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#13789632 - 05/03/19 Re: ANZAC DAY [Re: Castle_Rock]  
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CarlsenHighway Offline
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Port Chalmers, New Zealand
Yes, Morant was an Englishman. And a murderous one too.

It was different then though - NZ and Aus were still very much part of England and its empire and kept a colonial outlook. And if you weren't English or Scottish then often your parents were. The distinction was not what it is today - but, the ANZAC's in WW1 were the beginning of a proper national consciousness that hadn't happened prior. The patriotism of that war, sentimental or contrived or not, elevated the countries self respect.
You drive around the little country towns in NZ, and I imagine it is the same in Australia, and the names of the dead on war memorials are two or three times the number of the second world war.


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#13801309 - 05/07/19 Re: ANZAC DAY [Re: Castle_Rock]  
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The legal debate concerning Morant and his convicted BVC regiment cohorts continues.

Its said Morant had earlier been reprimanded for bringing in Boer prisoners and an Aus military lawyer
has( from British archives) what he believes is supporting evidence of their original defence argument that
they were simply following orders 'not to take prisoners in the Spelonken'

The BVC were an irregular unconventional tactic mounted guerrilla force formed to take on the guerrilla
tactic Boers. The order they received not to take prisoners is alleged to be supported by archived transcripts
of British parliamentary debate over concerns for having such an approach.

The claim is that they [Morant*, Handcock* and Witton] were found guilty and executed* in an act of expediency
to facilitate the peace talks, as there was also worry on the British side Germany may decide to enter the conflict.

Thus in the big picture/grand scheme of things, it made practical sense to throw a few of ones own pawns
under the bus?

...forward to 1982 Falklands War, British Paras on their advance through Argentinian defensive positions
didn't have the capacity to cater for POW , so the did the pragmatic and executed them.
....don't know of any British soldiers that have faced trial for those actions.



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#13804712 - 05/08/19 Re: ANZAC DAY [Re: Castle_Rock]  
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CarlsenHighway Offline
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Morant was indeed murderous regardless of his motivation, and the political issue at the time was over English control of Australian troops, which was unpopular at home.
There is no real doubt that Morant killed those people, although popular legend today is that he was somehow railroaded and executed as an innocent man. (As far as I can tell mostly based on the poetry he wrote while waiting in prison, of all things.)
I don't recall any defence being mounted regarding "following orders" at the time, but its a long time since I read about the trial. (And frankly, he would, and still should have, been shot with that defence I think.)

Do you have a source for the executing of Argentine prisoners in the Falklands?

Last edited by CarlsenHighway; 05/08/19.

"A person that carries a cat home by the tail will receive information that will always be useful to him." Mark Twain
#13804830 - 05/09/19 Re: ANZAC DAY [Re: CarlsenHighway]  
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Originally Posted by CarlsenHighway


.. although popular legend today is that he was somehow railroaded and executed as an innocent man....

I don't recall any defence being mounted regarding "following orders" at the time,...



The argument I've always heard put forward is that they were wrongly [unfairly] convicted as scapegoats for the empire,
not that they didn't do it.

https://www.awm.gov.au/about/our-work/publications/wartime/18/villains-or-victims

" All parties agree – even Morant and Handcock admitted it – that the men shot the prisoners. The main issue concerns the justice
of the convictions and the sentences. ...

...They admitted shooting 12 Boer prisoners, but claimed they had received orders to take no prisoners."



Originally Posted by CarlsenHighway


Do you have a source for the executing of Argentine prisoners in the Falklands?


NCO Corporal Vincent Bramley, 3rd Battalion, Parachute Regiment...battle of Mount Longdon.

described how, after the mountain was won, wounded and captured Argentines were arbritarily bayoneted and shot.
He suggests that some of the dead were mutilated, their ears cut off as trophies.

"....A group of our guys had assembled some Argie prisoners on a cliff above where we had dug a body pit for their dead.
Now, with the battle over, they were shooting prisoners and toppling them down to be buried. It was an outrage and senior officers
stepped in immediately before the executions could get out of hand. But in the cauldron of emotions after the battle they decided
not to take further action. Court martials were the last thing we needed."

Events described have been confirmed by other paratroopers.

British Officers who served at the Falklands and then became career politicians seemed to demonstrate reluctance in wanting
the MOD to conduct an inquiry concerning such claims by other veterans of the conflict.

It gets more murky and politically complicated when claims include the capture and execution of foreign mercenaries which were
alleged to include soldier of fortune Americans.


-Bulletproof and Waterproof don't mean Idiotproof.
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