Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Ask The Gunwriters John, will we ever see a commercial 6.5/06 loading?

With all the love for everything 6.5, do you forsee any of the commercial ammo makers ever bringing a 6.5/06 offering to market? Curious on your thoughts. Appreciate it.

Not John, obviously.

With the Creed, Swede, 6.5 PRC, 6.5-284, .260, 6.5x47, .264, etc..., don't know why the market would demand (or have room for) a 6.5-06.

The twist offered with the new rounds are a big part of their success with new, high B.C. bullets.

What would a 6.5-06 twist be? If not at least 8, forget it.

IMO,

DF

AKWolverine,

The A-Square company introduced the 6.5-06 as a SAAMi commerical cartridge in 1997, but it died with the company in 2012.

The 6.5 PRC is essentially a short-action 6.5-06, since the powder capacity is just about identical.

John, do you remember what twist they had?

DF

Yep, familier with that history just wondered your thoughts.
Thanks!

I have a 6.5 06 with a 1 in 8 twist barrel. I really like it. I have Creeds, 264’s and a 26 Nosler, but take the 6.5-06 most of the time if I’m going 6.5. I like the 120 Barnes.

DF,

Don't know about the production rifles (though that info could no doubt be found) but the A-Square manual lists 1-9 for the pressure barrel.

I know I've a Mauser action that was originally a J.C. Higgins Model 50 in .270 (and no, I didn't shoot the donor, but I was tempted!). The plan is a 9.3 x 62, but I keep thinking 6.5 x 55, or possibly 6.5-06 to take full advantage of the action length. Then I think, no, build the 9.3 x 62 and just buy a 6.5 Creedmoor Ruger American. Quoting Mule Deer, "One into two is typical Rifle Loony math."

I’d just like to be able to grab 6.5 /06 147 elds off the shelf ...
But I’m sure it would take away from hornady’s 6.5 prc sales, which is why I was curious on John’s thoughts if others might have interest in reviving it.

According to the A-Square reloading manual "Any Shot You Want" it lists a 1-9" twist for the 6.5/06.

Thanks, Elk.

That is a good round, but my point, in such a crowded field, is there room for another?

9 twist should do OK, would prefer 8 twist in that round.

Would go 8 twist if building a 6.5-06.

DF

Dirtfarner,

Gee, my feelings are hurt! I mention the same thing as Elkhunter in a reply to you 20 minutes earlier, and you don't thank me.

Will mention that E.R. Shaw built me a 6.5-06 when they first started making rifles, I believe in 2008. They didn't do 1-8 twist 6.5 barrels back then, so it had a 1-9. They also build a 6.5/.284 for a friend of mine, identical except for the chambering. Neither rifle had any trouble with Berger 140-grain VLD's, which isn't too surprising since I live in Montana and my friend in South Dakota. In fact mine would shoot 3-inch groups at 600 yards with them. (Nowadays, of course, Shaw does make 1-8 6.5 barrels.) Probably wouldn't do quite as well in central Louisiana, however....

I could see Browning making a special run. Heck, they made a run of 284s awhile back. Give me an X-Bolt Hunter in 6.5-06 and factory ammo with 140 partitions and Katie bar the door!

140 VLD’s shot great in the three 264’s I’ve had. Two Sako’s and a Westerner. They are 1 in 9 I think. I’m a couple hundred feet above sea level. Deer and pigs didn’t go far if you hit them in the heart lungs, maybe 10 feet. It was like a bomb explosion inside of them.

Call it a 6.5x63 Creedmoor and it should sell like hotcakes.

The 6.5-06 has something the others don't.....a very large pile of 270 and .30-06 brass sitting in buckets all over the country.....that's an advantage that is hard to ignore.....and just might be the reason no one makes ammo for it.....it won't sell well with all the "free" brass out there.

But let's be practical....what do we get from a 6.5-06 (regardless of twist) that we don't get from a .25-06 or even the venerable old.270?....and I mean advantages that the "run of the mill" hunter can actually make use of!

yea, yea, yea.....I know.....since when did practicality have anything to do with it? I have used the 6.5 X 55, the .260 Rem, and the .264 Win Mag.....and frankly haven't seen any real advantage one over the other in the field.

I have to hand it to Hornady.....seems their marketing folks could sell ice cubes to eskimos!

Hmmm...

Elk getting more respect?

I owe you one, promise to treat you better next time.

Ha!

DF

Ha!

Am not surprised he gets more respect, after shooting jackrabbits with a .460 Weatherby....

Yeah, he’s really hard on those poor ole jackwabbits.

DF

Well, to be fair, even with all that brass out there, I suspect they are still managing to sell trainloads of .30-06 and .270 . . . But then taking your side, there are a whole lot of .25-06, .270, and .30-06 actions out there that could be converted with a barrel and that would feed 6.5-06 smooth as can be.

You don't get anything much until you get to ranges most of us don't shoot, and fewer of us should shoot at game . . . But we all want to feed our "inner sniper"!

You could shoot prairie dogs with your .416 Rigby. Seems about relative. I'd respect that!

For those of us that shoot prairie puppies.....usually it's a lot of shooting.....typically several hundred rounds per day.....Not too many folks have the pocketbook for using a 416 Rigby that way.....let alone the shoulder hammering.....

I once tried long range prairie dog shooting with a .300 Win Mag.......never again!

6.5x284
6.5 mag
6.5 prc
Are almost the same,
and a hot Sweed isn't far behind.

Would a 6.5-06 be a good cartridge.

Oh yeah.

But does it bring anything to the table?
Not really.

Lately, we have been smothered in similar releases.


But then, if one was follow that path to its conclusion,
You might say 1923 brought us the last significant cartridge.
Or the 222.
Maybe the 7mag.

Really, there hasn't been much new since the 7.
Just different ways to throw the same stone.

I turned my first deer rifle (30/06 Ruger 77) into a 6.5/06 somewhere around 2002. The old barrel was pretty much shot the fugg out.

All things being equal, I wish it was a 30/06 again.

Now if you was a hoss, like Gunner500, you may have shot out your .416 Rigby, got it rebored to .505 Gibbs.

But that boy’s one of a kind.

DF

It wasn't that many years ago when reading a forum like this I would run out and get a 6.5-06 put together, develop loads for it, then hang it on the shelve with several dozen just like it. The 6.5-06 is a darn good looking cartridge but it doesn't do anything others don't unless you happen to be a ballistician trying to check off a box of perfection, but hey it's a sickness you know, so I think I will get going on one anyway!

If they marketed it as a 6.5-06 “creedmore” it would be a hit. 😀

With the hysteria that seems to have developed over the terrible disadvantages posed by long cartridges and their accompanying long actions, it seems doubtful.

Well said.

It's exactly what some of those who don't guffaw over the Creedmoor have stated; most hunters or shooters wont and can't use it to any greater advantage than a 25/06 or 270 and going to lighter bullets for less recoil isn't going to make two bits worth under the ranges most are comfortable with.

In one anecdote the 6.5-06 will best the 6.5 Creedmoor for velocity with the same bullets at similar recoil levels, but in another it hasn't been introduced commercially because it offers little over available cartridges. Pretty convoluted.

John/MuleDeer

Now, Hornady has lots of data for the 6.5 PRC. Would you be comfortable using Hornady’s starting loads as a beginning point for 6.5-06 load development?

Thanks

Not really, for two reasons:

There's a considerable difference between Hornady's 6.5 PRC data and Hodgdon's new PSI data for the 6.5-06.

Plus, Hodgdon has plenty of 6.5-06 data, so why bother?

I built quite a few 6.5/06 rifles in the early eighties and most used 9 inch twist since I mostly used Shilen barrels at the time and they didn't make an eight. I built some using 8 twist barrels from other makers and always felt that they were a little more consistent . The 8 twist became my "go to" twist for the 6.5/06 and all other 6.5's. The 6.5/06 would comfortably push 140's to just over 2900 fps. Guys who achieved over 3000 fps had to replace brass fairly often when primer pockets loosened. My 256 Newton might manage 2900, given the right powder, but 2850 is more like it; about 100 fps over my 6.5x55. GD

6.5-284 is about a ballistic clone to the 6.5-06. I get a solid 3K fps velocity with 140 VLD Hunting over 48.8 gr. RL-17 and with great accuracy. Exceeding that charge, groups start to open, still with no pressure signs until exceeding 3,100+ fps.

As they say, when you actually do see pressure signs with RL-17, you're WAY over SAAMI limits.

DF

I wonder how well a factory Remington 700 in 6.5-06 would sell? I think it would do well. I would buy one for sure! They would have to make ammo for it also.

Think they'd twist it fast enough? IMO, 8 twist would be great.

DF

I've been telling my Creemoor shooting friends this for a long time, but they think the 6.5 is magic, I'll stick to the gay old 270!

I have one old "closet" .270 that I put together on a Springfield action back in the '60's when I was young and before I "knew"...

Vintage McGowen SS barrel, Timney, French Walnut Herter stock, etc. Shoots good.

Never killed a critter with it, always shooting "cooler" stuff, like one of my various 6.5's...

DF

Doubt it will happen but who knows there might be a special run or a smaller company doing a limited edition. Except for the SAAMI legitimization I would rather see a 6.5-06AI or the 6.5x280AI or even the 6.5-06 RCBS version with the 30% shoulder. These would best the 270 & 25-06 by at least 100 fps so slightly less redundant than the other 6.5s. As someone mentioned with modern rifles and components the old Swede gets pretty close to the 6.5-06 in performance, close enough you probably couldn't tell the difference in the field between the two.

DF Nice piece of history. Except for the Monty Carlo the lines of the stock are still classic. I bet you were listening to the Beach Boys are some California Band when you put that one together.

You may be onto something...

I cut a bunch of "roll over" cheek piece to get it to what you see.

It's sorta heavy, but I wasn't worried about weight back then.

I did the skip a line checkering, as that was "cool" in the day. Not so much now.

DF

Ain't notoriety a b!@#h?

IIRC, A-Square also had a 6.5-308, but Rem got it thru the SAAMI somehow before, wonder if they had to pay royalties.

If Hornady brings out a round, they do things right, twist, marketing, quality ammo at decent prices.

When Rem did the 260, they hamstrung it, 9 twist, marginal sub-par ammo in accuracy and speed, and not decent prices.

Had Hornady done the 6.5-308 they would have had an 8 twist, quality affordable ammo, and might have used a 25 or 30 degree shoulder......

3” actions would have solved a lot of issues, would be about perfect for .260, .257R, Swede, 6mm Rem to name a few. The 2.8” SA limited a number of good rounds. The Creed craze was birthed to serve SA’s using modern, long bullets.

DF

3" is a little short for the 6.5x55, one reason it's primarily a favorite among rifle loonies who "build" custom rifles.

Mine is on a commercial FN 98 action, with a pretty short-throated chamber and 3.35" magazine box, which leaves plenty of room for any bullet.

Might also mention that no, the 6.5x55 doesn't have anywhere near the powder capacity of the 6.5-06--around 16% less, depending on the throat, brass, etc. So its capable of about 100 fps less at the same pressures, with the same bullets.

But as I've pointed out elsewhere, most handloaders tend to be obsessed with adding another 100 fps (or more) of muzzle velocity. But with "standard" spitzer soft-points, that advantage diminishes rapidly out where the deer and antelope play. For some hunters, it makes more sense to add 100+ fps out where the bullet actually lands on 'em.

My FN 98, Swede with 23" Shilen in McWoody Edge. Great combo, action and round.

DF

Nice rifle!

My FN 6,5x55 Norwegian/Swede, with 21" Lilja and New Zealand walnut stock:

That’s nice.

Classic lines, well executed. What’s not to like.

DF

Funny that one of the oldest that does every bit most of the others in a proper action is considered not in demand. Twist is what you make it and I think manufactures are figuring out the current "desires". I see 10# short actioned rifles being quite popular.

The one thing that nobody has addressed thus far is the fact that most folks who have a 6.5/06 use .25/06 brass. The down side is that if one's .25/06 has a slightly oversize neck, then 6.5/06 ammo could potentually be chambered. IIRC, this was related to me by Ray Montgomery of Co.

For this reason, when I made mine, I specified mine being chambered to 6.5/64 Brenneke. (a.k.a. 6.5x.270) OK, so it's a silly millimeter longer... But at least it won't chamber in a .25/06

For that reason, I would doubt that the major arms makers will ever make a factory 6.5/06. BTW, they load fine in .65/06 dies... - G.H.

That's one of the reasons I'd do a 6.5-.270 if ever building another "6.5-06." The other is that I got better accuracy when necking .270 brass down than necking .25-06 up, because that avoids the small "donut" at the base of the neck, due to the thicker brass at the top of .25-06 shoulders becoming part of the 6.5-06 neck. But I doubt there's another 6.5-06 in my future, since my 6.5 PRC shoots so well, both with handloads and factory ammo.

Despite all the debate over various 6.5 cartridges today, there are real reasons for the popularity of newer 6.5 rounds. One is consistent chamber throats, which vary considerably in older rounds like the 6.5x55, even in modern rifles (which is why 6.5x55 factory ammo varies considerably). Which is why I had the custom 6.5x55 pictured above chambered with a slightly shorter throat than SAAMI standard.

Then there's the .260: Even some factory rifles have magazines that won't handle some "standard" hunting bullets seated to the lands. Which is why my .260 has a customized magazine 2.95 inches long.

Yeah, I know nobody on the Campfire admits to using factory ammo, but one reason for the 6.5 Creedmoor's popularity is excellent (and relatively inexpensive) factory ammo that can be purchased almost anywhere, including Wal-Marts and even the local ranch-supply store in my little Montana town. Or even South Africa. One of my African PH friends owns a big sporting goods store in Kimberley, and reports around 3/4 of the new rifles he sells these days are 6.5 Creedmoors. One of my American friends (a Campfire member) who hunts Africa every year reports the same thing from other store owners.

Which brings up problems with resuscitating the 6.5-06 a factory round. First, it's still primarily a wildcat, even with the A-Square adventure, and gunsmiths who build wildcats often have their own ideas about chamber-throat conformation, which would make producing factory ammo somewhat problematic. Two, with all the factory 6.5's already on the market, including some selling very well, why would any rifle manufacturer bother taking the risk?

Classic rifle, you should take it afield just to old times sake! It's a beauty!

It is beautiful for sure, I bet that rifle would like to go hunting!!!

John and Switch, thanks for those kind words.

It has always been somewhat of a step child, patiently waiting it's turn from the back of the safe.

You're right, it does deserve field time, maybe this Fall.

DF

That's a very nice looking rig, JB. What's that scope, iif I may ask?

That's a 2-7x Leupold Compact, one of the older VX models. Used it for a while, then realized that (per usual) I never turned it off 7x, so replaced it was an M8 6x33 Compact.

Yes,it is!

Thanks for the reply, JB! That's a nice scope.

I keep wondering when you are going to upgrade your jackrabbit arsenal, Ken-505 Gibbs maybe?

Now, today, is my first time to read any of this thread. It's raining here.... bored.

Gun doc on P 2 said,



and then HawkI said here on P 3




These summarize my position on Xtr Hi BCs, even at moderate velocities. Even when I hunted deer leases there were FEW places to get a decent shot past 400 yds. Yes, I saw deer at 500 & + yds but they were moving and there were bushes, saplings etc that precluded an UNobstructed target.

Since 2012 I hunt property where I could/can get an OPEN shot up to 400 yds.....SO, what advantage is it to me... and Gun Doc & Hawk hit the nail on the head about MANY of us hunters.

I like and appreciate the 6.5-06 but it doesn't fill any gap that I have.

Jerry

On to P 4

5's comment is merit worthy too.

Jerry

GAWDY ! GAWDY !
reminiscent of Wby Mk V, Kleingunther, Colt Sauer etc.

OH! btw I like GAWDY DF

Jerry

HEY ! He's Alive ! Good to see you back here.

I've read up to date. Since it's been raining, I've loaded my FIRST test loads of Rl 26 and 162s in my 7 RM.
Next up is H 4350 and 165 HBTSP in 06.

I'll pressure test & graph at the same time next week.


Jerry

Yeah, sorta flashy, but that was the rage back in the day.

DF

D F

I wanted a Kleingunther so bad.... $ 750.00
I wanted a Wby Mk V 270 Wby...,, $ 800.00
I wanted a Colt Sauer 300 Win .... & 800.00

A months pay for me at the time.
I’d STILL take an older Colt Sauer today.

Jerry

Yeah, all slick guns. I helped a good bud sell a Colt Sauer, really smooth, well made rifle.

I don’t have but one Mk V, now wearng a 7RM Brux in Wby Express McWoody. Sorta lost most of the Wby glitz.

DF

That looks similar to my 70 Black Shadow -> -> 300 WM


I have a better pic that I can't find on Ph B or Imgur. I've replaced the scope with much a better one.



Here are a couple of bucks I've killed with the 300.


1st Deer I shot with it. 10 pt, 194 lbs whole. 2008




2010, 8 pt




2009, 6 pt -- 17 1/2 inside spread


Jerry

jwall- did you bed that Black Shadows stock or shoot it as is?

I had the most fun, in a 6.5 cal, with a pre-SAAMI wildcat 6.5/284. I necked down 284 WW brass and used it in a SA Mod 700. I wanted to stick with the 120-125 Noslers and it so happened, that reamer had a shorter throat than the SAAMI reamer does. So it worked out swell for my 2.79" COAL. For the ranges I shoot, that was a stretched string trajectory of just using +1" high at 100. If I went ever had another 6.5 wildcat made up, I'd have to seriously consider the 6.5 Sherman ( a necked down .270 blown out and shoulder moved forward.) But again, for me, either the 25-06 or now, this .270, does the same thing. It scratches my itch pretty good.

Dirtfarmer Kool looking rifle for the era, with all the right items, very neat. Cheers NC

Jim, the short answer is no, I didn't bed it.

I found and bought the gun at a Pawn Shop on Saturday afternoon , OPENING DAY of our deer season. I went straight to WM and bought-- yep Fed Blue Box 300 WM 180s, 2 boxes. That night I checked the action screws and all was tight. I checked the scope and the bases were loose.
I cleaned and tightened the bases and rings.

On Monday @ 1:00 pm I checked for accuracy. The first 4 shots were wadded up, not one ragged hole but LESS than 1 ". I then adjusted the scope. It tracked perfectly, 1 adjustment and horizontal was good, 1 adjustment and vertical was good.
Mon. evening I went back to WM and bought 3 more boxes of the same Lot #. That gave me 100 rounds of brass.

On TUESDAY AM that 10 pt came out of the thicket at 180 yds. 1 shot and he was out of sight. He traveled @ 30-35 yds.

I killed 3 or 4 deer with it and THAT same ammo. EVERY bullet fragmented and some did NOT exit. I simply pulled those S H C bullets and seated 180 HSPs. END of problem. I hunted the Black Shadow exclusively 08-- 09-- 10. You can see THE exit hole on the 2nd pic in 2010.


In August I tested the 165 HBTSP. 4 shots






That's a NICKEL or 3/4" O D. So...... "If it Ain't Broke.........."

All I've done since is put a GOOD 4-12X40 scope on it.

Jerry

Thanks. Here some more photos and details.

I picked up this '50's vintage 98 FN action here on the Classifieds, in the white, all the work already done. Buyer had bought it at a gunshow, didn't know the history, who did the work, but it was top notch. The three panel bolt handle, welded to perfection. The swing safety is two, not three position. The Canjar trigger hasn't been made for many years.

I had JKob fit the barrel, alter the safety to not lock the bolt. I got a Classic McWoody Edge before McM quit offering marble finishes without black backgounds on Edge stocks, as the black carbon shell sometimes showed through. McWoody has a brown background, so until they change that rule, there evidently will be no more Edge McWoody stocks.

I had to send the gun to McM for fitting, as there are so many Mauser variations. I can make alterations, but not with the McWoody finish. That increased the cost a bit, but not that bad. I lucked up with an unusualy nice McWoody pattern. I have three McWoody stocks, this one with the fanciest grain pattern.

The Conquest 2.5-8x32 in Talley rings is a nice match for the gun, which required med heigth rings for the straight bolt handle to clear the ocular.

Add the blued 23" #2 Shilen and this is the finished product. This Swede loves the 139 Scenar, doesn't do as well with lighter bullets. It's a bit more finicky than my 6.5 Creed; the Creed shoots about anything MOA, with loads it likes, sub-MOA. The Swede is more selective on its sub-MOA loads, not as generous as the Creed. But, I'll take the 139 Scenar and run with it without feeling handicapped...

DF

DF,
That is one sweet rig! Great story, as well. You got a keeper, for sure.

Yep, that one ain't goin' nowhere....

DF

Yes, Indeed D F.

I remember seeing pix of it before and always good to drool over it.

GORGEOUS !

Jerry

I've always thought that 100 FPS doesn't makes a dang bit of difference. Please correct me if I am wrong.

Depends. Practically, no, but so far as succeeding or failing in the market, it very well can. Gun manufacturers are out to sell guns and make money, not offer practical, not make money, and go broke.

Tom

What still puzzles me is just how many FPS do matter.

Fair point.

Slinging large hunks of lead at modest velocity is big medicine.

Different strokes for different folks.

How modest is too modest?

High Noon,

Yes, 100 fps (or more) can make a definite difference at longer ranges, and I'm not talking about 500+ yards but "typical" hunting ranges. Have seen some flat-based spitzers expand minimally at ranges under 300, and not by "guessing" they didn't expand much by looking at entrance and exit holes, but by recovering bullets, often from animals that didn't die very quickly even when shot well through the chest.

The higher the retained velocity, the less likely this is to happen--and a higher-BC bullet will often catch up to or surpass a typical flat-based spitzer in velocity at 300 yards, even when started as much as 300 fps slower. When started only 100 fps slower, it will catch up far sooner, and after it catches up will retain even more velocity as range increase. Along with expanding more reliably, it will drift less in the wind.

Have seen this over and over again over the years, and not just at 300+ yards. Will be posting a column on this very subject next week, with far more details. If you want to discuss the subject more after that, then will be happy to accommodate you.

Mule Deer: Thank you for the reply. Your argument makes perfect sense. I look forward to reading your your post on the subject.

Certainly, a high BC bullet will improve the effectiveness of a given caliber, especially in the case of the 6.5X55 SE, which has moderate velocity + I think that the long bullets and rather deep penetration of the Swede, combined with the relatively high BC result in a cartridge that easily outperforms what the ballistics might otherwise lead one to believe - probably out to 300 yds.+. In my admittedly limited experience, I have found that Hornady's 6.5X55 SE Superformance, 140 GR SST with a .520 BC is quite accurate and effective.

Although I am a rank novice at reloading, my 140 gr Nosler Partitions over RL22 has not duplicated the accuracy of the Superformance. I do have some Berger VLDs and Laupa bullets to try, as well as a few different powders (H4350 & RL26). I have not had a chance to work on it much as of late, but perhaps I can find a recipe that comes close to the Superformance.

What I'm "fixin" to say should come as no surprise to most here.

I don't waste time determining what the minimum velocity (speed) needed is,


I want all I can get. I like 7 Mags & 300 Win Mags. I don't have to worry IF I HAVE ENOUGH !!

NOTE: other people's mileage DOES vary. That's Okay with me, MINE does too.


Jerry

ps: Read my sig line.

Another thing that goes along the lines of less wind drift, less wind drift makes higher B.C. bullets more accurate, by default. They also drop less, which is what John is describing, again both details increasing the accuracy window of the target in question, not just terminal effects.

Going to heavier, longer, higher B.C. bullets also (if the dies are set up correctly for the bullets) can produce lower runout numbers upon loading, again making smaller, more accurate groups.

Seems to me we need to pay extra attention to bullet design and velocity. A bullet that's great at 2,800 fps can be less impressive at 3,000 fps, a disaster at 3,200 fps.

IMO, we gotta match bullet design parameters with usage and speed for optimal terminal performance. There's about as much art as science in making an optimal match up. Loads that work great for target shooters may not be Kosher on game. I'm a hunter/shooter, not a target guy. But, I appreciate the work done by the target crowd on ballistics, etc. That info helps us all.

DF

DF,
That's why I like the idea of a Nosler Accubond(not LRAB!) for the faster 6.5s. Yes, they don't have quite the BC that some of the newer 6.5 projectiles, but they should hold up on big game animals after being started at 3200 plus?

The other side of that is why do they have to be started at 3200+?