"All that the South has ever desired was that the Union, as established by our forefathers, should be preserved, and that the government, as originally organized, should be administered in purity and truth." – Robert E. Lee
There has to be a difference between releasing a fish that has been fought to near exhaustion and has hook wounds and dropping fingerlings from a plane. I'd imagine (can't prove, obviously) that the fingerlings are less stressed being in a tank (a by now familiar environment to them) until the moment the bottom drops out than the mature stream trout having been caught and fought. And that doesn't even cover the protective slime layer damage on the caught fish.
Rocky, I've read back and forth arguments on damage to the air bladder to a trout that is "tossed" back into the water. If true, then releasing from altitude would be murder!
"All that the South has ever desired was that the Union, as established by our forefathers, should be preserved, and that the government, as originally organized, should be administered in purity and truth." – Robert E. Lee
Seems weird at first, but obviously a few spotters could confirm mortality rates and evidently its low or zero as mentioned, Weird that you need to be at least 100 feet up. I'd have thought lower at first thought...
Jeff
We can keep Larry Root and all his idiotic blabber and user names on here, but we can't get Ralph back..... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over....
Former employee of mine just got hired on by Utah, and this is part of what he does.
Virtually no mortality. Fingerlings aren't that heavy, so they never gain that much speed. Those lakes are often pretty marginal for winter survival because they are iced over so long. 7, 8 months of ice cover and no food is no an ideal environment for fish. Second, though human pressure is usually rather low, there's lots of other predation in high lakes. One eagle or osprey will take the population down to near zero if they nest nearby.
Whirling disease is really a non issue for alpine lakes. Very few are infected, and if they are, whirling disease on the west slope is much less problematic on the west slopes than on the east slopes of the Rockies. We think it has something to do with the species of tubifex worms that act as intermediate host to the parasite not being as susceptible.
So.....very few people fish for them and those that don't die off in the winter are eaten by predators yet we keep restocking them.
Your tax dollars at work.
Most Wildlife Divisions in the West are run solely on revenue generated by license sales and monies from the Pittman Robertson act.
I worked that project on both ends, both loading the plane and on the lake that was being stocked. We were out in a boat on the lake as it was being stocked and we saw very few dead fry. On reading on the pilot's website my old manager states that 250ft is the magic height. I knew it was at least 100ft, couldn't remember for sure as its been a while. I do remember that they tried dropping them from about 20ft and almost all of them died from hitting the water at about 140mph. Dropping them from higher up allows for the fish to get orientated head first (think of a high diver going in like they should vs a belly flop) and it isn't too high up that their gills dry out on the way down. He states that its at least 98% survival doing it this way, stocking 10 million fry a year into that particular lake.
Matter of fact they are probably doing these transports right now, if the ice is off the lake. The plane takes off of the Richardson Highway just north of Paxson.
Then it's hard to reconcile the comments above about there being virtually no mortality from air drops, I'd think.
Size matters.
Walked off the end of the deck late one night - about 2 feet to the ground. Easter actually. Laying there, after ruminating on how incredibly stupid that was, all I could think of was my version of my favorite commercial. "Help, I've fallen and I can't get up. And the cats are eating me!"
Anyway, it took me a good three weeks before my rib muscles didn't spasm if I moved the wrong way from what as a kid would've been a fun leap.
At least I've gotten my stupid stunt of the year out of the way.
The key elements in human thinking are not numbers but labels of fuzzy sets. -- L. Zadeh
Good info! I owe you a beer or coffee or such one of these days. I"d LOVE to see that in action, dropping the fish, but while Paxson is usually close, I'm in Talkeetna for the summer, learning how to catch all these fish for folks. Not difficult, just a few things are a hair different than at home.
We can keep Larry Root and all his idiotic blabber and user names on here, but we can't get Ralph back..... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over....
Former employee of mine just got hired on by Utah, and this is part of what he does.
Virtually no mortality. Fingerlings aren't that heavy, so they never gain that much speed. Those lakes are often pretty marginal for winter survival because they are iced over so long. 7, 8 months of ice cover and no food is no an ideal environment for fish. Second, though human pressure is usually rather low, there's lots of other predation in high lakes. One eagle or osprey will take the population down to near zero if they nest nearby.
Whirling disease is really a non issue for alpine lakes. Very few are infected, and if they are, whirling disease on the west slope is much less problematic on the west slopes than on the east slopes of the Rockies. We think it has something to do with the species of tubifex worms that act as intermediate host to the parasite not being as susceptible.
So.....very few people fish for them and those that don't die off in the winter are eaten by predators yet we keep restocking them.
Your tax dollars at work.
Most Wildlife Divisions in the West are run solely on revenue generated by license sales and monies from the Pittman Robertson act.
"Revenue"...."Taxes".....semantics, call it what you like but what Dutch describes (and I believe him) is clearly a waste of money collected from the public.....period.
I worked that project on both ends, both loading the plane and on the lake that was being stocked. We were out in a boat on the lake as it was being stocked and we saw very few dead fry. On reading on the pilot's website my old manager states that 250ft is the magic height. I knew it was at least 100ft, couldn't remember for sure as its been a while. I do remember that they tried dropping them from about 20ft and almost all of them died from hitting the water at about 140mph. Dropping them from higher up allows for the fish to get orientated head first (think of a high diver going in like they should vs a belly flop) and it isn't too high up that their gills dry out on the way down. He states that its at least 98% survival doing it this way, stocking 10 million fry a year into that particular lake.
They need the altitude to get away from the water. They maintain drop speed until they get away from the falling mass. That also allows them to orient, which is not something the fish do, but rather it is how drag orients them. Higher drops either dry the gills or allow them to fall too fast.
Mark Begich, Joaquin Jackson, and Heller resistance... Three huge reasons to worry about the NRA.
Former employee of mine just got hired on by Utah, and this is part of what he does.
Virtually no mortality. Fingerlings aren't that heavy, so they never gain that much speed. Those lakes are often pretty marginal for winter survival because they are iced over so long. 7, 8 months of ice cover and no food is no an ideal environment for fish. Second, though human pressure is usually rather low, there's lots of other predation in high lakes. One eagle or osprey will take the population down to near zero if they nest nearby.
Whirling disease is really a non issue for alpine lakes. Very few are infected, and if they are, whirling disease on the west slope is much less problematic on the west slopes than on the east slopes of the Rockies. We think it has something to do with the species of tubifex worms that act as intermediate host to the parasite not being as susceptible.
The eagle and osprey predation you describe is more than a bit dramatic. It would have to be a mighty small and shallow pond for there to be any real effect from a single predator. There is also the point where predators quickly clean up the easy stuff and then predation falls off sharply... and long before "near zero."
Mark Begich, Joaquin Jackson, and Heller resistance... Three huge reasons to worry about the NRA.
Former employee of mine just got hired on by Utah, and this is part of what he does.
Virtually no mortality. Fingerlings aren't that heavy, so they never gain that much speed. Those lakes are often pretty marginal for winter survival because they are iced over so long. 7, 8 months of ice cover and no food is no an ideal environment for fish. Second, though human pressure is usually rather low, there's lots of other predation in high lakes. One eagle or osprey will take the population down to near zero if they nest nearby.
Whirling disease is really a non issue for alpine lakes. Very few are infected, and if they are, whirling disease on the west slope is much less problematic on the west slopes than on the east slopes of the Rockies. We think it has something to do with the species of tubifex worms that act as intermediate host to the parasite not being as susceptible.
The eagle and osprey predation you describe is more than a bit dramatic. It would have to be a mighty small and shallow pond for there to be any real effect from a single predator. There is also the point where predators quickly clean up the easy stuff and then predation falls off sharply... and long before "near zero."
Now, now you are arguing about stuff that is in my baliwick..... and you are flat out wrong. I spent 16 years stocking private ponds and helping customers deal with predation. If an osprey nests within a mile or two of a stocked pond, that pond will be wiped out by at least 90%. No exceptions. I had one pond I stocked several times a year because the owner enjoyed watching the eagles and osprey catch their breakfast. Hey, it takes all kinds, and it payed the same...... I once dropped a bunch of fish and an osprey swooped in while the fish were still dis-oriented and grabbed a fish in each claw...... That customer was not amused.
Yes, in an environment with a varied natural terrain, like a like with shoals, vegetation, structure (fallen trees, rocks, etc), you would be right. There's a balance between predators and prey.
In many alpine lakes, there's no such environment. These are typically cirque lakes, typically do not have varied terrain, vegetation, or structure. Trout are vulnerable because they'll come to the surface to feed on insects. Add to that that these are naive fish, in an unfamiliar environment and not used to evading predators, and things don't end well.
As far as the economics, the people that are attracted to these lakes are usually out of staters, so they pay higher license fees and spend well in local eateries and lodging establishments. It makes very good sense to cater to these high end customers with a few fish. 99% of them catch and release anyway. The air drops are dramatic, but many are stocked by volunteers and back packs with fish in ice water. Those smaller fish only cost maybe a dime, and the delivery is just about free......
