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in some of the older reloading books, elmer keiths load of 22grains of 2400 is mentioned with the 429421 bullet.
current reloading books use about 20.5 grains plus or minus a little.
i realize the composition of 2400 has changed, but has anybody loaded that 22 grains of 2400 behind that bullet?
and if so, what happened?
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I stopped at 20gn. Usually load at 19. Anything hotter I go with H110, 296 or N110.
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What is the point in overloading?
Elmer wiped his asss with a pine cone too - wanna try it cause Elmer did it?
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What is the point in overloading?
Elmer wiped his asss with a pine cone too - wanna try it cause Elmer did it? lot of things i could say, but you just ain't worth it.
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Many, if not most of the load data for rifles and handguns, from 2 or 3 decades ago, using the same powders.....has been reduced! It seems to be pretty common! I believe, and I may be incorrect, but once a powder reaches the consumer market, with a specific designation (example 2400).....it must continue to be manufactured with those specifications! memtb
You should not use a rifle that will kill an animal when everything goes right; you should use one that will do the job when everything goes wrong." -Bob Hagel
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Pretty interesting test done by Larry Gibson on the cast bullet forum: http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?72355-B-2400-Hercules-vs-Alliant-B&highlight=2400Shows actual results (pressure/velocity) using the 429421 and 20.5, 21.0, 21.5, and 22.0gr of Old H2400 and new Alliant 2400. If you scroll down past the verbiage (about 1/4 to 1/3 down the page), you can see the results. I'm pretty sure he was using an Oehler (SP?) unit that measurers pressure. FWIW, Paul
Last edited by paul105; 01/18/19.
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paul, thank you for that article it was what i was looking for.
i have pet loads by ken waters, he suggested as a pet load 22grains of 2400 with the 429421, which also suppose to be the elmer load.
i have reloading books going back to the 60's and up to the current date.
i was looking in a hornady book where without looking at had about 20 plus grains as max, but same bullet in the thompson contender they gave a maximum load wt of over 23grains.
i know the difference between a revolver and a contender but that seemed a lot.
then i got to thinking of a super redhawk, or a black hawk.
i don't typically if ever push loads up to the firewall, but it got me thinking.
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in some of the older reloading books, elmer keiths load of 22grains of 2400 is mentioned with the 429421 bullet.
current reloading books use about 20.5 grains plus or minus a little.
i realize the composition of 2400 has changed, but has anybody loaded that 22 grains of 2400 behind that bullet?
and if so, what happened? I have before I switched to H-110/W-296. Infact I’ve gone as high as 23 grains. Factories in 60’s and early 70 loaded 240 44 mag loads to 1400 plus FPS. in fact Brain Pierce wrote that Winchester loaded a 240 grain jacketed to an advertised 1650 FPS thar got closer to 1t50 in actual revolvers. I don’t know how much if any 2400 has changed but I do know that the old standard pressure fir 44 mag and 357 mag was 40,000 CUP but was changed to 36,000 PSI when they changed to PSI.
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SAAMI specs on the 44 Magnum is STILL 40,000 CUP or 36,000 PSI depending on the type of pressure gun. PERIOD.
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SAAMI specs on the 44 Magnum is STILL 40,000 CUP or 36,000 PSI depending on the type of pressure gun. PERIOD. I ain’t buying that. I shot those 60’s and early 70’s loads and that wer 1400 FPS plus. I chronographed some early 70 Remington JHP recently that I had saved and they were 1400 FOS in my M 29. The speeds from factory Ammo dropped when they switched over. If they were the same then the speed would not have dropped.
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I'd like to know what the fugk people are shooting at that requires that load.
Not that it's any of my business of course.
Trump being classless,tasteless and clueless as usual. Sorry, trump is a no tax payin pile of shiit. My young wife decided to play the field and had moved several dudes into my house
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All I know is if 40,000 CUPs is equal to 36,000 PSI Remington, Winchester, Federal are all SAAMI members were grossly exceed the SAAMI pressure.
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All I know is if 40,000 CUPs is equal to 36,000 PSI Remington, Winchester, Federal are all SAAMI members were grossly exceed the SAAMI pressure. The voice of intelligence. Ha Ha Ha
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Ya'll debating pressure in a .44 Mag when you could just use the mighty .380...but, I won't criticize anybody that avoids that level of abuse.
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I'd like to know what the fugk people are shooting at that requires that load.
Not that it's any of my business of course. Chihuahuas. If you gotta shoot a bear you go with the 9 unless you're assshooting him and then you use the 600 Dinosaur or whatnot.
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All I know is if 40,000 CUPs is equal to 36,000 PSI Remington, Winchester, Federal are all SAAMI members were grossly exceed the SAAMI pressure. The voice of intelligence. Ha Ha Ha Brainiac, explain the difference in velocity of the older factory loads and today’s
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All I know is if 40,000 CUPs is equal to 36,000 PSI Remington, Winchester, Federal are all SAAMI members were grossly exceed the SAAMI pressure. The voice of intelligence. Ha Ha Ha Brainiac, explain the difference in velocity of the older factory loads and today’s Give me an example of the velocity differences you are talking about. You made the statement concerning pressures from out of your hat. I stated an easily researched bit of information on that many seem to not be able to get through their heads that 36,000PSI and 40,000CUP is the difference between a peizo transducer pressure gun and a copper crusher pressure gun as both are referenced with the same reference ammo. Tell me wizard which is more 1 inch or 25.4 MM? Same situation.
Last edited by glockdoofus; 01/19/19.
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Older .44 Mag ammo is noticeably hotter than it is today. If you haven’t run any of the current crop of factory .44 Mag ammo over a chronograph, you should. It will be eye opening and underwhelming. There is no reliable CUP to PSI conversion, but it is my understanding that 40,000 CUP is considerably higher than 36,000 PSI.
Sorry for the thread hijacking.
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Older .44 Mag ammo is noticeably hotter than it is today. If you haven’t run any of the current crop of factory .44 Mag ammo over a chronograph, you should. It will be eye opening and underwhelming. There is no reliable CUP to PSI conversion, but it is my understanding that 40,000 CUP is considerably higher than 36,000 PSI.
Sorry for the thread hijacking. Your understanding of the pressure guns and the type and how they are referenced is flawed. Give me some actual examples of rhe chrono results of the old ammo you are talking about. Not some hearsay of the chronoing of ammo that has been kept in questionable storage etc..
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You clearly know more than I do so I will leave you to it.
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You clearly know more than I do so I will leave you to it.
I am asking you to give some accurate chronograph data on the old 44 Mag ammo. You made the statement about it. Now I am not talking about some old ammo that has been in quesrionable storage where the powder could have broken down etc.. How simple is that. The information I gave on SAAMI specs and how the pressure guns are referenced is easy to do. SAAMI has a website.
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Nah, I’m not going to engage. I do this crap for a living and I’m too burned out to get into this on a forum. Sorry.
Refer to Brian Pearce’s chronograph data from Guns magazine where he recreated Elmer Keith’s 600 yard mule deer kill. If the ammo he procured was poorly stored and it’s condition degraded, it still averaged a higher velocity than similar contemporary loads by a margin. Would it have been even faster when new/fresh? It’s likely.
Have at it gentlemen. It’s Saturday and I have better things to do this morning.
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I already gave you a velocity of early 70s Remington factory load 240 grain JHP was 1400 FPS, newer manufactured depending on brand is between 1180 and 1240 FPS useing an Olher 35.
I know what is claimed that the 40,000 CUPS is equal to 36,000 PSI, but that doesn’t wash since they were loading and testing with only the CUP method the velocities were higher, therefore they can’t truly be equal.
Brain Pierce wrote that the 60s Winchester loaf claimed 1650 FPS, but shot closer to 1550 out of real revolvers.
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Nah, I’m not going to engage. I do this crap for a living and I’m too burned out to get into this on a forum. Sorry.
Refer to Brian Pearce’s chronograph data from Guns magazine where he recreated Elmer Keith’s 600 yard mule deer kill. If the ammo he procured was poorly stored and it’s condition degraded, it still averaged a higher velocity than similar contemporary loads by a margin. Would it have been even faster when new/fresh? It’s likely.
Have at it gentlemen. It’s Saturday and I have better things to do this morning. How much higher? Was the differerence within the normal variation between firearms of the same barrel length. Was it jacketed or lead bullets? What was it? If lead had the lube the factory use maybe degraded and cause a problem with velocity? Lets get the details. Since you do this for a living and you are famous so call pearce and ask him some pertinent questions.
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I already gave you a velocity of early 70s Remington factory load 240 grain JHP was 1400 FPS, newer manufactured depending on brand is between 1180 and 1240 FPS useing an Olher 35.
I know what is claimed that the 40,000 CUPS is equal to 36,000 PSI, but that doesn’t wash since they were loading and testing with only the CUP method the velocities were higher, therefore they can’t truly be equal.
Brain Pierce wrote that the 60s Winchester loaf claimed 1650 FPS, but shot closer to 1550 out of real revolvers. Give the specifics on the test you are talking about. Barrel length? Where did you got the velocities? From whom did you get the information? Did you actually do the test yourself?
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Cant you read I clearly stated an Olher 35. My barrel length was 6” the same revolver that got between 1180 and 1240 with recently manufactured Ammo.
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Cant you read I clearly stated an Olher 35. My barrel length was 6” the same revolver that got between 1180 and 1240 with recently manufactured Ammo.
What brand of ammo? Did you chronograph the actual ammo? Are you quoting off the box on the aforementioned ammo? Give some details of you chronographing epiphany.
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Never claimed fame. You can call Brian Pearce if you want or simply get online and find the article. In fact I will dig up the date of the publication and you. I’m a bit surprised you don’t know about that particular test.
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No I chronographed recent manufactured, Winchester, Speer, Fiochii, Federal. Actual chronographed these loads.
Recent manufactured Buffalo Bore and Underwood equaled the old Remington loads at 1400 FPS.
I understand your take, because that’s what SAAMI claims but I know because I’m old enough to know that today’s SAAMI me,be5 Ammo is not loaded to the same higher velocity as the older stuff since the switch to PSI. Denton’s conversion works reasonable well it shows 40,000 CUP to be closer to 43,500 PSI.
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Never claimed fame. You can call Brian Pearce if you want or simply get online and find the article. In fact I will dig up the date of the publication and you. I am asking you. You made a statement on velocity with a declaring declaration.
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Brian Pearce wrote that the older loads were faster than today’s, faster means higher pressure.
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No I chronographed recent manufactured, Winchester, Speer, Fiochii, Federal. Actual chronographed these loads.
Recent manufactured Buffalo Bore and Underwood equaled the old Remington loads at 1400 FPS.
I understand your take, because that’s what SAAMI claims but I know because I’m old enough to know that today’s SAAMI me,be5 Ammo is not loaded to the same higher velocity as the older stuff since the switch to PSI. Denton’s conversion works reasonable well it shows 40,000 CUP to be closer to 43,500 PSI.
I am 66 and have been reloading for over 40 years. Not that means anything. look at a lot of others.
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October 2009 issue of Handloader - not Guns, my mistake.
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No I chronographed recent manufactured, Winchester, Speer, Fiochii, Federal. Actual chronographed these loads.
Recent manufactured Buffalo Bore and Underwood equaled the old Remington loads at 1400 FPS.
I understand your take, because that’s what SAAMI claims but I know because I’m old enough to know that today’s SAAMI me,be5 Ammo is not loaded to the same higher velocity as the older stuff since the switch to PSI. Denton’s conversion works reasonable well it shows 40,000 CUP to be closer to 43,500 PSI.
I am 66 and have been reloading for over 40 years. Not that means anything. look at a lot of others. I’m talking factory loads not hand loads. I’ve got yo7 by a couple of years. Incidentally the same happened with the 357 mag.
Last edited by jwp475; 01/19/19.
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No I chronographed recent manufactured, Winchester, Speer, Fiochii, Federal. Actual chronographed these loads.
Recent manufactured Buffalo Bore and Underwood equaled the old Remington loads at 1400 FPS.
I understand your take, because that’s what SAAMI claims but I know because I’m old enough to know that today’s SAAMI me,be5 Ammo is not loaded to the same higher velocity as the older stuff since the switch to PSI. Denton’s conversion works reasonable well it shows 40,000 CUP to be closer to 43,500 PSI.
I am 66 and have been reloading for over 40 years. Not that means anything. look at a lot of others. I’m talking factory loads not hand loads. I’ve got yo7 by a couple of years. Incidentally the same happened with the 357 mag. I know what you are talking about. Which load gave 1180 and 1240 FPS? Do you remember?
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No I chronographed recent manufactured, Winchester, Speer, Fiochii, Federal. Actual chronographed these loads.
Recent manufactured Buffalo Bore and Underwood equaled the old Remington loads at 1400 FPS.
I understand your take, because that’s what SAAMI claims but I know because I’m old enough to know that today’s SAAMI me,be5 Ammo is not loaded to the same higher velocity as the older stuff since the switch to PSI. Denton’s conversion works reasonable well it shows 40,000 CUP to be closer to 43,500 PSI.
I am 66 and have been reloading for over 40 years. Not that means anything. look at a lot of others. I’m talking factory loads not hand loads. I’ve got yo7 by a couple of years. Incidentally the same happened with the 357 mag. I know what you are talking about. Which load gave 1180 and 1240 FPS? Do you remember? I don’t remember the velocity for each, my notes only indicate, some brand or brands were 1180 and some hit 1240 FPS. the early 70’s Remington JHP got 1400 FPS. You are old enough to remember the ear splitting sound of those early loads in 357 mag I have a 1969 reloading Manuel that show 23 grains of 2400 behind a warp grain bullet in 44 mag.
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No I chronographed recent manufactured, Winchester, Speer, Fiochii, Federal. Actual chronographed these loads.
Recent manufactured Buffalo Bore and Underwood equaled the old Remington loads at 1400 FPS.
I understand your take, because that’s what SAAMI claims but I know because I’m old enough to know that today’s SAAMI me,be5 Ammo is not loaded to the same higher velocity as the older stuff since the switch to PSI. Denton’s conversion works reasonable well it shows 40,000 CUP to be closer to 43,500 PSI.
I am 66 and have been reloading for over 40 years. Not that means anything. look at a lot of others. I’m talking factory loads not hand loads. I’ve got yo7 by a couple of years. Incidentally the same happened with the 357 mag. I know what you are talking about. Which load gave 1180 and 1240 FPS? Do you remember? I don’t remember the velocity for each, my notes only indicate, some brand or brands were 1180 and some hit 1240 FPS. the early 70’s Remington JHP got 1400 FPS. You are old enough to remember the ear splitting sound of those early loads in 357 mag I have a 1969 reloading Manuel that show 23 grains of 2400 behind a warp grain bullet in 44 mag. Although I am 66 I have never heard of a warp grain bullet. Which brand gave the 1180 and the 1240.
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That’s a typo should be 240 grain. Those keys do both letters and numbers and I didn’t proof read.
Again I do not remember which brands did the 1180 and which brands that did 1240. No load that I chronographed in my M29 went below 1180 and none went above 1280. As I remember it was one or the other speed. It was 2008 when I did this
Just buy some recent manufactured 44 mag of manufacturers that are SAAMI members and chronograph them yourself, you should get similar numbers that I got.
I’ve still got a few of the 70s Remington 240 JHP loads that I can chronograph again if needed
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That’s a typo should be 240 grain. Those keys do both letters and numbers and I didn’t proof read.
Again I do not remember which brands did the 1180 and which brands that did 1240. No load that I chronographed in my M29 went below 1180 and none went above 1280. As I remember it was one or the other speed. It was 2008 when I did this
Just buy some recent manufactured 44 mag of manufacturers that are SAAMI members and chronograph them yourself, you should get similar numbers that I got.
I’ve still got a few of the 70s Remington 240 JHP loads that I can chronograph again if needed
What barrel length is that M29? 4, 6, 6.5, 8.375 inch. Maybe a 3 inch?
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If one is NOT a SAAMI member one IS NOT REQUIRED to adhere to their specifications. The ammo can be loaded with "blow the doors off loads" so that doesnt compute in this conversation.
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If one is NOT a SAAMI member one IS NOT REQUIRED to adhere to their specifications. The ammo can be loaded with "blow the doors off loads" so that doesnt compute in this conversation. I know this and that is why Buffalo Bore and Underwood just to name 2.
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
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If one is NOT a SAAMI member one IS NOT REQUIRED to adhere to their specifications. The ammo can be loaded with "blow the doors off loads" so that doesnt compute in this conversation. I know this and that is why Buffalo Bore and Underwood just to name 2. Again what barrel length was that M29 Smith.
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That’s a typo should be 240 grain. Those keys do both letters and numbers and I didn’t proof read.
Again I do not remember which brands did the 1180 and which brands that did 1240. No load that I chronographed in my M29 went below 1180 and none went above 1280. As I remember it was one or the other speed. It was 2008 when I did this
Just buy some recent manufactured 44 mag of manufacturers that are SAAMI members and chronograph them yourself, you should get similar numbers that I got.
I’ve still got a few of the 70s Remington 240 JHP loads that I can chronograph again if needed
What barrel length is that M29? 4, 6, 6.5, 8.375 inch. Maybe a 3 inch? I have answered this already, when you asked earlier, why do yo7 ask th3 same question over that has already been answered? I’ll answer it one last time all loads were chronographed in a 6” model 29.
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
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That’s a typo should be 240 grain. Those keys do both letters and numbers and I didn’t proof read.
Again I do not remember which brands did the 1180 and which brands that did 1240. No load that I chronographed in my M29 went below 1180 and none went above 1280. As I remember it was one or the other speed. It was 2008 when I did this
Just buy some recent manufactured 44 mag of manufacturers that are SAAMI members and chronograph them yourself, you should get similar numbers that I got.
I’ve still got a few of the 70s Remington 240 JHP loads that I can chronograph again if needed
What barrel length is that M29? 4, 6, 6.5, 8.375 inch. Maybe a 3 inch? I have answered this already, when you asked earlier, why do yo7 ask th3 same question over that has already been answered? I’ll answer it one last time all loads were chronographed in a 6” model 29. You just stated the barrel length. Not the gun. Then you menrioned the M29. How did I know the 6 inch wasnt a custom etc.? Did any other ammo give you velocities that were in the ballpark you play in?
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That’s a typo should be 240 grain. Those keys do both letters and numbers and I didn’t proof read.
Again I do not remember which brands did the 1180 and which brands that did 1240. No load that I chronographed in my M29 went below 1180 and none went above 1280. As I remember it was one or the other speed. It was 2008 when I did this
Just buy some recent manufactured 44 mag of manufacturers that are SAAMI members and chronograph them yourself, you should get similar numbers that I got.
I’ve still got a few of the 70s Remington 240 JHP loads that I can chronograph again if needed
What barrel length is that M29? 4, 6, 6.5, 8.375 inch. Maybe a 3 inch? I have answered this already, when you asked earlier, why do yo7 ask th3 same question over that has already been answered? I’ll answer it one last time all loads were chronographed in a 6” model 29. You just stated the barrel length. Not the gun. Then you menrioned the M29. How did I know the 6 inch wasnt a custom etc.? Did any other ammo give you velocities that were in the ballpark you play in? The newly manufactured Ammo of Winchester, fiochii, Federal, Speer was from 1180 to 1240 FPS, depending on brand in my m29. The early 70s Remington 240 JHP went 1400 FPS. I know that when I shot IHMSA guys shooting Federal factory Ammo was hotter than my reloads with 22 grains of 2400.
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
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That’s a typo should be 240 grain. Those keys do both letters and numbers and I didn’t proof read.
Again I do not remember which brands did the 1180 and which brands that did 1240. No load that I chronographed in my M29 went below 1180 and none went above 1280. As I remember it was one or the other speed. It was 2008 when I did this
Just buy some recent manufactured 44 mag of manufacturers that are SAAMI members and chronograph them yourself, you should get similar numbers that I got.
I’ve still got a few of the 70s Remington 240 JHP loads that I can chronograph again if needed
What barrel length is that M29? 4, 6, 6.5, 8.375 inch. Maybe a 3 inch? I have answered this already, when you asked earlier, why do yo7 ask th3 same question over that has already been answered? I’ll answer it one last time all loads were chronographed in a 6” model 29. You just stated the barrel length. Not the gun. Then you menrioned the M29. How did I know the 6 inch wasnt a custom etc.? Did any other ammo give you velocities that were in the ballpark you play in? The newly manufactured Ammo of Winchester, fiochii, Federal, Speer was from 1180 to 1240 FPS, depending on brand in my m29. The early 70s Remington 240 JHP went 1400 FPS. I know that when I shot IHMSA guys shooting Federal factory Ammo was hotter than my reloads with 22 grains of 2400. Are those figures you are quoting from the factory ballistics or are they ACTUALLY fired from your gun? If I would have shot ammo that was that weak I sure would have pasted the results somewhere they would have been easy to find. Its funny that the 1180 figure is from some websites on the 240 gr ammo.
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Once again those velocities were chronographed in my model 29 6” barrel. Jeez
Yes they were posted in 2008. I know they were posted on accurate reloading in the handgun forum you are free to look them up
Last edited by jwp475; 01/19/19.
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
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Once again those velocities were chronographed in my model 29 6” barrel. Jeez
Yes they were posted in 2008. I know they were posted on accurate reloading in the handgun forum you are free to look them up
Are you going from memory or are you absolutely postively sure with no doubt about the velocities? There is no way you are quoting factory posted velocities from some of the factories.?
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Trump being classless,tasteless and clueless as usual. Sorry, trump is a no tax payin pile of shiit. My young wife decided to play the field and had moved several dudes into my house
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Once again those velocities were chronographed in my model 29 6” barrel. Jeez
Yes they were posted in 2008. I know they were posted on accurate reloading in the handgun forum you are free to look them up
Are you going from memory or are you absolutely postively sure with no doubt about the velocities? There is no way you are quoting factory posted velocities from some of the factories.? I’m done with your obtuse BS.
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
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JWP, just ignore this properly named troll............Doofus!
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Once again those velocities were chronographed in my model 29 6” barrel. Jeez
Yes they were posted in 2008. I know they were posted on accurate reloading in the handgun forum you are free to look them up
Are you going from memory or are you absolutely postively sure with no doubt about the velocities? There is no way you are quoting factory posted velocities from some of the factories.? I’m done with your obtuse BS. Yes i have all weekend all next week. But where is that elusive data?
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Properly named........Doofus! Just ignore this troll! You are right. But still the question wasnt answered. Just politicianed around.
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For crying out loud, stfu doofus! Damn, its like arguing with a 15 year old know it all punk kid.
Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats.
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For crying out loud, stfu doofus! Damn, its like arguing with a 15 year old know it all punk kid. Thank you for the compliment. While I dont aspire ro be like the little gods on this site there is maybe two and a half things I know. I am fairly ignorant and have worn the mantle proudly.
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Are you declaring a declaration?
Trump being classless,tasteless and clueless as usual. Sorry, trump is a no tax payin pile of shiit. My young wife decided to play the field and had moved several dudes into my house
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It is a miracle. An absolute miracle.
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RoninPhx,
Since you asked about the 429421, I'd stay at or BELOW current loading specs.
Don't ask me about my military service or heroic acts...most of it is untrue.
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The only thing this proves is Mag Tech and Fiochi is slow. What about the Remington?
Last edited by glockdoofus; 01/22/19.
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The Remingto was early 70’s loads
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
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The Remingto was early 70’s loads
Clock some of the 2019 loads and see what they do. There are Winchester, Federal, Speer etc.. You are the one that made the statement and declaration that was declaring.
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???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
Last edited by glockdoofus; 01/25/19.
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No need to stress things...unless you are making just bear loads ...I shoot my 44 with cast bullets and and limit them to 1200.. They shoot fantastic accuracy and I never figured to need that much power to punch a hole in paper or soda cans.
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Wasn't the .44 Magnum max pressure 44,000 CUP until the late 80s or sometime in the 90s? That would be the difference.
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Wasn't the .44 Magnum max pressure 44,000 CUP until the late 80s or sometime in the 90s? That would be the difference.
right now its 36000psi,
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Wasn't the .44 Magnum max pressure 44,000 CUP until the late 80s or sometime in the 90s? That would be the difference.
right now its 36000psi, Or 40,000CUP if tested on a copper crusher pressure gun.
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Still doing some more digging, but found this: ![[Linked Image]](http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f196/MarkoR/Pearce20article.jpg) Brian Pearce claims the original SAAMI maximum was 43,500 CUP (down to 40,000 now). It makes sense. Here is a link to the issue containing the article: https://www.riflemagazine.com/magazine/PDF/HL%20241%20Partial%20(LO)%202.pdf
Last edited by Whitworth1; 02/01/19.
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Still doing some more digging, but found this: Brian Pearce claims the original SAAMI maximum was 43,500 CUP (down to 40,000 now). It makes sense. Here is a link to the issue containing the article: https://www.riflemagazine.com/magazine/PDF/HL%20241%20Partial%20(LO)%202.pdf It seems you are trying to make a point that wasn't questioned in the first place. 1. Where did Pearce get his info? 2. Did he talk with the ballisticians at Remington where the archives concerning their loading of the 44 Mag was recorded. I am sure they have some. 3. Who said the pressure hasn't been reduced? 4. If the MAP was 43500CUP that is only an 8 percent reduction. 5. An 8 percent reduction STILL would not account for the tremendous reduction in velocity as declared in some declarations made my some declaring individuals on here. Maybe a 4 or 5 percent reduction at MOST. 6. MPSM is 43200CUP still. But MAP is still 40,000CUP. 7. 40,000CUP is still 36,000PSI depending on the pressure gun type as used by the ballistic lab. Some like to do like a pigeon does as it releases it bowels as it does a fly over.
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No, we spent a great deal of bandwidth "discussing" whether the .44 Magnum's SAAMI specifications changed over the years. This is one citation claiming it has. Nothing more, nothing less. As far as Brian Pearce's due diligence is concerned, I can't help you. I do know he is serious about what he does and careful about what he publishes. You might want to take it up with him.
Just sharing what I found...
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No, we spent a great deal of bandwidth "discussing" whether the .44 Magnum's SAAMI specifications changed over the years. This is one citation claiming it has. Nothing more, nothing less. As far as Brian Pearce's due diligence is concerned, I can't help you. I do know he is serious about what he does and careful about what he publishes. You might want to take it up with him.
Just sharing what I found... Is he posting on this forum? Just wondering where he got his information. You as a known person in the shooting industry should have no problem solving this. Did he list his sources? It would have been a great informational thing if he did. May be he will join the forum and expound on this subject. Maybe he could explain the velocity losses people claim in just losing 8 percent pressure. I am just wondering because I am curious.
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Also from Brian’s article
“The original Remington factory load contained a 240-grain gas check
swaged lead bullet of semiwadcutter (SWC) de- sign. Advertised velocities were 1,570 fps from a 6-inch bar- rel, but real world velocities from production revolvers usually ran around 1,450 fps. The gas check prevented leading in most guns, but there were occasional revolvers that suffered from barrel leading. Within a few years, Win- chester began offering a factory load driving a 240-grain bullet over 1,600 fps from production revolvers (although advertised at 1,650 fps). As a result Remington increased the pressure of its load. Frankly, both were exces- sive for all .44s of that period, and pressures and velocities were soon reduced.”
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
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Also from Brian’s article
“The original Remington factory load contained a 240-grain gas check
swaged lead bullet of semiwadcutter (SWC) de- sign. Advertised velocities were 1,570 fps from a 6-inch bar- rel, but real world velocities from production revolvers usually ran around 1,450 fps. The gas check prevented leading in most guns, but there were occasional revolvers that suffered from barrel leading. Within a few years, Win- chester began offering a factory load driving a 240-grain bullet over 1,600 fps from production revolvers (although advertised at 1,650 fps). As a result Remington increased the pressure of its load. Frankly, both were exces- sive for all .44s of that period, and pressures and velocities were soon reduced.”
Again where did he get his info? Again who said it had not been reduced?
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Campfire Kahuna
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Also from Brian’s article
“The original Remington factory load contained a 240-grain gas check
swaged lead bullet of semiwadcutter (SWC) de- sign. Advertised velocities were 1,570 fps from a 6-inch bar- rel, but real world velocities from production revolvers usually ran around 1,450 fps. The gas check prevented leading in most guns, but there were occasional revolvers that suffered from barrel leading. Within a few years, Win- chester began offering a factory load driving a 240-grain bullet over 1,600 fps from production revolvers (although advertised at 1,650 fps). As a result Remington increased the pressure of its load. Frankly, both were exces- sive for all .44s of that period, and pressures and velocities were soon reduced.”
Again where did he get his info? Again who said it had not been reduced? I have no idea about Pearce's info. Just guessing but I suspect the "velocity loss" can be accounted for by real world changes in pressure standards, combined with old velocities being partially inflated fantasies of the manufacturers along with pressure barrels utilized as opposed to real guns.
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Brian bought a case of the vintage ammo some years ago along with an early M29 to demonstrate the infamous 600 yard Elmer Keith shot. The story appeared in Handloader.
Conduct is the best proof of character.
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Brian bought a case of the vintage ammo some years ago along with an early M29 to demonstrate the infamous 600 yard Elmer Keith shot. The story appeared in Handloader. No one doubts what the article says. It says what it says. It is in print. We can see that. BUT, where did he get his information? If he had a case of vintage ammo did he have any pressure tested?
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No, we spent a great deal of bandwidth "discussing" whether the .44 Magnum's SAAMI specifications changed over the years. This is one citation claiming it has. Nothing more, nothing less. As far as Brian Pearce's due diligence is concerned, I can't help you. I do know he is serious about what he does and careful about what he publishes. You might want to take it up with him.
Just sharing what I found... Is he posting on this forum? Just wondering where he got his information. You as a known person in the shooting industry should have no problem solving this. Did he list his sources? It would have been a great informational thing if he did. May be he will join the forum and expound on this subject. Maybe he could explain the velocity losses people claim in just losing 8 percent pressure. I am just wondering because I am curious. No, Brian does not post on this forum. And threads like this make it painfully obvious why he has and continues to avoid such interaction. But if you have any real questions for Brian, go ahead and post a letter here, along with an actual return address. I will print your letter to paper and drop it in the mail to Brian. He can decide if you are worthy of sending an answer to. But I will not divulge Brian's address.
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No, we spent a great deal of bandwidth "discussing" whether the .44 Magnum's SAAMI specifications changed over the years. This is one citation claiming it has. Nothing more, nothing less. As far as Brian Pearce's due diligence is concerned, I can't help you. I do know he is serious about what he does and careful about what he publishes. You might want to take it up with him.
Just sharing what I found... Is he posting on this forum? Just wondering where he got his information. You as a known person in the shooting industry should have no problem solving this. Did he list his sources? It would have been a great informational thing if he did. May be he will join the forum and expound on this subject. Maybe he could explain the velocity losses people claim in just losing 8 percent pressure. I am just wondering because I am curious. No, Brian does not post on this forum. And threads like this make it painfully obvious why he has and continues to avoid such interaction. But if you have any real questions for Brian, go ahead and post a letter here, along with an actual return address. I will print your letter to paper and drop it in the mail to Brian. He can decide if you are worthy of sending an answer to. But I will not divulge Brian's address. I couldnt care less. He isnt interested in posting resources if he were he would have. If he had pressure tested some of the vintage ammo he would have posted it. It would have made the article more interesting plus more insightful. Elmer Keith never hid direct access to himself. Even his phone number. Of course he wasnt as popular as some of the writers are today. That was a joke in case someone doesnt know. Now what else is there to post about? Oh yes, his information sources. Divulging those would not have put a strain on him and his privacy.
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I really don't like trash being talked about brian pearce. He is a good one, and i trust what he writes completely. through the years a few times i have needed to contact him, and he responded.
I also know where one of the original moulds ended up for a magnum caliber, given to pearce by Dr Howell. He thought a lot of him too.
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i wish i could delete this thread. I reread pearce's article and some of the other stuff, and i think 22grains of the new 2400 wouldn't blow up some of my guns like a super redhawk.
but on the other hand no sense in beating them to death, and 20grains does sound about right to me. also given that loading almost all the major handgun calibers rarely if ever have i pushed any of them to the max.
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I really don't like trash being talked about brian pearce. He is a good one, and i trust what he writes completely. through the years a few times i have needed to contact him, and he responded.
I also know where one of the original moulds ended up for a magnum caliber, given to pearce by Dr Howell. He thought a lot of him too.
Who said anything negative about him. I dont even know bim. Is this some insinuation that anyone said anything negative?
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Where did Pearce get his info that SAAMI reduced the CUP pressure? I dunno, SAAMI, perhaps?
March 1969 GunNotes:
"Each year I receive a number of inquiries about velocities of various magnum sixgun loads when fired from different barrel lengths. A lot of accurate and some inaccurate information has been published in the past. Some factory loads we have tested were far too heavy for any sixgun. Continued use of these would ruin the gun in a short time.
One box of factory 44 Magnum ammo my friend Dr. Nippe sent to White Laboratory carried 21.32 grains of factory powder and a 239.25 grain bullet. This load averaged 1,608 fps. velocity from an 8 3/8 inch Smith and Wesson and pressures averaged 41,000 psi.."
March 1973 Gun Notes:
"Later, the small arms technical people (Remington) increased the velocity specs and also went to jacketed bullets, greatly increasing both pressures and velocities. Dr. Nippe sent a box of these loads to White's Laboratory and they varied 11,600 psi in just ten rounds and some loads went to nearly 50,000 psi........They are nowhere near as heavy in pressures as some as our commercial makes put out for some years (regarding Norma ammo).....I have not tried any late issue Winchester-Western, but for a time both makes were far overloaded to my notion (R-P/W-W) ."
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Where did Pearce get his info that SAAMI reduced the CUP pressure? I dunno, SAAMI, perhaps?
March 1969 GunNotes:
"Each year I receive a number of inquiries about velocities of various magnum sixgun loads when fired from different barrel lengths. A lot of accurate and some inaccurate information has been published in the past. Some factory loads we have tested were far too heavy for any sixgun. Continued use of these would ruin the gun in a short time.
One box of factory 44 Magnum ammo my friend Dr. Nippe sent to White Laboratory carried 21.32 grains of factory powder and a 239.25 grain bullet. This load averaged 1,608 fps. velocity from an 8 3/8 inch Smith and Wesson and pressures averaged 41,000 psi.."
March 1973 Gun Notes:
"Later, the small arms technical people (Remington) increased the velocity specs and also went to jacketed bullets, greatly increasing both pressures and velocities. Dr. Nippe sent a box of these loads to White's Laboratory and they varied 11,600 psi in just ten rounds and some loads went to nearly 50,000 psi........They are nowhere near as heavy in pressures as some as our commercial makes put out for some years (regarding Norma ammo).....I have not tried any late issue Winchester-Western, but for a time both makes were far overloaded to my notion (R-P/W-W) ." Again WHO SAID THE LOADS HAVENT BEEN REDUCED.? Again WHO SAID THE LOADS HAVENT BEEN REDUCED? Again WHO SAID THE LOADS HAVENT BEEN REDUCED? Again READ WHAT I HAVE POSTED.
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Also many used PSI as to pressure in the CUP days but it was CUP in those days. 41.000CUP not PSI.
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Brian bought a case of the vintage ammo some years ago along with an early M29 to demonstrate the infamous 600 yard Elmer Keith shot. The story appeared in Handloader. No one doubts what the article says. It says what it says. It is in print. We can see that. BUT, where did he get his information? If he had a case of vintage ammo did he have any pressure tested? I'd imagine he did, since he has bothered pressure testing, in a lab, 2400 powder from old stocks of the 60s and 70's to recent manufactured 2400 regarding loads in 38-44, 357, 41 Magnum, 44 Special and 44 Magnum. It's not like his recommended load reductions were half-assed guesses; but then again, many have actually read his information....
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Brian bought a case of the vintage ammo some years ago along with an early M29 to demonstrate the infamous 600 yard Elmer Keith shot. The story appeared in Handloader. No one doubts what the article says. It says what it says. It is in print. We can see that. BUT, where did he get his information? If he had a case of vintage ammo did he have any pressure tested? I'd imagine he did, since he has bothered pressure testing, in a lab, 2400 powder from old stocks of the 60s and 70's to recent manufactured 2400 regarding loads in 38-44, 357, 41 Magnum, 44 Special and 44 Magnum. It's not like his recommended load reductions were half-assed guesses; but then again, many have actually read his information.... What about the statistical differences between lots of the powder? Differences of the primers then and now if any? Differences in the accuracy of the testing equipment then and now?
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Where have these revelations been made manifest? Do we know if the ammo companies had their feces together concerning the loading of the 44 Mag over say a few years?
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I'm just an observer.
What you have been rambling on about is that you apparently know more about the subject than either Elmer Keith or Brian Pearce.
If you do, please post the alteriors you have regarding the subject, we'd all like to have information that isn't false.....
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I'm just an observer.
What you have been rambling on about is that you apparently know more about the subject than either Elmer Keith or Brian Pearce.
If you do, please post the alteriors you have regarding the subject, we'd all like to have information that isn't false.....
You are mistaken. I have never make a declaration in a declaring way. Others have. All I ask for is some reasonably factual information. Anyone can write anything. That doesnt make it true or untrue. I have never said anything is untrue. Neither have I said it is true. I havent said pressure has been reduced Raised or remained the same. That wasnt my original statement in the first place.
Last edited by glockdoofus; 02/01/19.
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Elmer Keith and Brian Pearce have reasonably posted their information regarding the subject.
The 1983 NRA handloading guide gives a CUP pressure establishment of 43,500 CUP. Most modern manuals still using CUP limit it at 40,000.
If you don't think their information is based on facts or are lies, or know otherwise, speak up to the contrary. It might make history....
It might also bother you that the 357 Magnum, the 221 FireBall and other cartridges have been loaded up and down over the years, with very few, other than the contrarian, argumentative types to cry bullshit and tone down their rancor when real people corroborate it.
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Elmer Keith and Brian Pearce have reasonably posted their information regarding the subject.
The 1983 NRA handloading guide gives a CUP pressure establishment of 43,500 CUP. Most modern manuals still using CUP limit it at 40,000.
If you don't think their information is based on facts or are lies, or know otherwise, speak up to the contrary. It might make history....
It might also bother you that the 357 Magnum, the 221 FireBall and other cartridges have been loaded up and down over the years, with very few, other than the contrarian, argumentative types to cry bullshit and tone down their rancor when real people corroborate it. Evidentally you cant read or dont want to read. I NEVER SAID THE PRESSURE HAS BEEN REDUCED, RAISED OR HAS REMAINED THE SAME. Can you not get it in your head? I NEVER SAID THAT. WHERE DID YOU GET THAT. Please tell me where I said these things. I never said anything about pressure up down sideways or over, under around and through.
Last edited by glockdoofus; 02/01/19.
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I read just fine. You haven't stated obvious [bleep], other than being an argumentative [bleep].
You're the politician "politicianing around"....hey, WHERE DID I GET THAT?
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'a declaration in a declaring way."
Sweet jesus, WHERE DID I GET THAT!
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'a declaration in a declaring way."
Sweet jesus, WHERE DID I GET THAT! Tell me where I said the pressure wasnt lowered' was raised or remaind the same. You in your declaring declaration in a pontificating insinuating, indicating blowviating way seem to think I have. You in your declarations have tried to turn the tables but it wont work. Show me where I made any statement on whether the pressure has went any way. Just a simple question. Please show me where.
Last edited by glockdoofus; 02/01/19.
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SAAMI specs on the 44 Magnum is STILL 40,000 CUP or 36,000 PSI depending on the type of pressure gun. PERIOD. You've been ragging on everyone's ass since page one. PERIOD.
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SAAMI specs on the 44 Magnum is STILL 40,000 CUP or 36,000 PSI depending on the type of pressure gun. PERIOD. You've been ragging on everyone's ass since page one. PERIOD. That first post has nothing to do with the direction of the pressures up, down or sideways. Please read if you can. Where did I say the pressure wasnt lowered, raised or has remained the same? Can you show me? All I did was ask for some resources as to where each pontificator got their information. Surely someone would have resources from either the factories or SAAMI themselves. Where are the actual resources? Informational resources that is.
Last edited by glockdoofus; 02/01/19.
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Maroonal sources like yourself?
Plenty posted. The NRA, HP White, you want Lyman?
You just want to [bleep] argue...PERIOD.
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Maroonal sources like yourself?
Plenty posted. The NRA, HP White, you want Lyman?
You just want to [bleep] argue...PERIOD. Show the resources. Telling you have them is simple. I can say I am the King of England. That doesnt mean I am. Now where are the resources in printed form on a site.
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They're called books.
Where are they?
Everywhere.
PERIOD!
You need any more advice, primary would be not being an argumentative douchebag, but I know you can't help yourself.
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Maroonal sources like yourself?
Plenty posted. The NRA, HP White, you want Lyman?
You just want to [bleep] argue...PERIOD. Show the resources. Telling you have them is simple. I can say I am the King of England. That doesnt mean I am. Now where are the resources in printed form on a site. You’re barking up the wrong tree.
If you put Taco Bell sauce in your ramen noodles it tastes just like poverty
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The tree still hasnt given up its informational fruit. It is hanging withered upon the limb.
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The tree still hasnt given up its informational fruit. It is hanging withered upon the limb. You look like a lazy, argumentative fuuck to me. If you want information, go find it. It's not our job to give you sources, data. It's not our job to interact with ass holes on the campfire, either. You should get out of your mom's basement more, man. Your social skills are....lacking.
I belong on eroding granite, among the pines.
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By the way, I have the dregs of an 8lb can of Hercules 2400, and identical loads with a very recent lot of 2400 give identical velocity in a few handgun loads and several rifle loads, including pressures from <20k PSI to >50K PSI. I could not distinguish between the two powders, even in accuracy. Pretty cool. About 40 years difference in manufacture.
I belong on eroding granite, among the pines.
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The tree still hasnt given up its informational fruit. It is hanging withered upon the limb. You look like a lazy, argumentative fuuck to me. If you want information, go find it. It's not our job to give you sources, data. It's not our job to interact with ass holes on the campfire, either. You should get out of your mom's basement more, man. Your social skills are....lacking. Thank you for your accolades. Any time I get a complinent I am happy. No, i never said pressures were moved either way. It was started by someone else and I invited them to show where there were factual evidence they were. The ball was put in their court by their declaring bloviating declarations. If I had made a statement the pressures had gone either way or stayed the same I would have at least offered some information that would at least resemble factual. The least the declarator could do. Have a good evening.
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Between the potifacation, the misspellings, and the general misuse of language, you have the doofus part down pat.
An unemployed Jester, is nobody's Fool.
the only real difference between a good tracker and a bad tracker, is observation. all the same data is present for both. The rest, is understanding what you're seeing.
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Can we re-title this ruined thread?
I am MAGA.
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Between the potifacation, the misspellings, and the general misuse of language, you have the doofus part down pat. Again thank you for the instrucsnal instrucuale words. With all mi mistpellings and mistuse of the anglesh linguage mi are sorrie fur hit.
I AM THE GOOD FRIEND OF RENEGADE50.
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Between the potifacation, the misspellings, and the general misuse of language, you have the doofus part down pat. Again thank you for the instrucsnal instrucuale words. With all mi mistpellings and mistuse of the anglesh linguage mi are sorrie fur hit. Doofus, don't bother with PMs unless you actually have something useful to say. Such games are boring.
An unemployed Jester, is nobody's Fool.
the only real difference between a good tracker and a bad tracker, is observation. all the same data is present for both. The rest, is understanding what you're seeing.
~Molɔ̀ːn Labé Skýla~
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[quote=kellory]Between the potifacation, the misspellings, and the general misuse of language, you have the doofus part down pat. Again thank you for the instrucsnal instrucuale words. With all mi mistpellings and mistuse of the anglesh linguage mi are sorrie fur hit. Doofus, don't bother with PMs unless you actually have something useful to say. Such games are boring.[/quote Just wanted to thank you for you concern. Thank you, thank you, thank you and thank you again and again and again and again. Still no information from the factories or SAAMI on the pressurefication on said directional direction of said pressure directional direction.
Last edited by glockdoofus; 02/08/19.
I AM THE GOOD FRIEND OF RENEGADE50.
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I didn't realize Porky Pig had a sock puppet on the fire. https://youtu.be/lBkUz6cQnPYWho knew?
An unemployed Jester, is nobody's Fool.
the only real difference between a good tracker and a bad tracker, is observation. all the same data is present for both. The rest, is understanding what you're seeing.
~Molɔ̀ːn Labé Skýla~
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Can we re-title this ruined thread?
Good point, Jim...the question posed by the OP was most likely answered in the first page of responses.
Don't ask me about my military service or heroic acts...most of it is untrue.
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I like that. I believe I will include in my posts. Thanks for the link.
Last edited by glockdoofus; 02/08/19.
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Can we re-title this ruined thread?
Good point, Jim...the question posed by the OP was most likely answered in the first page of responses. What would be good is for the ones in the know to post loads we can use to duplicate the aforementioned atomic loads that were used back then in the factory loads of yore. I have Hornady, Nosler and Sierra 240 gr bullets as well as the "KEITH" bullets. I will be using the HOT Remington 2 1/2 Magnum primer. We can have a "Loads of Yore" list. https://youtu.be/lBkUz6cQnPY
Last edited by glockdoofus; 02/08/19.
I AM THE GOOD FRIEND OF RENEGADE50.
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HE PUNISHES ME WHEN I AM WRONG.
HE CALLS ME OUT WHEN I AM LYING.
HE CARES GREATLY ABOUT ME.
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Don't ask me about my military service or heroic acts...most of it is untrue.
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Thank you. I guess that was a request that was too requestfulness
Last edited by glockdoofus; 02/09/19.
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HE CARES GREATLY ABOUT ME.
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I was just hoping someone was just going to post a good load for joint use between Ruger Blackhawk Revolver and Marlin carbine that would not be a wrist nor stock breaker but would put down a black bear or muslim if need be. I'd think that could be a happening if guys like Big Jim or Flave ran this place and keep doofus da he11 out o here.
Jus say', W. Bill
I'd rather die in a BAD gunfight than a GOOD nursing home.
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Pretty sure **everyone** who handloads for .44 magnum 429421 already knows what that load...is.
Don't ask me about my military service or heroic acts...most of it is untrue.
Pronoun: Yes, SIR !
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Pretty sure **everyone** who handloads for .44 magnum 429421already knows what that load...is.
Thank you and may the Bird of Paradise fly up your nose
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I was just hoping someone was just going to post a good load for joint use between Ruger Blackhawk Revolver and Marlin carbine that would not be a wrist nor stock breaker but would put down a black bear or muslim if need be. I'd think that could be a happening if guys like Big Jim or Flave ran this place and keep doofus da he11 out o here.
Jus say', W. Bill Rem-6MM, here you go, this is good for me in my Ruger Redhawk and Marlin 1894 Cowboy. 17.5 grains of 2400 and 240 grain cast RNFP. Gets 1204 fps out of the Redhawk and 1554 fps from the Marlin. Kills whitetails very decisively, and is very pleasant to shoot. I also shoot those same 240s and a batch of Keith style that weigh 260gr. with 18.5 grains of 2400 from those same two guns. (just haven't run them over the chronograph.} I would not hesitate to shoot any game we have here in MT with the either one of those loads.
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I always used 22 grains of 2400, that seemed to give me the best accuracy. For a plinking load with cast bullets I used 14 grains.
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Viking, what bullet are you shooting, and do you know what kinda speed you are getting?
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I want one of those "blow the doors off" loads of the early days of the 44 Mag. One that when it is fired, it forms such a vacuum when the bullet comes out of the muzzle at warp speed it almost jerks ones clothes off.
I AM THE GOOD FRIEND OF RENEGADE50.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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The tree still hasnt given up its informational fruit. It is hanging withered upon the limb. You look like a lazy, argumentative fuuck to me. If you want information, go find it. It's not our job to give you sources, data. It's not our job to interact with ass holes on the campfire, either. You should get out of your mom's basement more, man. Your social skills are....lacking. Appears his favorite part of being on the board is arguing. He doesn't ask for infomation. He requires it. But, don't ask him for any. He'll send you packing. This is not news to those who have shot handguns a lot. Super. Could you put me in touch with one of those folks so they could explain it to me? I am sure you have people where you live that are schooled in variation of impact due to different ammo. Just think now you are one of the enlightened ones. Go forth and teach. One to another so others may be enlightened. And why did you come to this board, again?
Slaves get what they need. Free men get what they want. Rehabilitation is way overrated. Orwell wasn't wrong. GOA member disappointed NRA member 24HCF SEARCH
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The tree still hasnt given up its informational fruit. It is hanging withered upon the limb. You look like a lazy, argumentative fuuck to me. If you want information, go find it. It's not our job to give you sources, data. It's not our job to interact with ass holes on the campfire, either. You should get out of your mom's basement more, man. Your social skills are....lacking. Appears his favorite part of being on the board is arguing. He doesn't ask for infomation. He requires it. But, don't ask him for any. He'll send you packing. This is not news to those who have shot handguns a lot. Super. Could you put me in touch with one of those folks so they could explain it to me? I am sure you have people where you live that are schooled in variation of impact due to different ammo. Just think now you are one of the enlightened ones. Go forth and teach. One to another so others may be enlightened. And why did you come to this board, again? Hello how are are you this fine day?
Last edited by glockdoofus; 02/10/19.
I AM THE GOOD FRIEND OF RENEGADE50.
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Campfire Ranger
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if i had a lick of sense i would let this thing go away. but i thought i would pass along what originally got me to post.
keeping in mind i was wondering about 22grains of 2400 behind a 240grain bullet in 44magnum.
Hornady
7th edition
max load 21.2 grains
in a thomson/contender 22.8 grains
in a rifle 21.5 grains
going back to my lyman 3dr edition cast bullet handbook,circa 1980
max is 23.4 behind a 429421 cast bullet.
times have changed.
i am still trying to find out why that thompson contender has that load as opposed to running it in a super redhawk.
and yes, i do understand the difference between a jacketed bullet and lead.
Last edited by RoninPhx; 02/16/19.
THE BIRTH PLACE OF GERONIMO
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if i had a lick of sense i would let this thing go away. but i thought i would pass along what originally got me to post.
keeping in mind i was wondering about 22grains of 2400 behind a 240grain bullet in 44magnum.
Hornady
7th edition
max load 21.2 grains
in a thomson/contender 22.8 grains
in a rifle 21.5 grains
going back to my lyman 3dr edition cast bullet handbook,circa 1980
max is 23.4 behind a 429421 cast bullet.
times have changed.
i am still trying to find out why that thompson contender has that load as opposed to running it in a super redhawk.
and yes, i do understand the difference between a jacketed bullet and lead. What we need is some of the guys that know the inner workingness of the loading companies of the 60's to the 70's to come on here with their knowlegement and wiseness and elaborate on the magical loads for the 44 Magnum.
I AM THE GOOD FRIEND OF RENEGADE50.
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Could you just get a 60-70s load book and shut up ?
All you are doing is stirring drama .
Rabid Creedmoorians ring my doorbell ...
as I open it a crack they speak :
"Do you have a moment to talk about our Lord and Savior , 6.5Creed?"
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Could you just get a 60-70s load book and shut up ?
All you are doing is stirring drama . I have two Lyman 1970 reloading manuals here. I want the 1960 reloading data or around that date so as to have a real 44 Magnum load not these creampuff loads that are published now. I dont want these cowboy loads all of the manual list now. The loads where one would have to duct tape the gun to ones hand so it can be held onto. One where when it goes off a mushroom cloud with a whirling high speed muzzle blast that is laying the grass flat while shaking the ground.
I AM THE GOOD FRIEND OF RENEGADE50.
HE MENTORS ME.
HE PUNISHES ME WHEN I AM WRONG.
HE CALLS ME OUT WHEN I AM LYING.
HE CARES GREATLY ABOUT ME.
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Campfire Ranger
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Viking, what bullet are you shooting, and do you know what kinda speed you are getting?
I purdy much use the 240 XTP and 22 grains of the 2400. The hard cast that I have are around 250 grains. I half no idea who made them. But again, I used 22/2400 and a for the plinking load I used 14/2400. If that helps you.
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When I get some of the load date for the real loads I am going to get one of the self darkening welding helmets to prevent being blinded by the flash.
I AM THE GOOD FRIEND OF RENEGADE50.
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Campfire Ranger
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The load data I used was out of an old Hornady book.
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Campfire Ranger
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I was just hoping someone was just going to post a good load for joint use between Ruger Blackhawk Revolver and Marlin carbine that would not be a wrist nor stock breaker but would put down a black bear or muslim if need be. I'd think that could be a happening if guys like Big Jim or Flave ran this place and keep doofus da he11 out o here.
Jus say', W. Bill i have a number of .44magnum handguns between superredhawk, contender, and smith's. i also have a marlin 44magnum. Interesting enough while the handguns measure at .429, the rifle if i remember right is at .431 or .432. My original quest was to find a load that worked equally well in handgun and rifle. And with lead there is the issue of the kind of rifling in the barrel of the rifle.
THE BIRTH PLACE OF GERONIMO
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Campfire Kahuna
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I was just hoping someone was just going to post a good load for joint use between Ruger Blackhawk Revolver and Marlin carbine that would not be a wrist nor stock breaker but would put down a black bear or muslim if need be. I'd think that could be a happening if guys like Big Jim or Flave ran this place and keep doofus da he11 out o here.
Jus say', W. Bill i have a number of .44magnum handguns between superredhawk, contender, and smith's. i also have a marlin 44magnum. Interesting enough while the handguns measure at .429, the rifle if i remember right is at .431 or .432. My original quest was to find a load that worked equally well in handgun and rifle. And with lead there is the issue of the kind of rifling in the barrel of the rifle. Wasn't the 265 grain Hornady, the daddy of the "heavier" bullets in .44 Mag., .430 whereas most of the others measured .001 or .002" less? Seems like it was developed specifically for the carbines, like the Marlin1894.
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Campfire Ranger
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I was just hoping someone was just going to post a good load for joint use between Ruger Blackhawk Revolver and Marlin carbine that would not be a wrist nor stock breaker but would put down a black bear or muslim if need be. I'd think that could be a happening if guys like Big Jim or Flave ran this place and keep doofus da he11 out o here.
Jus say', W. Bill i have a number of .44magnum handguns between superredhawk, contender, and smith's. i also have a marlin 44magnum. Interesting enough while the handguns measure at .429, the rifle if i remember right is at .431 or .432. My original quest was to find a load that worked equally well in handgun and rifle. And with lead there is the issue of the kind of rifling in the barrel of the rifle. Wasn't the 265 grain Hornady, the daddy of the "heavier" bullets in .44 Mag., .430 whereas most of the others measured .001 or .002" less? Seems like it was developed specifically for the carbines, like the Marlin1894. that could be, i know ken watters in "pet loads" mentioned going not past that weight wise. interesting enough, he had two sections on 44magnum, in the first section pet load was 22grains of 2400. second section he reduced it to 21grains saying it shot just as well or better. given the time he wrote that it would have been hercules not that in reality it makes any difference. i would have to look at again, but seems some of the heavier bullets had trouble cycling in the ruger semiauto carbine. one other tidbit not related to anything, when i bought the marlin rifle, i got a box of 20rounds of i thought factory ammo. I ran it through a chrony. those 240grain bullets were doing over 1800fps. That beats the velocity and weight of a 38.55.
Last edited by RoninPhx; 02/18/19.
THE BIRTH PLACE OF GERONIMO
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I believe I seen where todays 44 Magnum loads has ben reduceded. Is that correctum?
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*** You are ignoring this user ***
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Fixt it.
"...the designer of the .270 Ingwe cartridge!..."
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Wasn't the 265 grain Hornady, the daddy of the "heavier" bullets in .44 Mag., .430 whereas most of the others measured .001 or .002" less? Seems like it was developed specifically for the carbines, like the Marlin1894.
My understanding is that bullet was made primarily for the 444 Marlin with secondary use in the 44 Magnum. Most Hornady jacketed bullets run .430, whereas Speer and Sierra and Nosler are .429-.4295, regardless of weight.
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that could be, i know ken watters in "pet loads" mentioned going not past that weight wise. interesting enough, he had two sections on 44magnum, in the first section pet load was 22grains of 2400. second section he reduced it to 21grains saying it shot just as well or better.
given the time he wrote that it would have been hercules not that in reality it makes any difference.
i would have to look at again, but seems some of the heavier bullets had trouble cycling in the ruger semiauto carbine.
one other tidbit not related to anything, when i bought the marlin rifle, i got a box of 20rounds of i thought factory ammo. I ran it through a chrony. those 240grain bullets were doing over 1800fps. That beats the velocity and weight of a 38.55.
Ken Waters also never realized H110 and 296 were the same powder, often favoring one over the other and stating so, in several chamberings......
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It would be nice if someone would make a 300 grain bullet.
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I was just hoping someone was just going to post a good load for joint use between Ruger Blackhawk Revolver and Marlin carbine that would not be a wrist nor stock breaker but would put down a black bear or muslim if need be. I'd think that could be a happening if guys like Big Jim or Flave ran this place and keep doofus da he11 out o here.
Jus say', W. Bill Not a problem. The handgun is usually not the issue, it is finding a nice tight shooting load for the Marlin that often takes a little bit more homework. But it is not all that hard, and I will give you the "cheat Codes" as the gamers say these days. The majority of the Marlins that I have personally used ( I currently only have my 16" Trapper .44) have been pretty finicky about cast lead loads, however they do like jacketed. If you stick with a 240 grain Hornady XTP and 22 grains of H110 you will be completely good to go. That will take care of your needs in the handloads department. Speer makes a 270 grain Gold Dot soft point that shoots well out of Marlins, if you want factory ammo. I have not had great luck with heavy bullets, both in feeding and accuracy. I "can" make loads but they end up being levergun specific and I don't load that way, so I just stick with the 240 grain loads and am very satisfied.
THE CHAIR IS AGAINST THE WALL. The Tikka T3 in .308 Winchester is the Glock 19 of the rifle world. The website is up and running!www.lostriverammocompany.com
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Campfire Tracker
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I'm in the process of remodelling my reloading room so I can't get to my load manuals to give you my .44 mag loads but I'm anxious to compare notes.
Good to hear from you Sagebrush.
W. Bill
I'd rather die in a BAD gunfight than a GOOD nursing home.
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Campfire Ranger
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Marlins and Rugers are generally cohesive with .431 cast bullets.
My fav is the NOE replica of the H&G 503 265 Keith and 8.5 grs CFE Pistol.
For more serious work, the LBT 300 WLN GC and 18 grs. Lil'Gun ups the speed a bit and runs accurately out enough to 300 yards with irons on 8 inch plates with the Marlin.
I realize most don't have the cast bullet options; I too would lean towards the 270 Speer if one had to purchase a universal heavy for a rifle and handgun.
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Campfire Tracker
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I hadn't even considered 300 yards for my Marlin let alone 8" but like I mentioned earlier I plan on spending some range time this summer working on it.
I'd rather die in a BAD gunfight than a GOOD nursing home.
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Campfire Ranger
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i have sort of a soft spot for 44, as that is what got me into casting.
i had a super redhawk in 44, paid new a little over 300bucks for it so that tells how old it is.
ammo was out of sight price wise.
so i picked up casting to avoid the cost of ammunition.
I have since acquired other 44's, but most have seen little or any jacketed ammo.
I made a mistake on that box of 22grains of 2400 with 240gr jacketed bullets. I have all the specifics on the box, but forgot to write down the date i loaded it. I just know it was a long time ago, given it was buried in a ammo box i hadn't looked at for years.
i normally cast my own, but i did buy some real high brn count .431 bullets from i think it was montana gold to play with.
Trying to get around the larger diameter of the marlin rifle barrel.
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Do any of you have ANY confirmed loading data from the mid 1960's from any lab for the 44 Magnum cartridge or is it dreamed, imagined, congerated, word of moutherated and drug or drunken hallucinated?
Do you have any ACTUAL pressure tested data of factory loads of the mid 1960's period?
It would be so great to have this informational information to give us insightness to the minds of the ballistic genius of the ballisticians of the Golden Era of 44 Magnum load greatness.
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My original quest was to find a load that worked equally well in handgun and rifle. And with lead there is the issue of the kind of rifling in the barrel of the rifle.
Ronin, I've been using coated 240gr MIssouri Bullet LSWCs as my .44 Mag companion round. At 18 Brinell, they're on the harder side and since they're coated, they tend to act a little like a jacketed bullet, which (in my humble opinion) allows me to get a way with using them in the bigger SAAMI bore spec of the rifle. In my case, I found that the rifle shot a 1.25" ragged hole at 21yds (unbenched/unbraced) with anything that the revolver grouped at 1" or better at 7 yds. I experimented with HS-6, H110, 4227, Blue Dot, Universal and 2400. 20.3gr of 2400 gave me the best accuracy for a true magnum load. I haven't chrono'd the revolver yet, but the 20.3gr of 2400 load averaged 1751fps.through the 20" barrel of the rifle. I had a chance to mess with my brother's .44 Mag companion guns, as well and while his rifle isn't shooting as tight (brand new gun), I'm starting to believe, when trying to get a single companion load, it's better to identify 4 or 5 "best of" loads for the revolver and apply those to the rifle to find what works best. Just my 2 cents. Good luck!
Last edited by RayF; 02/22/19.
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