Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Ask The Gunwriters Lilgun Warning

I saw a warning for the use of Lilgun in Freedom Arms revolvers. Apparently, the powder was causing flame cutting. Has anyone had a problem like that come-up? How would it's use in rifles compare? I know it is favorite for the 22 Hornet and 221 Fireball users.

Rifles don't have the cylinder-barrel gap.

Works good in the 10mm Glock 40.

Must burn pretty hot to be cutting an FA frame.

DF

I've seen H110/W296 do it to my S&W wheel guns. How is LilGun more special in that regards?

Lil gun burns significantly hotter when used near it's pressure peak.

With a full load of it under an RCBS 400gr SWC in the 480 Ruger SuperRed it would make the gun ring like a bell.
Spooky, though the primers didn't show any flattening, certainly no more than normal. Case expansion was the same as factory loads. As those are not always good indicators in pistol cartridges the prudent handloader in me said I'll back this down.

Dropped 1 grain and the ringing went away, and another half grain for good measure.

IIRC, the velocity of the top load was 1280 fps?

-1.5gr. yielded 1200-1225 fps

My understanding is the concern is about throat erosion more than cutting the frame. It's kind of old news though (came out maybe 10 years ago IIRC?) so I've forgotten the specifics. Lil'Gun does work great in the 300 Blk though.

DF, are you thinking of Longshot in the 10mm, or Lil'Gun? I've honestly never tried Lil'Gun in the 10mm since it's in the same general burn rate as H110 which is too slow.

You are absolutely right, Longshot, not Lil’gun. Too many loads floating around in an antique brain.

I do use Lil’gun, just not in the 10mm

I have a 7” KKM barrel headed my way for my Glock 40. I plan to try 38-40, 180 gr soft lead cowboy action bullets in that gun. I have a good supply, will see how they shoot. They’re very accurate in my 1910 vintage Win ‘92. Hope the Glock/KKM combo shoots them as well.

Thanks for the correction.

Lil’gun is good .300 Blackout powder. Actually mine is an SSK .300 Whisper.

DF

It’s the heat generated by Lillgun that eroads forcing cones Freedom arms will not warranty forcing cone erosion if Lillgun is used.

So, it is the gap between the cylinder and frame which makes it act like a torch? Therefore, Lilgun will not harm a rifle chamber's throat when used in a bolt action. Correct?

I tried LilGun in my Rossi .357 magnum rifle based on published loads that Brian Pearce recommended in an article. Followed the recipe exactly and blew a primer on the first batch. 2.5 or 3 grains below max. Went back to 2400.

Too many other powders out there for me to want to mess with lilgun

I used a lot of it with no problems in 44 mags. But my style of load and creatures I use a revolver on these days made me go back to Unique for my 44 needs.

Yep. A Bob Baker thing and exclusive, I believe, to the 454 Casull.

High pressure and heat evidently turns it into something like a plasma torch...

Maybe with lower pressure rounds, not as bad. But, after hearing this, wouldn't risk it in my 454 if I had one...

Too many good powders now to chose from.

DF

barm,

Have been using Li'l Gun in my Ruger No. 1B .22 Hornet for 16 years now, for plenty of prairie dog shooting where the barrel often got pretty hot. Through the borescope the throat looks nearly new, and accuracy is as excellent as ever.

Now, that said, the .22 Hornet isn't known as a barrel-burner, but don't know of a rifle round where Li'l Gun would be a good choice that would be known for frying barrels.

300 MP is another good .22 Hornet and K-Hornet powder, currently my favorite in the K-Hornet.

DF

See my reply about those in the other thread in the Handguns forum. Soft bullets like that are generally a poor choice in high pressure loads like the 10mm uses.

What if I don't push them to the wall, drop back enough to cycle the action?

DF

L'il Gun is first choice for several of my rifles, no issues other than monotonously small groups.
.22 K-Hornet (2)
.30 Carbine
.44 Mag

Been using it for about 20 years.

I can't find the link to Bob Baker's comments on this issue, but I have read a number of first hand accounts of Lil'gun causing throat damage when used a high pressures (60K psi+). My interest stems from my use of the 45 Raptor. I like the reported velocities people are achieving with the powder but I am not willing to gamble with a Krieger barrel. Too expensive for me to gamble with!

Should be OK if you keep pressures low; use the stock spring and load down till it just cycles. Universal might be a good choice there?
I've done plenty of that in the 40, but in the 10mm I rarely load anything but full power, so I'm sorta guessing on powder choice.

Having trouble understanding using it for loads in that pressure range. Seems kind of radical. Been using it for hornet loads many years now.

I use it at about that pressure in the 300 Blk, and so do about a million other people. I've never heard of throat erosion issues in that cartridge. It's not exactly known as a barrel burner, but then neither is most anything else that would use Lil'Gun in a rifle.

What cartridges did you read the first hand accounts about, and were they rifles or revolvers?

I wouldn't expect that to be relevant to rifles. Flame cutting comes from hot high pressure gas exiting the barrel-cylinder gap. It's essentially 65K PSI flowing into std atmospheric pressure all at once. In a rifle barrel, even with that same initial pressure, the gradient is vastly lower than at a revolver cylinder. By the time the bullet leaves the barrel uncorking what pressure is left, it's under 10K PSI if I remember right. Big difference.

(Best guess, of course.)

Tom

Lil Gun's pressure curve is what makes it such a great powder in, as noted here, Hornets and Fireballs. But keep in mind those are pretty much full-house RIFLE pressures, not wheelguns. Maybe a stainless insert that wraps around the upper part of the frame opening? But that gap gets some high-speed gas flow, for sure.

The problems that have been cited have been with 454 Casull and 460 S&W. All in revolvers, both top strap and forcing cone. I know my rifle application is not the same thing. Probably the best idea would be for me to run a Ruger American 450 Bushmaster hot as a test bed.

Heard of a guy shooting a 260 S&W with a two hand hold, let his thumb get a bit too far forward. The plasma gas from the cylinder gap took the tip of his thumb off, clean as a sharp knife.

Not something to play with.

DF

Here’s the deal. Someone sent in a 454 for warranty work forcing cone erosion, FA repaired and sent it back to owner. If memory serves he sent it back for forcing cone erosion twice more. BOb Baker learned that he was useing Lillgun, so he set up TP round test in a FA 357 magnum and gun gun got so hot that Bob Baker had to use a pencil on the trigger to avoid burns. Bob concluded that Lillgun gun a burn temperature was the problem and no longer warranties forcing cone erosion if Lillgun is used.

I have seen erratic results with lilgun in a 221 Fireball rifle. Using a couple tenths below a recommended load I had excellent accuracy with a couple of groups so I loaded a box. Later, shooting rabbits, I had a couple of blown primers. The rest of the brass looked fine. Backed off a couple more tenths and had similar experience. No idea what causes it, but I won't use it in a Fireball again. I may try it in a Hornet since everyone recommends it for that.

Jerry

Used LilGun in several 22H rifles for about 15 years. It has performed better than any hornet powder, both accuracy and speed. Have used in 221 FB also, with good but not great results, had to back off from max to avoid flat primers.

I've used it in a Ruger 77/44, it flings a 300 grain WFN with some authority.

I've noticed in the Hodgdon books that LilGun has sweet spots for various cartridges like the Hornet and .357 mag where it gives great velocity with much lower pressures. Those are the loads I use it for. Other loads, like the .44 mag, not so much, so I stick with H110 and 2400.

H110 gives just slightly better accuracy so far in my Hornet, but not enough better for the 10000 lbs extra pressure, so I'm switching over as my loaded ammo gets used up.

Thank you to everyone who has posted. I bought Lilgun for a 22 Hornet and now I no longer have the rifle. I was trying to figure out what else I could use it in for when I came across the warning from Freedom Arms. I guess I could use it for fertilizer

Lil gun always gave me the best velocity in 357 mag. I read about the possible issues years ago and have shied away from it a bit. I use more pp300mp lately. PP also works great for fast lighter bullet 300 BO loads. Itll drive 110 vmaxes to 2500 from a 16" ar.

Bb

I contacted Hodgdon ~ 15 years ago and said my best velocities with 158 gr hard cast in 357 mag was with LIL'GUN. I asked why they were not publishing such a load? I was told it melted the base of the bullets. I did not seem to have that problem.