Home Forums Birds & Dogs Shotguns Looking for a Classy SxS

Been searching Gunbroker for a while looking for a nice older SxS shotgun or maybe a drilling. I can't afford a Merkel, Winchester 21, Parker. So I've been looking at Sauer and Fox.
After Looking though the threads in this subforum, I should add Webley and Simson to the list.

I've saw a couple nice, Charles Daly shotguns on Gunbroker. Now I'm young enough that the only Charles Dalys I can remember were cheap, like they came from sears. I assume the name was built on quality at some point or they wouldn't have kept the brand around. Am I right on this point?

Any other names I should be searching for in my quest for a deal?

Budget is around 1500, and I'ld like it to be shootable, 2 triggers, hammer or hammerless.

Any help for a heathen like me?

Thanks

AYA

👍

Or Urgarteccha

What guage?

The only $1500 AYAs I’ve seen have been the Matador, pretty cheap looking to me.

Cabelas had some lower end Merkels online in their gun library if anybody wants to comment on those?

Gauge doesn't really matter to me. 10,12,16,20... I wouldn't use a 28 or 410. Most guns I've seen in my price range seem to be 16, probably because of lack of readily available ammo.

With a $1500 budget it shouldn't be too hard to find a nice sxs.

I shoot a Bernardelli Elos 12ga at 5 lb 15 oz all steel and walnut around a $K now.



It is a down market for 2 trigger sxs's now, you should be able to find something nice.

You might want to look here.

http://www.757arms.com/c-4-sxs.aspx

I shoot a 1961 Beretta Silver Hawk and have had it since 1987.

You can get one for less than your budget.

https://www.gunbroker.com/item/795698076

This is the best thing going so far. Great gun for the money provided the price doesn't escalate fast at the end of the auction. I have a later one if I remember right mine is a 1969.

I just cant get behind a sxs with a beaver tail forend, I can live with a PG but prefer POW or straight grip.

Not fancy but my favorite waterfowl shotgun 1941 Husqvarna Mod 51, I have a pair of these, 2 1/2" 12ga 7/8 oz ITX 6's let the come in close.

I’ve nearly bought this Zoli-Rizzini 20 guage a few times. $1250. Seller has a good reputation over there.

http://uplandjournal.ipbhost.com/topic/68863-jan-15-prices-on-my-3-sxs/

Your link is blocked. But I have a 12-ga Zoli Rizzini sXs which is badged Abercrombie & Fitch. Very nice workmanship.

That zoli-rizzini is blocked for me too, I did try to register for the site though.

The beavertail forearm isn't a deal breaker for me, but I do prefer the regular forearm and a Straight or Prince of Wales grip.

As far as newer guns go, I hadn't thought of the Beretta's, and these SKB's look nice but I don't know anything about them.

https://www.gunbroker.com/item/794400451

And examples of the vintage Charles Daly I was referring to
https://www.gunbroker.com/item/796650258
https://www.gunbroker.com/item/796145002

I really like that bottom link, 10 gauge.

I missed 1 a couple days ago because I have a standing bid in on a drilling. I should have just "watched" the drilling instead of commiting 9 days before the end of the sale. My luck I would have won both playing that game.

P.S. Should I stay away from Damascus if I plan to shoot it? Need to stick to low brass lead... Probably could just google that.

Thanks guys.

I would stay away from Damascus barrels. Not that there aren't quality damascus barreled guns still out there. But unless you have someone that really knows how to inspect them and just really like the looks to me it isn't worth it.

If you have big hands like me, you will learn to love a beavertail forearm. No they aren't as pleasing to the eye but much more functional. Shoot driven birds and let me know how you like the splintered Forearm.

As for the wrist sure straight grip is faster handling, but a pistol gives you better control. There is a reason Trap, Skeet, Sporting clays, and Pigeon shooters all use a Pistol grip versus a straight grip.

As for a 10ga I don't see a viable reason to own one. Too many negatives for me anyways.

The Zoli-Rizzini isn't a bad gun at all. But so far from what I have seen posted here the best one going is the Beretta SilverHawk.

Just a little bit of a warning, "low brass lead" and "low pressure" are not synonymous. Modern low brass shells are loaded to top pressures to operate modern semi-autos. Feeding of a fine OLD sxs means low pressure shells to protect 50-100 year old wood. Companies like RST and Vintagers shells(Polywad) make good performing low pressure shells and there is plenty of load data for low pressure shot shell reloading. I miss the passing of B&P High Pheasant 2 1/2" factory loads.

Most of the pre-war Euro sxs's will have 2 1/2" chambers usually marked with the gauge and chamber length such as 12-65 for 2 1/2", 12-70 for 2 3/4" guns with out a chamber length will most likely be of the shorter length as they were built before 2 3/4 became available.

I grew up shooting a fine old 16ga Damascus sxs being young and dumb long before the internet and in some place even a telephone was a rarity. I shot factory 2 3/4" shell through it and is as loose as a goose today and is nothing but a wall hanger now.



Older SKB's are fine shotgun, I shot a pair of SKB 100's 12ga for waterfowl and a 20ga for upland. I sold them and went back to a two trigger gun.

I'm pretty partial to drillings and have the in 16ga/16ga/6.5x58R Sauer, 16ga/16ga/7x57R and 16ga/16ga/9.3x72R. I hunt coyotes with the 6.5 and big game with the 7x57R, still working up a load for the 9.3. The 9.3 and 6.5 have 65mm 2 1/2" 16ga chambers and the 7x57R is a post war Sauer with 70mm 2 3/4" chambers

I don’t know if you need to be a member or contributing member to see the adds there.

Here is the text from his original add (has since dropped price to $1250


Zoli-Rizzini 20ga, 26". Scalloped boxlock non-ejector. Semi-PG (or Prince of Wales)/splinter/double triggers. Abercrombie & Fitch import (this one made in 1963) when they were looking for a less expensive alternative to their higher priced European guns (like Francottes), and they chose these well-made Italian doubles. Chokes are IC/M (.006/.014). Weight: Just a hair over 6#. Dimensions: 14 1/4" to a 1 1/8" leather covered pad (by Wisconsin gun dealer/gunsmith Mark Beasland) x 1 5/8" x 2 5/8". Neutral cast. 3" chambers. Perfect bores. Excellent blue. Retains most case color, but with some tarnish on the receiver. Minor handling marks. Sharp checkering. $1550.

If anybody is interested, pm me and I’ll give you his email address for pictures.

I believe those newer SKB guns are made in Turkey. SKB has been bought/sold a few times over the years. The older Japanese guns are quite nice and are well regarded. No idea about the Turkish manufactured guns.

Watch Turnbull Restoration website. They occasionally have some listed in the used section that they have not refinished that are old classic shooters. Usually within your budget. SKB as mentioned above are outstanding shotguns. The field models are in the $800-$900 range.

Have a very nice Merkel model 8 in 12 gauge that I paid much less for. Also have a 20 Gauge Ugartechea from lion Country and a 12 Beretta 471 Silver Hawk.
Look up doubleshotguns.com and Upland Journal. Auction arms works also

There is a Browning BSS 20 ga for sale in the 'Fire classifieds at a reasonable price. I believe these were made by Miroku and have a very good reputation for quality. It has a straight English stock (which doesn't work for me) or I would have bought it myself. I suggest you take a look at it.

The seller is Phil99 and the asking price is $1495.

Well, I got outbid on the drilling and 1 of the SxS I was interested in is relisted because it didn't get a bid last time around. I'm watching a couple right now, but unless I stumble on a good deal i'm hoping to have 1 bought in about a week.
I was talking to a friends dad at the coffee shop the other day. Turns out he has a SKB SxS. Followed him back to his house and got to look it over and swing it around a bit. Liked it.

I looked at that BSS. Not really what i'm after, but thanks for the heads up.

Do you know if the SKB is a Turkish build or Japanese? Is it a 200E? If it is a Japanese built 200E 28 gauge, I would be interested in it if you decide not to buy it yourself.

BTW, while the Japanese built Ithaca 200's have a great rep, I would pass on a SKB 200 made in Turkey.

I bought a real nice model 8 about 7 years ago for $650. That's the direction I would be going even if I paid twice that,and that is definitely doable.

Don't buy anything until you look here. This guy goes to England twice a year just to buy affordable side by side shotguns. Everything he has is proof tested and measure for tolerances to make sure they are ready to be used and will last many years and thousands of rounds. British shotguns surpass all the other european side by sides in quality of build and still, they are lighter and much more pleasant to hunt and shoot.


http://www.hillrodandgun.com/picture.php?id=12906

This Webley was purchased for less than your budget limit you have...

Do you know if the SKB is a Turkish build or Japanese? Is it a 200E? If it is a Japanese built 200E 28 gauge, I would be interested in it if you decide not to buy it yourself.

BTW, while the Japanese built Ithaca 200's have a great rep, I would pass on a SKB 200 made in Turkey.
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It's a 1961 Japanese 12ga.

I'll take another look at Merkels, I've been ignoring them because It seemed like a cheap merkel was 2500.

I believe Shrapnel is getting younger or his pictures are going back in time. That shop looks like a good resource. The gun you linked is the best looking gun there in my price range, to my taste anyways.

Yes Hill Rod and Gun usually has a very nice inventory on hand as does CSMC, William Larkin Moore, and Robin Hollow

That Beretta Gardone sure could scratch that itch I have. Think a 690 Field 3 will have to do.

Thanks for the link... I think!

Last thing I need is another older SXS but cannot help myself when I see a nice one...

There's something we agree on.

Thanks for the info.. Just what I have been looking for..

Difficult to buy a shotgun sight unseen. As you all know, the shotgun must be a good physical fit when you mount it. it may be pretty and a good buy, but unless it is a good fit for you, the money will be wasted.

Or, one can get a gun and they like fitted to them. As all gun stocks are made to fit "the average man" odds are pretty good the stock of any given shotgun will not fit the shooter. The gun may be close enough for a given person to shoot well enough but it likely doesn't "fit" them.

This leads to the question, "Just how does a person know if a stock fits?" Unless the buyer already knows how a gun properly fitted to them should "feel", they are most likely to purchase a gun that "feels" like the last one even if every dimension was incorrect. People tend to buy what's familiar when their knowledge or experience is not to the level of telling them otherwise.

I recommend buying the gun one likes and then go shoot it for a while. Several hundred shells should get one enough rounds to determine if they can shoot the gun well enough. If not happy with the results, a trip to a qualified shooting instructor is next. An instructor should be able to determine if the gun fits close enough and, if so, what flaw(s) in your shooting need to be fixed to get the most from you and your equipment. If the gun fits poorly, a good instructor will be able to recognize the basic issues and might be able to make some gross changes to alleviate the problems. The instructor should also be able to suggest someone better able to help correct fitting problems.

If buying a gun to shoot, I look first at what pleases me or has the features I want. Fit is one of the last criteria. I've gone through the fitting process with enough guns to get a good idea of what needs to be done and how much it will cost. I factor cost into the price and then decide if fitting is viable or not. I've walked away from some otherwise good deals due to fitting cost. I've also made some pretty good buys as someone else jumped from gun to gun hoping to luck into a gun that "fit" them as it came from the factory. I keep in touch with a couple of these people, I get some pretty good offers on guns from them.

Woodmaster81 nailed it, guns aren't made to fit. They are an average that no person is.

The Eagle has Landed... In budget, nice wood and checkering, nice engraving, straight English stock and splinter forearm, 2-3/4 12gauge chambers.

It's not a name I recognize, but I'm happy with all the details. I'm glad it came along before I got impatient and bought something that wasn't quite right.

Here is a link for those interested, And I do want to thank everyone for the help and suggestions... And now because someone suggested Ugartechea, I believe the next itch to scratch might be a Model 153... next year unless I sell a few I don't use anymore.

https://www.gunbroker.com/item/797370627

Thanks Lonnie.

2-1/2" chambers?

Nice gun I believe those chambers have been opened up. Nothing wrong with that. If the gun was all original I believe it would have went for more money. I could be wrong.

You won't be disappointed, it is a British gun and fulfills all your criteria of "Classy" and still in your budget. Once you hold and look at side by sides, you can see the Brits do have the edge on any American or European shotgun for weight, fit and finish...

Woodmaster:

I don't disagree with what you wrote, but as a caveat, I did a stock fitting on a Blaser F3 that set me back $650. I also had a Beretta Silver Pigeon V 28 ga that came with a straight English stock. I couldn't adapt to it and sent it to Cole Gunsmithing who replaced the stock with a pistol grip stock for a total of $1,000 expended. Yes, it was nice piece of XX+ walnut and I love the gun since the stock was replaced. It is now a quail killer par excellence! But the price of stock fitting must be figured into the overall cost of the gun.

If you find a nice Parker VHE in fine, original condition and do a stock fitting, you have devalued the collector value of the gun considerably.

Just saying....

Read the last paragraph of my last post which begins, "If buying a gun to shoot..." and you will see I covered the caveats you brought up. I would balk at spending $650 to fit a Savage 311 but that would be reasonable to me on an F3 that retails for several thousand dollars. $1000 for an upgraded replacement stock for a Beretta 687 is also a great deal even for a -$3000 gun. If it would have been the typical factory grade wood for that price, I would have walked away.

As for the Parker, I would have it fitted in a heartbeat if I were buying it to be a shooter. As mentioned, I would factor the cost of fitting into what I would be willing to pay. It makes zero sense to me to buy a firearm to use but keep it in a condition which reduces its utility. Now, if this thread was in regards to collecting guns rather than shooting them my answers might be different.

LJ,

I have actually heard of Monk (besides the TV series) and they were spoken highly of. I think you did well.

There were many good, small gunmakers scattered across Britain which were overshadowed by London and even Birmingham. Finding these gems allows one to experience classic British game guns at a fraction of the price of the "name" makers. There is little downside to these makers as any parts breakage, unlikely as it may be, would mean having to fabricate a new part which would be offset by the reasonable initial price of the gun. You will probably see a faster rise in value with this gun as these lesser known makers become better known. Again, good purchase.

There are gunfitters and then there are those who know what they are doing. In addition, unless one has solid mechanics, it is hard for those who can fit to arrive at the correct dimensions.

Then there are the old British guns, and the fact is they were made with softer metals than what are used today. Which is why the Brits had them tightened up frequently when they were used more than a little. Great SxS shotguns for balance and design, but if one is going to use them a lot, then be prepared to maintain them more than their modern day counterparts. Available parts, or having them made, is another issue if something breaks.