplying I will multiply thee.


Hbr 6:15 And so, after he had patiently endured, he obtained the promise.

and again:
(what's verse 21 saying concerning faith which keeps us secure?)

Jude 1:3
Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort [you] that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.


Jud 1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.


Jud 1:5 � I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.


Jud 1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.


Jud 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.


Jud 1:8 Likewise also these [filthy] dreamers defile the flesh, despise dominion, and speak evil of dignities.


Jud 1:9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.


Jud 1:10 But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves.


Jud 1:11 Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Core.


Jud 1:12 � These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds [they are] without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;


Jud 1:13 Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.


Jud 1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,


Jud 1:15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard [speeches] which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.


Jud 1:16 � These are murmurers, complainers, walking after their own lusts; and their mouth speaketh great swelling [words], having men's persons in admiration because of advantage.


Jud 1:17 But, beloved, remember ye the words which were spoken before of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ;


Jud 1:18 How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts.


Jud 1:19 These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit.


Jud 1:20 � But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost,


Jud 1:21 Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.


Jud 1:22 And of some have compassion, making a difference:


Jud 1:23 And others save with fear, pulling [them] out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.
and again:
Hebrews 10:35
Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompence of reward.


Hbr 10:36 For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.


Hbr 10:37 For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry.


Hbr 10:38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if [any man] draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.


Hbr 10:39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.



Jud 1:24 � Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present [you] faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,


Jud 1:25 To the only wise God our Saviour, [be] glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.
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Sanlen, IF what you believe about eternal security being here and now and irrevocable, there's a WHOLE lot of plain scriptures with pleadings, admonitions, warnings and examples which we can just throw out as garbage.
Read Revelation Chapter 2-3 and Christ's message to the churches.
Sounds like He was concerned..as we should be.
I KNOW that throwing the conditional scriptures out or ignoring them is not valid but that's what you intone and imply.Jim

So Jim,
Now, besides having knowledge of all scripture and the corner on the Holy Spirit, you feel that you can say what verses in the Bible are trash.

I know that wasn't what you said, but it certainly looks like that is what you mean. A little clue. When verses in the Bible appear to contradict other verses in the Bible, the interpretation is wrong, not the verses. While you would say that would mean my view is wrong, perhaps you should turn that around and look at your view again.

You continually bring out these mostly unsubstantiated ideas, then quote vast verses out of the Bible with no explanation. When pressed for the meaning you usually come back with some rediculous statement like "The Bible is my interpretation". Total malarky.

My view is explained, and in harmony with the whole of scripture. You don't have to agree, but I would appreciate a little more in-depth analysis of the verses you cut and paste. Do you just think we all lost our Bibles, or what?

Existentialism came about because of the push for more and more abstract ideas pushed by the movement leaders, of which Calvin was certainly one. What exists here and now. My God lives in me, and the life He gives will never die. Has He given that life to you, or do you feel everything has a string, especially one that sinful man can never pull?

Play nice, boys.

Sanlen, Your last post is classic evasion and word twisting.

If you 'interpret' the plain scriptures which I endeavored to show support clearly that our security is conditional on continued faith and accompanying obedience, no wonder we have such a great gulf fixed beteen how each believes the Christian should live his life or this sound doctrine..

Your answer to this simple question I asked several times previously will tell the tale:

What happens when the Jesus Christ is Lord and Savior confessing believer falls into sin??

What state would he be in if he hardens his heart against the Holy Spirit's pleadings and continues in it, unrepentent,the sin unconfessed and not brought under the blood of Christ...and dies in that known, unconfessed sin???

Does that one still "have" your irrevocable eternal Life in Christ ???

Conversely, (IF your belief that he's got eternal life which cannot be lost, thrown aside or revoked is valid),

IF he DOES repent, confess and forsake the sin, why would he need to bother to repent and turn from his sins or exercise any faithful obedience at all?? ..

______________________________________________________

Shootist,not sure about others here, but I'm not 'playing'..Jim

No, that's what I said you were doing. If you're going to accuse me of something, at least be original.



Again, we have different meanings for words here. That explains why you simply post sections of scripture with no explanation. You think "interpret" means to make it say what you want. I find "interpret" works better as "what does it mean". You can go on and on about "it means what it says", but that doesn't tell me what you think it means. In that case it means what I think it means, and can't help your arguement in the least.




And I answered it several times, you just refuse to listen. This happens to untold numbers of believers everyday. David is best used as an example to explain this. If you recall (or should I quote the whole books of Chronicles and Kings here?), David fell into gross sin. He not only committed adultery with another man's wife, but when she was found to be with child he tried to cover his sin, and when that didn't work proceded to murder her husband.

The Lord knew this, caused judgment, and brought David back in line. But, though he was forgiven, still had to pay the earthly consequences of that sin. In his Psalms and writings concerning this, David tells us of God's unwavoring love for him, even describing David a a man after God's own heart. David says that he desired a renewal of the fellowship with God.

The answer to your question, and one I have both seen and sadly experienced even in my own life,is that the child of God is out of fellowship with God, but still His child.

We have seen this wih our own children. They may do something that makes it impossible for us to relate with them as we would like until they correct their behavior, but they are still our child. Our love for them is unchanged. If we died they would still be our heir. The same is true with the backsliden xhild of God. God can't (won't) bless us luke He wants to, but He is still our Father.



See the answer above. The answer is miserable, and after death a very sad child. But if he or she had trusted in Christ and was truly saved they are still a child of God.



It isn't mine. It is God's, but the answer is yes.



See the first answer again. To renew their fellowship and joy in life with God. There is no more miserable person on earth than the backslidden Christian. If someone claims to be a Christian, but can sin with no panges of sorrow, I would question their salvation at all. In short, those who can sin willfully without regret have no part of Christ. The Spirit within them will not allow it.

Now let me ask you one. If, as you believe, you can be "saved", having put your faith and trust in the blood of Christ, and then sin so terribly (what ever that could be, since Paul tells us that nothing can separate us from the love of Christ) that you would no longer go to heaven if you died in that state, how do you then be restored, since the Bible tells us plainly there is no longer any sacrifice for sin, having trampled Christ' blood? You would then be lost forever. _____________________________________________________

Shootist,not sure about others here, but I'm not 'playing'..Jim [/quote]

Keith, this is about as nice as it gets. Believe me, other descriptions come to the mind from the "old man".

Sanlen, While we apparently read the same scriptures, and even in the same KJV, you and I aren't communicating well.
I dfon't think you've read much of anything I have posted nor the plain scriptures.

You do and believe what you will.
I choose by faith to walk in the Spirit.Jim

1 Cor 10:1
Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;


1Cr 10:2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;


1Cr 10:3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat;


1Cr 10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.


1Cr 10:5 But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness.


1Cr 10:6 Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted.


1Cr 10:7 Neither be ye idolaters, as [were] some of them; as it is written, The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play.


1Cr 10:8 Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand.


1Cr 10:9 Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents.


1Cr 10:10 Neither murmur ye, as some of them also murmured, and were destroyed of the destroyer.


1Cr 10:11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.


1Cr 10:12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.


1Cr 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God [is] faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear [it].