Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Deer Hunting Do you still consider bullet frontal area?

We're currently living in good days, as far as equipment goes, from rifles to bullets and optics. We can now do more with less, so to speak, and I doubt there's a deer or hog that I've ever killed that couldn't have been killed just as dead with a .243win shooting a little 80gr TTSX. Many deer hunters are shying away from the magnums and realizing the attraction of easy-shooting and accurate rifles in moderate chamberings like the 6.5CM, which I like to see because it promotes practice and making good shots. I'm much the same way, but my question is this: When weather conditions are bad, or cover is really thick, do you still find yourself leaning toward bigger calibers to carry into the deer woods?

I'm curious, because while I've killed quite a few animals with the 6.5's in the last decade (and nearly as many with 6mm/257 rifles), I've noticed that tracking jobs, on average, are not typically quite as easy as those involving hits with .30cal or larger bullets. Not that the 6.5's have been disappointing, or lack the ability for clean kills, but that recovery of animals has been somewhat more work when dealing with blood trails in wet pine thickets or muddy bayou bottoms. As good as the smaller chamberings are these days, I still find myself reaching for the insurance of a .308, .338, or maybe even a .358 cal rifle when I don't want extra work while trailing in sub-par conditions. Thoughts?

JPro; I hope this day finds you and yours well.

The last several years most of my hunting has been with the 7-08 and the .260 however if I feel a need to limit distance travelled after the shot or will be hunting under conditions which may necessitate a shot of less than ideal presentation I pull out the .325 WSM.

I have not done any analysis of animals I have shot to know if the .325 makes them deader faster or if I just feel better with the words of Elmer Keith article read long ago echoing in the hollows of my head.

All the best. GRF

I have not seen bore diameter make any difference in how quickly the deer drops. For a long time I was subscribing to the thought that my small, fast 6mm & 257" rifles were killing deer faster...

Then I hunted with a traditional 50 cal muzzle loader using a soft 385 gr hollow point for a couple of years. Two shots. Two instant kills. Hmm. From a 1300 fps big bore chunk of lead. Well crud, there went my light-fast bullet superiority theory.

Mostly I've found that when I do a good job of shooting, the critters either drop where they were, or there's only a very short tracking job.

I have to admit though, that mostly I hunt mule deer in fairly open country.

So no, I don't worry 'bout how big around the bullet is. The past few years I seem to bounce back and forth between hunting with my 25-06 or my 30-06, and the results all tend to be about the same. They all seem to work if I shoot well.

Regards, Guy

Probably a third of the critters I shoot in a given year will fall due to shoulder shots or head-on shots, and in those cases, the moderate chamberings seem to do just about as well as the bigger rifles. It's when they don't drop right there that I notice a difference in recovery effort. If I only hunted open woods or fields on pretty days, I'd say a 6.5 is actually more gun than is likely needed, but a forest floor of nothing but wet, reddish-brown pinestraw is not very forgiving during night tracking with a light blood trail.

Gun and bullets don't actually kill game. Bullet holes kill game.
The deepest hole that can be had is clear through. 100%.

So the only other factor we can "adjust" is hole diameter.

Bullets that turn off and don't penetrate in a fairly straight line can be devastating but also they can be disappointing. You have no control of the actual wound when a bullet turns at a radical angel inside the animal.

Bullets that make a fairly straight hole clear through the animal, expand well and always exit are best overall for practicability. Bore size is less important then bullet design.

The most devastating kills as an average are those that are inflicted at high velocity and still hold together with some fragmenting, but leaving about 75%+ of the bullet in one piece, and exiting.

The problem with this description is that many high velocity hits can become erratic with many bullet available.

For years the gold standard was (and I think still is) the Nosler Partition, but with some of the "super-duper mags" available today even the Partitions can blow up if the hit is at close range. These super magnums do a more reliable job when mated with expanding solids, like the Barnes Xs and the Hornady GMXs. The expanding solids thrive on speed. In fact they do not expand very well at below 2000 FPS, but it seems impossible to drive then too fast.

I have seen about 20 deer and antelope killed in the last few years with 223s. All have been killed at 300 yards and less. I have seen Sierra 65 grain, Nosler 60 Grain Partitions, Barnes 62 grain and Speer 70 grain bullets used. The Barnes and the Noslers exited every time. The Speers did 2 times in 3 shots, and the Sierras did one time in 4 shots. All resulted in dead deer, but the ones that ran were far easier to follow when there was a lot of blood from exits. No "new news" here. All deer hunters would have guessed this to be true.

When it comes to "what's best" I have my own opinion. It's based on 50+ years of hunting and with about 2/3s of that time also guiding. As the guy that is often helping others, my personal preference is for hunters to use rounds that are not super fast. My reason is from what I have seen over the years. The super fast rounds do give a higher percentage of "electric kills" then the slower rounds, but they also are the ones that do the most erratic things from time to time and in those times I have often been the man that tracked the deer, elk, moose, antelope or bear down.
The bullets that hold together and impact at speeds of between 1800 to 2550 seem to almost always leave me a good blood trail and when the game runs, it almost never runs very far. Usually 60 yards of less. (Please note I did say ALMOST always. I have seen a few hits from bullets that did very weird things even in the old slow types, but those are the ones I can count on the fingers of one hand. For the super high velocity "weird effects" I would need about 2 more hands and 2 more feet to count the numbers on)

So coming to the original question. What would be "best"?

If we take your examples at the 2 extremes you listed, the 243 with 80 grain GMX and the 358 Winchester, lets say with a 225 grain Partition, my guess is that neither is going to be WAY AHEAD of the other for deer hunting. Reason? Both are going to kill very well and both will go clear through the deer. I would say the exits from the 358 are going to be larger and therefore bleed more, so any runs you compare from deer #1 to deer #2 are likely to be easier to follow from the larger hole. But neither is going to be head and shoulders ahead of the other because we are talking about deer here.

If elk were in the question the 358 is going to be more likely to give you a faster kill and leave more blood to follow. But I have personally killed a LOT of deer and many of them with very powerful guns up to and including the 375H&H, 416, 458, and 460. All kill well. None kill better then a 25-06 when used ON DEER! Why? As I said at the start, bullet HOLES kill.

The hole from a 458 Winchester with a 500 grain SP is not as large as it is from a 270 Winchester with a 150 grain SP. The 270 opens up to about 50 cal and is going quite fast so you get a good "splash" effect inside the chest. the 458 bullet is made to expand on buffalo, and a hit on a deer is so insignificant that "it doesn't even know it's hit something". The exit and the entrance are hard to tell apart.
Several of the deer I killed with the 458 ran about 30-40 yards and died. The ones I killed with the 270 nearly all fell before the recoil was done.

Many old timers loved their 35 Remington rifles for deer hunting because of short, easy to follow blood trails. I have to agree with them.

Same with the 170 grain 30-30 load and I am sure it will be the same with the 200-225 grain 358s too.

I have killed a lot of deer with a 9.3X74R and with very soft bullet like the 270 grain Speer, the kills are dramatic. But I killed a big deer with the 9.3X57 Mauser last year with a 250 grain Accu-Bond and that whitetail ran about 250 yards. I am 100% sure a hit in the same place with a good 243 with a Nosler Partition would have piled up that deer. The 243 would have made a more dramatic would. Not because it's more powerful (it's not near as powerful) but because that power would get used on the deer instead of the forest behind the deer.

You question is very simple, but the answer is extremely complex.

As for me, I tent to favor more mid velocity rounds then I do super fast one., That's the trend in my mind, but even that is not universal either.

The most dramatic "deer shell" I have every used (and even seen used) for one shot instant stops on deer (and even elk for that matter) in 50+ years is is still the 270 Winchester. And my 300 magnum with good tough 150 grain bullets is a lightning-bolt too.

But the weird ones, -- the ones that cause me to say "that just should not have happened" have nearly all been super fast rounds. (Nearly, but not all)
There are just too many variables in the question to give a pat answer.

I have been doing this for over 1/2 a century and have killed game in many states and a few other countries. I have lost count of the number of game kills I had made ----and I did that over 30 years ago.


And I am still learning.

[i][/i][u][/u]

When you said "frontal area" I flashed on tip shape. To that end I like a blunt round tip or better yet a flat meplat, and even better a flat meplat with a hollow point. Of course, most of my deer hunting is with cast bullets and such frontal areas are critical for good reliable expansion.

In the world of jacketed bullets, sheesh, just use whatever is engineered to expand at whatever distance/velocity you are impacting the animal, and whatever caliber your heart desires. Dead is dead and the degree of quickness of death depends entirely on where the bullet is placed.

I loaded some 125 grain Partitions for a Rem M7 in 260 that a friend used for a few years. Blood trails were not a problem with that combination.

Only when shooting cast bullets! If I’m shooting jacketed bullets, I choose a bullet that will perform at the velocities at which it will be used! memtb

I've had pretty good results with 129/130gr Accubonds in the 6.5's and never lost a game animal (out of maybe 20 animals), but also don't recall walking up on a hellacious blood trail like I've done with the .308/30-06/338-06, etc. Performance was always adequate and stuff died not too terribly far away, but the average sign/spoor was generally not as impressive. I suppose there are times when "impressive" helps (in my mind), and times when it doesn't really factor in. Weather and cover are on my mind when making that decision, and I was curious if others thought that way too.

We never caught one of those Partitions in a deer. I've wondered if the velocity (as moderated by the short barrel) wasn't enough to blow the mushroom off of the front of the bullet. We did not see the "pencil hole" exits I've seen attributed to Partitions.

To answer your question in the last sentence of the first paragraph, the answer is a loud YES. Especially under those conditions, the larger the exit hole, the better.

Perhaps I need to provide an addendum to my previous statement! Mt previous comment assumed that everyone knew that I want.....”no” demand” and exit wound! Bigger holes on both sides or ends of the animal is “always” a plus! memtb

Nope

I shoot them in the shoulders. No tracking I’ve never shot anything real big either. That might work on an elk or moose.

You can't kill them "deader".
Place the hole where it needs to be placed. Accuracy trumps size.
My 6.5 and 280 have not lost any.

I use a bland 308 for everything nowadays. don't give much thought anymore once I settled on a good combination for everything antelope-elk i shoot. 168 gr VLD does the job, really fast if I slip it just under the spine right behind the front shoulder. I quit worrying about what I'm shooting once I discovered how lethal it is. I only shoot on average 2-3 antelope, 2-3 deer and 1-2 elk a year though with it, and I usually loan it out for a few others to use as well. Bang flops are the norm with good shot placement, if something needs to be trailed it's very short and a rare occurrence. so In short, no I don't change my rifle or bullet because of conditions, I use the same combo for everything and it flat works. of course I had the same results with my 243 as well for over 20 years, I only went to the 308 by chance when I bought a suppressor and figured it was easier to load subsonic if I wanted than that old 243. still haven't loaded subsonic LOL, maybe someday.

Dead is dead, yes, but easily recovered and recovered after working for it are two different things. Asking if that matters is the point of the thread.

Colorado1135 brings up the "bland 308" and I've got to say that the 308 with 150-180gr cup/core bullets has been amazingly reliable in what I've seen in my 30 years in the hunting field. I've probably seen more game killed with it than anything else, which statistically should mean that I also saw the most instances of erratic performance with it, but that's not been the case. It just works with boring consistency and generally yields impressive results concerning tracking jobs. I have less experience with the 30-06, but have seen the same kind of effects when it is used.

A bullets sectional density is a far better predictor of how deep it will penetrate and how effective it will be. Unless you go up significantly in bullet weight then a bigger bore size is a handicap. As long as the bullet chosen has enough mass and is constructed well enough to penetrate on the game hunted. A 6.5/140 has about the same SD as a .308/180 and will give nearly identical penetration.

I tend to go for high shoulder shots when i get the chance. Given that I'm mostly using the 7mm08 and 6.5CM nowadays, I haven't noticed any difference given I match the right bullet for the right situation, with the aforementioned bullet placement, of course. I pay no attention to frontal area.

For 99% of my killin I consider velocity, cause that's how I hunt. Last thing I wanna do is skin a lrf, look at a chart, look at my dial, and dial.... I've found my 6ai the perfect run and gun to 450 or so, no guess work, just notch tags... Speed hurts shiit...

So far I've only killed two with my new 6.5 Creedmoor but blood trails were profuse and short for both. Load used was the Hornady American Whitetail with 129 gr. interlock.

The 129 Interlock out of my 260 Rem handloads is a surefire deer/pig killer, so it would have to be out of its ballistic twin too.

I have never thought much of that theory. I have seen poor blood trails out of 50 caliber bullets that turned everything in the chest into red soup and I have seen 22 and 24 caliber bullets really make a mess of a deer. Take the blood pressure to zero with the shot and Bambi is almost always inside of 60 yards from where it was shot. That does not mean that you get a nice blood trail to the dead deer because sometimes even horrific holes do not produce a decent blood trail and there just isn't a good way to predict whether you get a good blood trail or not. If I can't risk a deer running even 100 yards I shoot to drop them where they stand, which pretty much works the same with anything I use for deer. I would venture to say that my arrows produce dead deer close to where they stood when shot at least as predictably as any rifle I have used and they have a needle thin point on them for the most part. They also tend to produce a blood trail at least as well as bullets do. If you do a decent job of shooting them in the parts that they need to stay alive you have 95% of the problem solved, and that hold more universally true than anything else regardless of what you shoot them with.

I started hunting with a 243. Got tired of shooting deer and having them run off out of sight with a lame blood trail. It did kill them I just had to go find them.. I shoot a 30 or 35 now and see better results, less tracking better shorter blood trails. Most now drop out of the scope when I shoot. And I am shooting bigger older deer now than when I started. Others may have different results. Those are the results I have seen from my own shooting and the many many other people I have hunted with.

No, never had to, I shoot a 270.

interesting take. I cannot refute your logic on why you like the flat fast bullets, however I do disagree respectively with your regard to ranging and dialing. now I would bet my rifle against yours that at the ranges you suggested I could hit more consistently in the "ten ring" with no more than a few seconds worth of difference of reaction time. infact there are a couple respected members of this forum who have seen me guestimate the range on a loping coyote, exit the vehicle, dial the range, deploy bipod and put a round in about a second +/- a few tenths. all this is estimated of course because we weren't running a stopwatch, however I believe it was Bob cape or EH76 who said he spotted the yote, looked back at me, saw I had seen it and stop, when he swung his binos back to the coyote he saw it drop. I'm not one to boast my point is dialing isn't necessarily slow, especially when ranges are moderate like you describe. Kamo Gari was sitting next to me and can attest to the shot as well.

This ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

It's rare that I 'would' have time to LRF + check chart + twist turrets BEFORE aim+shoot.

Out to 400 yds I DON'T hold OVER hair. Fast, Flat, Good Bullet.
For the record I M E --- 270 (280), 284 W handload, 7mm RM, 30-06 handload, 300 WM

Jerry

I’ve been known to be a stunt shooter too.

We’re just too slow Jerry!!! 🤣

Like .35 Remington just fine.

Never concerned about it as long as it is a .284 or larger Especially partial to short action cartridges that start with a "3".

If you were gonna get shot at equal velocity square in the chest would you choose a bb or a baseball. Say 2700 FPS. Ed k

I used to look at that chambering as an antique, but realized a few years ago that my assumptions were wrong. I've also seen the effects of .35cal spitzers at .358win speeds. Most everything that leaves the scene of a solid hit is easy to trail up. Same goes for .338 bullets loaded at .338-06 speeds.

We have a primitive weapons season down here that allows for use of single-shot rifles in chamberings above .35cal. I've carried a single shot CVA Whelen (loaded down) and a .444 Marlin Handi-rifle on nasty days, even during regular season. Both were reliable when it came to good blood trails. In my teens and twenties I'd have laughed at the notion of anything under 3,000fps being such a good killer.

You eventually get to a point where it doesn't matter, say a baseball or a softball at 2700 fps.

Maybe so ..

ATST, over the years I've had instanceS where there was NOT time to aim & shoot ! ! ! I will NOT hamstring myself by having to take UNnecessary steps.

* NOTE * I don't hunt wide open territory where game may be seen/shot 400 +++++ yds.


Jerry

no doubt! depending on your equipment so heavily I bet a lot of shots seem like stunts.

Been using 7mm 140 grain ABs exclusively for a few years now - they kill fine, but they seem to have a narrow mushroom, and don't leave nearly as reliable blood train as the 30 cal 180 Corelokts I grew up using on deer. Also used 6mm 95 grain BTs a lot, and they normally left a good blood trail.

Some of the areas I hunt are the same swampy/thicket junk that Jpro mentions. A full grown Brangus bull could lay down and go unseen at 20 feet. A broadside high shoulder or CNS shot isn’t always in the cards.
I like a “tennis ball” size exit hole.

I hunt very thick cedar swamp in Michigan. We've had a few nightmare tracking cases over a lifetime, and I've opted now more for my 303, 338 Fed., or 358 Win. A local up there saw one deer shot I took using the 303. His comment was, "that gun doesn't knock them over, it picks them up and throws them down!" I thought that was pretty funny, but since the switch nothing has managed to scramble out of sight.

And big fat round noses that open about as easy as a banana, and cheap to boot.

No doubt a bigger hole makes a difference in a certain percentage of cases...but measuring it while weeding out all the other variables...good luck. Someone can always quote exceptions, but when it comes to relying on following blood for longer than you expected, thoughts switch to more interior destruction and an accommodating hole.

That is a bullet function more than a caliber function...

fwiw...guys pounding the drum over this or that caliber is pretty much moot if he has improved as a killer over a few decades of field experience, and he pays particular attention to matching the bullet to the job.

Any size object hitting you in the chest at 2700 fps will kill you. The BB might give you time to call your wife and kids to say goodbye.

It will also give a game animal to reach the deepest canyon and thickest brush around. Either dead right there or at least a hell of a blood trail helps in this situation. Ed k

I've had exit holes plug up when the insides were soup. In a few cases I had almost no blood trail from Barnes X, XLC and an ACP solid copper HP, all out of a .257 Roberts and .25-06. I'm of the opinion at this point that a slightly bigger exit is more desirable, than than I get with "tougher" bullets. It's interesting to try new bullets but they're all compared to the Nosler Partion. They shed the front and have enough to exit leaving a hole. Regardless of what bullet you choose, it needs to expand enough to do real damage to the internals, and carry enough mass to exit in most cases. Bullets need to match cartridge performance.

I've taken more whitetails with RN bullets than any other, no matter whether the cartridge was a .308, .338 WM or .35 Whelen. I used 180gr. RN in .308, 275gr. RN in the .338 and .200gr. RN in the Whelen. Most deer DRT and those that didn't only made it 30-40yds. with a good blood trail. Only managed to recover the 200gr. RN bullet from the Whelen that accounted for last season's whitetail, it was perfectly mushroomed and retained 66% of its original weight.

Not as much as I used to, due to vast improvements in bullet technology! That said, I will continue to use my old, “tried and true” “battle (hunt) tested”....375 cal. (.375 AI). Needed or not....it simply works! memtb

i got tired of blood trails and looking for dead bucks have not had that problem in the last 20 years anymore i use bigger cartridges and my favorite is a 257 Weatherby Mag. the bucks i shoot now either out west or in northern Minnesota only go one direction now straight down and dead. speed and power kills bucks alot faster,no more little cartridges for me.

I too, used a 270 for most of my deer kills.....a 270 grainer memtb

Dead is dead, but imo, there is no doubt that larger calibers have provided better blood trails and the game seems to travel a bit less. The damage done is also very obvious, the larger calibers providing more of it when I perform my "autopsy". I have seen more consistent drt's with larger caliber rifles also. Ymmv.

While I’ve killed animals with smaller, faster bullets, I still prefer a bullet with a big meplat. Anyone who has shot something with one knows the difference.

For years, my main deer battery consisted of a 30-06 and a 35 Whelen. I finally retired the Whelenizer, because it wasn't any more devastating than the 30-06. It cost more to run, and it had demonstrably more recoil, but it did not kill deer any better.

If we need a quick function test at deer camp, there is a small pond out about 150 yards from the back of the house. If you aim for the far edge, you get a nice fountain of water and the bullet ends up going into the muddy bank on the other side. We've sent all sorts of stuff out there.

This is not a scientific test of deer-killing ability, but you should see the plumes we send up. 30-06 165 grain vs 35 Whelen 200 grain? The 30-06 wins. 30-06 165 grain vs. 150 grain? It's hard to tell. 300 Win Mag vs. 30-06? The 300 Win Mag sends up a serious plume-- biggest I've seen.

. . . at least until a few weeks ago. I was sighting in my Buddy's Ruger Model 44 Carbine. Yikes! You talk about a geyser! This was with a less-than-MAX load of H110.

Say what you will, but the most devasting rounds I've ever seen at close range were Remmie 12 GA Sluggers-- never saw a deer escape with a round to the chest.

The only deer I ever saw picked up and thrown by a hit? 54 Hawken on a small doe at 60 yards.

To answer the Op's question: Yes, but if the only shot you will take is a broadside shoulder shot almost any caliber with a decent bullet will suffice, however if your target is trophy Whitetails and you might if your lucky get only one glimpse of the buck you have been hunting for 2 weeks a .30 cal running a mono bullet at 3000+ fps Cant be beat, he will be poleaxed on the spot from any shot angle you are presented with at reasonable ranges 👍.......Good hunting ....Hb

In truth, a good 30-06 load is a slobberknocker of a deer round. I consider the .30cal stuff to actually be a little overkill on deer and find some additional comfort in those rounds when you need a hole that bleeds. My experience with the .338 stuff at the same speeds was another notch higher in damage/trauma. Slower-moving .35cal loads from the Whelen and 35Rem have been about like the 30-06 in my experience, which is to say, "rather reliable", depending on the range of the animal and bullet construction. The FTX stuff in 35Rem and 444Marlin is not moving that fast, but it is softly-constructed and does hurt a 100-200lb deer.

I snagged this terrible-quality cell phone pic years ago when I was hunting a 444 Handi Rifle with the FTX. A lung exit would often paint the trees on a death run.

Nice pic Jpro! It looks like total devastation 👍....Hb

I gave this a lot of thought and to be honest I guess I don't care.



I'm pretty sure frontal area doesn't matter much with this one anyway.


Flat, round, pointed, I DGAS


And there's a reason I use to carry 5 extra barrels.

Frontal area trumps all for me.

I’ve never really seen much of a difference, other than my .25-‘06, 6.5x.284, .270 Win, .270 Roy, .284 Win and 7mm Roy never provided me with a tracking job. Deer or elk.

I now have three animals taken with the 6.5 Creedmoor, all DRT from modern, rapidly-expanding bullets. This newfangled combination is very impressive.

Others like .260, 7-08, .308, .30-06, .300 Roy, .338 Federal and .340 Roy always dropped stuff either DRT or they fell within sight of where they were hit.

Only the .338 Win Mag has ever left me with “extended” tracking and both those times were devastating hits with large exit wounds. I thought I was going to lose one of those bulls but half a day of tracking finally found him a very long way from where he was hit. Both his shoulders were smashed and his lungs were both hit so he was definitely killed by the shot (250gr Nosler Partition), but he made it a long way. I suppose that larger exit from the .338 slug helped with tracking because we found him. I still can’t help but think if I’d hit that bull exactly the same way with my 6.5x284 or .270 Wby he would have dropped in his tracks, though. I’m still glad I had the larger exit wound given the circumstances.

Having hunted the west (wet) coast jungles a bunch I tend to agree with you. All my experience with one exception is 30 caliber or less though and being a behind the shoulder shooter (when given the choice!) I have experienced recoveries that were tougher than others. I have no experience with anything sub 25 caliber, and that is not likely to change soon.
Consideration is being given to a 30+ caliber, loaded moderately for deer, for most of my timber hunting, due to hopefully a better blood trail. I believe it was JJHack that said he much prefers a (or at least) 30 caliber to anything smaller for his african adventures, due to a more reliable blood trail (and even more important in a herd animal where it could get very confusing).
All this is assuming the bullet chosen is appropriate for the task.

When I read the first post here, those were my experiences as well. Which is why I favor 30 cal and above when I'm serious about what I'm after. Yes dead is dead is dead, and you can theorize and crunch all kinds of numbers, but I trust my experience which is MY real world observations of performance not numbers on paper. Now where is that 35 Whelen I cleaned the other day, I put here someplace.

P.S. In keeping with my above post, A 257 weatherby makes a good coyote rifle if you're just thinning them out and not after fur!!! BBbbaaaahahahahahaha

So DD, what’s the story on the gun barrel? I assume it’s a mini-gun barrel that took a round?

It was a mini that got hit with an AK round. Still in touch with the fella that was my observer that day and he still carries a jacket fragment in the side of his left hand. 3 souvenirs with one shot that day.

Good story and a great souvenir to back it up 😊

I shoot a 6.8 SPC 110 gr Barnes TTSX or Sierra Pro Hunter.

I've been using a CVA single shot chambered in 35 Remington during primitive arms season for awhile and it never fails to satisfy. Hogs and deer hate it.

I've done a lot of range work and culling recently and note that I shoot my supressed 243 much better and that frontal area does not matter much with that level of precision and frequency of opportunity where passing on a shot is just less to carry.

When I travel away to hunt for elusive game in rough terrain with rare and fleeting shot opportunities I use my 7-08. At no point after I've made a shot in low light in the woods do I think to myself "if only I'd used my 243"

Well my 444 marlin's "frontal area" seems to make some difference over my 7x57, with larger entrance and exit holes anyway.

Yes I've had these thoughts, especially when hunting narrow long right of way cuts through thick timber or brush. I think it is just pre hunt anxiety mostly, because when you see an exit wound on a deer, can you tell what caliber it was killed with? I wouldn't want to bet much on getting this right, because I've seen some large exits from a .270 Speer hotcor and some small exits from a 7mm accubond and .300 TSX.

I personally would want to choose a "deer" bullet and try to pay close attention to exact location where critter was at last sighting with any caliber because there may not be any blood on the ground at beginning of death sprint.

Good point on trying to mentally mark the location of the animal before the shot. It's a sensible tactic, when there is time to do so.

I'm having another thought about reasons to not use small calibers in bad weather, or thick and heavy cover.

Imagine you and your buddies are back at camp cooking dinner after a cold misty day. The last man comes in after dark and before you have eaten, and says hey everybody will you help me look for a wounded deer, I seen him buck at the shot but can't find him?
Are your thoughts likely to be more enthusiastic toward spending a couple of hours in wet brush with a flash light if the hunter used a .243 or a .308?

Our Mississippi lease is on paper company land. We have food plots surrounded by thick planted pines and hardwood creek bottoms. Last year I shot two does on consecutive days from the same plot. Both were shot while crossing in the woods behind the food plot at a distance of 130-40 yards.

The first with a 25-06 loaded with Hornady 117gr. BTSP at approx. 3000 fps. The bullet impacted the near shoulder and exited behind the off side shoulder. The second was with a 35 Whelen loaded with Hornady 200gr. SP at approximately 2700 fps. That shot impacted behind the near shoulder and exited the offside shoulder. At the shot both jumped and kicked then took off running before piling up within 50 yards. Both blood trails were easy to follow and you could not have said which bullet produced the better trail. In that instance I saw no advantage to either velocity or bullet frontal area.

That being said I'm a product of a generation that places more trust in a bigger bullet. I will be using a .243 this year and have had success with it before but I will be using it on morning stands where I have daylight to recover the deer or hog.

I found the 375 was particularly emphatic in killin deer.

Mine has always been effective....works on Antelope also! I’ve observed that if you start with a larger diameter bullet, and push it pretty fast.....it gains substantial “frontal area”! memtb

Used to, 358 pills were my benchmark on critters. From 35 rem cast wfngc, to 180-225 CCs at 358 speeds. As the years have gone by, bullets have gotten better and better, and I can see identical results with anything 6mm-30, with the right bullets at the right velocities, as I used to want a 35-something for. Now, I load a 357 max spiffy, with both cast and CC, but I’ve pretty much gotten out of the 35s otherwise. A good 277-30 bullet seems to get to the same place of balanced performance just fine, and the 6-6.5s ain’t far behind. Just anecdotal according to me. LOL

Interesting that you mention the 243 which has been the cartridge that has caused me to do more after dark tracking than all other cartridges combined and I rarely hunt deer with one!

Under old expectations, it mattered more which cartridge. Now, it’d probably be smarter to ask “What bullet?”

I like a bullet to exit. Most times it doesnt matter, but knowing I will get a decent sized exit hole is really important sometimes. Ive used a .243a fair bit and am underwhelmed with it. Much prefer a .308. Like my .350 even better. Shots still have to be in the right place, but the idea that I ll get at minimum a .358 sized exit is reassuring to me.

I've carried a single shot CVA Whelen (loaded down) and a .444 Marlin Handi-rifle on nasty days, even during regular season. Both were reliable when it came to good blood trails.

I was just going to suggest something like that! I grew up with a 30-30 in Se Texas Big Thicket. It worked swell with the 150 corlokts. Later on I used a little Marlin 1894 44 mag and it left big blood trails. Two friends of mine glommed onto the Marlin 444 and 1895 45-70. But, the worst was guys shooting bucks and hogs too far away with 12ga and buckshot. 00 is .30 cal, but those left tiny entrance holes, no blood, well, a few drops. I walked up on many soured, wasted deer and hogs on our lease.