I read a lot of old historical accounts of life back in the mountain man days and the written diaries of the early settlers along with native American history in sometimes violent settling of the western lands of the future USA.
In a few of the tomes I've read there has been a passing mention of a species of mule deer that was about a third bigger than the size of current day mule deer and double the size of a whitetail. I've also read Indian legends of massive mule deer that were nearly as big as a mature elk.
I'm currently reading the actual diary of Lewis and Clark. Clark mentions the giant mule deer. 8' tall including horns.
They were probably not hunted as hard as they currently are. A mature Northern Mule Deer can get pretty large if left unmolested, I seriously doubt they were shot out or exist out there although ScenarShooter and JGRaider and a few others here are trying very hard to disprove that.
I would give Lewis & Clark the benefit of any doubt. The big ones are the first to go...and the gene pool is diminished.
An older mule deer buck with 200" of high rack above his ears is an incredibly impressive animal. I don't know how tall they can get at horn height, but they are to me, an awesome critter.
Morewood; Top of the morning to you sir, I trust all is well in your world.
While I am far from anything resembling an expert on mulies, they've fascinated me since I saw the first ones when I moved here to BC the first time in '81.
In one of his fine books, John Barsness has a photo of a buck he killed way up the Rockies near the medicine line. It's positively huge in body, way, way bigger than anything I've seen on the hoof in BC, Alberta or Saskatchewan in the last nearly 40 years.
There are, in my experience anyway, quite a bit of difference in both body and antler size even regionally out here, for instance on the drier west side of the valley where we live, a first rack mulie would average 10-15lbs less carcass weight than ones taken from the timber on the wetter east side.
Anyone I've known who killed a really big bodied mulie invariably took it on the east side - or a couple valleys west where it's wetter again.
Just a few random thoughts this morning on your query and not much more. I am hopeful that some true experts chime in this morning - as mentioned Scenar hunts the big prairie strain mulies and JG chases some big bodied desert strains.
All the best to you as we head into warmer weather.
Dwayne
Last edited by BC30cal; 05/28/19. Reason: added for clarity - hopefully
I'm currently reading the actual diary of Lewis and Clark. Clark mentions the giant mule deer. 8' tall including horns.
Legend or fact?
FACT: I have NEVER seen a deer with horns. Antlers YES, horns NO.
James Pepper: There's no law west of Dodge and no God west of the Pecos. Right, Mr. Chisum? John Chisum: Wrong, Mr. Pepper. Because no matter where people go, sooner or later there's the law. And sooner or later they find God's already been there.
Would appreciate the date of that Lewis & Clark notation. I have read the Journals a few times for mule deer references, and cannot recall running across that.
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.” John Steinbeck
I'm currently reading the actual diary of Lewis and Clark. Clark mentions the giant mule deer. 8' tall including horns.
Legend or fact?
FACT: I have NEVER seen a deer with horns. Antlers YES, horns NO.
You are of course absolutely correct. Thank you for your valuable contribution.
sheesh
Me and everyone in my circles call so horns too, guess we're just a buncha country bumpkins.... Grin
Ping pong balls for the win. Once you've wrestled everything else in life is easy. Dan Gable I keep my circle small, I’d rather have 4 quarters than 100 pennies.
Back in the early 80s a friend shot a monster bodied Mule Deer. Its head was leaning against the front of the 8' bed pickup it was in and it's tail end was resting against the tailgate. People who initially saw it thought it was an elk even though the antlers/horns weren't much. It was over 9 years old and shot in the Rocky Mountain Front of MT. It took two strong guys to move it. I have never seen one with a bigger body.
Me and everyone in my circles call so horns too, guess we're just a buncha country bumpkins.... Grin
Me and my buds do too Jud.
Johnny, out West we only count one side of the horns, too. Probably because counting past 5 would require a diploma. 😎
🤣🤣that’s why we call 6 point elk, 4 point with doubles!!!
Ping pong balls for the win. Once you've wrestled everything else in life is easy. Dan Gable I keep my circle small, I’d rather have 4 quarters than 100 pennies.
Local legend, in parts of NM, claim that the truly old/mature/smart mule deer have a "stone in their heart". I've talked to locals, who swear, they've cut open the heart....and found the stone, inside! Then they saved the stone, and threw the horns away!
Yes.....horns. Anything that grows out of the head, is a horn. Antlers are for making chandeliers and for doggie chew toys!
Western count = 1 side.
Eastern count = both sides.
Texan count = what they would of been next year!
We all learn things differently, just depends where your from.....and the people that taught you!
Ping pong balls for the win. Once you've wrestled everything else in life is easy. Dan Gable I keep my circle small, I’d rather have 4 quarters than 100 pennies.
We don’t count eyeguards either, I know even in Idaho they count em.
Ping pong balls for the win. Once you've wrestled everything else in life is easy. Dan Gable I keep my circle small, I’d rather have 4 quarters than 100 pennies.
Big mule deer bucks are a particular interest of mine, when I say big I mean in horn mass. They live up where I like to be on the mountain and have killed them in the vicinity of mountain goats. I would love to hunt Desert Mulies one day and is on my bucket list. Anyone remember a guy named Kirk Darner? This was from the 70's or 80's, I believe he lived in Colorado. His bucks were often pictured in Outdoor Life etc. Massive, wide , heavy B&C bucks.Just wondering
Big mule deer bucks are a particular interest of mine, when I say big I mean in horn mass. They live up where I like to be on the mountain and have killed them in the vicinity of mountain goats. I would love to hunt Desert Mulies one day and is on my bucket list. Anyone remember a guy named Kirk Darner? This was from the 70's or 80's, I believe he lived in Colorado. His bucks were often pictured in Outdoor Life etc. Massive, wide , heavy B&C bucks.Just wondering
Dunno if he was as much a poacher, as a lying scammer. Bought horns claiming he killed em etc....
Ping pong balls for the win. Once you've wrestled everything else in life is easy. Dan Gable I keep my circle small, I’d rather have 4 quarters than 100 pennies.
Ping pong balls for the win. Once you've wrestled everything else in life is easy. Dan Gable I keep my circle small, I’d rather have 4 quarters than 100 pennies.
Wonder if he was always that way or if it was something that developed to feed his ego after he'd achieved a bit of stardom in the hunting community?
Dunno remember as a kid full page advertisements of darner and a rem 700 bdl 7 mag, seen him at sportsman shows etc..
Ping pong balls for the win. Once you've wrestled everything else in life is easy. Dan Gable I keep my circle small, I’d rather have 4 quarters than 100 pennies.
I believe that Darner worked for the Dept of Wildlife in CO, or in some State capacity, and was always in the field. He did know a lot about big mule deer because he was around them every day. The guy I hunted in Sonora, MX with actually was involved in the Darner investigations, actively, and he told me all about it. I had been a big Darner believer and was pretty stunned actually. Turns out Darner either shot most all of those big bucks out of season, or it was even proven he bought some of those antlers from very old timers that killed monster bucks back in the 30's and '40's when there were virtually no pictures. As luck would have it there was an old pic or two of some massive bucks killed by these old timers that Darner wound up with, mounted on new capes, and claimed he killed them. He was stripped of all of his numerous B&C entries because of his poaching and lying. His desire for fame and fortune got the best of him.
It is irrelevant what you think. What matters is the TRUTH.
I believe that Darner worked for the Dept of Wildlife in CO, or in some State capacity, and was always in the field. He did know a lot about big mule deer because he was around them every day. The guy I hunted in Sonora, MX with actually was involved in the Darner investigations, actively, and he told me all about it. I had been a big Darner believer and was pretty stunned actually. Turns out Darner either shot most all of those big bucks out of season, or it was even proven he bought some of those antlers from very old timers that killed monster bucks back in the 30's and '40's when there were virtually no pictures. As luck would have it there was an old pic or two of some massive bucks killed by these old timers that Darner wound up with, mounted on new capes, and claimed he killed them. He was stripped of all of his numerous B&C entries because of his poaching and lying. His desire for fame and fortune got the best of him.
I remember reading about him as a kid, in fact I met him at a sportsmans show back in the late 70's or early 80's maybe. Anyway, I went up to his display and bought his book and had him sign it. Its says, To Frank "Good luck hunting" Kirt Darner. Guess it takes more than good luck to kill all those big bucks Its a pretty good book though for when it was written.
"Rather hunt Mule deer than anything else" "Team 7MM-08"
Did a quick search and not too much information, more on whitetails than muley's. Both have had verified weights of of over 430-60 lbs. field dressed so a live weight of over 500 lbs. which I can't even imagine. There are reports of huge Merriams elk but hard to verify and unless you go back to fossil records of Irish elk not much to prove the monster size stories.
I would bet there is some confusion in the old accounts with elk and moose but who knows.
"When you disarm the people, you commence to offend them and show that you distrust them either through cowardice or lack of confidence, and both of these opinions generate hatred." Niccolo Machiavelli
We've been hunting our area for 16 years now, and fortunately have taken quite a few big bodied bucks. Not sure why the mature bucks get so big bodied in this arid environment, when the closest bucks to the West (Guadalupe's NM), and Southwest (Trans Pecos), and South of here the mule deer aren't nearly as big. Must be a genetics and food thing. Anyway, we used to weigh most of the really big bucks we killed before we gutted them when possible, and many weighed a bit over 300lbs. They looked alot like this guy.......
It is irrelevant what you think. What matters is the TRUTH.
Ping pong balls for the win. Once you've wrestled everything else in life is easy. Dan Gable I keep my circle small, I’d rather have 4 quarters than 100 pennies.
I believe that Darner worked for the Dept of Wildlife in CO, or in some State capacity, and was always in the field. He did know a lot about big mule deer because he was around them every day. The guy I hunted in Sonora, MX with actually was involved in the Darner investigations, actively, and he told me all about it. I had been a big Darner believer and was pretty stunned actually. Turns out Darner either shot most all of those big bucks out of season, or it was even proven he bought some of those antlers from very old timers that killed monster bucks back in the 30's and '40's when there were virtually no pictures. As luck would have it there was an old pic or two of some massive bucks killed by these old timers that Darner wound up with, mounted on new capes, and claimed he killed them. He was stripped of all of his numerous B&C entries because of his poaching and lying. His desire for fame and fortune got the best of him.
J G, thnx for that post.
It disappoints me greatly. He should have lost all credit and credibility !!
We don’t count eyeguards either, I know even in Idaho they count em.
That makes NO sense to me......WTH is wrong with you Westerners? What are points there for, to be ignored??????
About the only guy I know in Montana, Wyoming or Idaho who counts eye guards is originally from Oregon...
I grew up not counting eye guards at all, and nobody I knew did either, at least with mule deer. Some counted them on whitetails, but that's it. I think the main reason we don't count eye guards, especially on mule deer, is that somethings they're gone..sometimes they're on 3x3s or even 2x2s, but they're almost always really small. I've seen mule deer racks pushing 30" wide without a trace of an eye guard, and 18" wide racks with solid eye guards.
A basic 3x3 with small, mule deer style eye guards and a 4x4 without eye guards are both 4x4s? That's confusing.
A lot of our blacktail don’t have eyeguards either Ted, or have just a single...
Ping pong balls for the win. Once you've wrestled everything else in life is easy. Dan Gable I keep my circle small, I’d rather have 4 quarters than 100 pennies.
I am in S.E. British Columbia and our count is one side without eyeguards. Boone and Crockett scoring is the defining measurement anyway. A 180 typical mule deer buck is a good one around here. Tines are measured if you can hang a ring on it ordinarily.
Personally, I think a lot of the really big bucks, especially mule deer, that we see at big buck contests, in magazines and on the internet, are poached. Way more than we all think. There are so many big bucks poached here in SW Wyoming, it's kind of sickening. Every month it seems I hear about how the big buck everyone heard about that was killed up X creek last year, was actually poached up Y creek. They're often poached in hard to draw units, or on the winter range. Some folks in Idaho are just as bad. Posting public land to keep people out, rifle hunting in the archery season, putting general tags on draw unit deer, whatever. The greed runs high when it comes to mule deer.
To be perfectly clear: I am not saying I believe the more respected mule deer hunters on this board are being shady or being illegal. I certainly don't believe that is true.
Here's the photo of the Montana buck that Dwayne (BC30cal) mentioned early in this thread. We quartered it and packed it out on horses, so I have no idea of the exact weight, but did measure the body (am a compulsive measurer) and it was a little bigger than a 1-1/2-year-old cow elk my wife killed a couple weeks later. My guess is around 400 pounds on the hoof. I almost didn't shoot it because the body made the antlers look not all that big, but they gross-scored right at 200 inches.
Killed another that was about as big-bodied in Alberta around 15 years later. Didn't get to weigh that one either, but the boned meat weighed 130 pounds, and a general rule for deer is that live weight is around 3 times the boned meat.
A couple of biological rules affect deer weight, along with feed and growing season. One is latitude: Bergmann's Rule is that mammals tend to grow bigger bodies in more northern latitudes, though this decreases above about 60 degrees north latitude (the upper boundary of British Columbia and Alberta), because feed is reduced. In general, bigger bodies help animals retain more body heat in northern climes, so they survive and reproduce more.
The same applies to altitude, to a certain extent. The buck in the photo was taken just above timberline on the Rocky Mountain Front, and the other really big-bodied bucks I've taken in Montana have also come from around timberline in the western mountains. But that was the biggest.
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.” John Steinbeck
We don’t count eyeguards either, I know even in Idaho they count em.
No one around here counts the eye guards.......we all count the brow tines though.
If you said eye guards around here folks would think you were talking about safety glasses.
😂😂
Ping pong balls for the win. Once you've wrestled everything else in life is easy. Dan Gable I keep my circle small, I’d rather have 4 quarters than 100 pennies.
FELLAS, I've hunted 4 States in the South and for 47 years and I've NEVER even seen a deer in those categories.
Jerry
I grew up hunting the Sandhills where JG hunts and there are some big ones there. I killed one farther North and West a few years ago in Northern NM. I'm not much on measuring antlers but someone in our party measured it at around 170," which is not that impressive. What was impressive was the body size. I usually process my own but was in a hurry and stopped at my parents on the way home and dropped it off at the processer in Slaton, TX. They weighed it at 285 gutted with no hide, head nor horns. It was bigger than 4-5 of the Texas white tails put together laying on the floor. Still trying to eat that nasty buck.
I know this for certain. The largest WT I've seen was killed by my hunting pard in S W Miss. He weighed 250 lbs on the hoof. I was hunting with him but not at his side when he killed it. We were in a Mature Hardwood forest and obviously he wound up in the 'bottom'! ha
I put him on the back of my wheeler and to climb up a hill with 2 what I call Water Bars. I had to stand up and lean forward over the handlebars as I topped the roll overs.
That was a big WT for this part of the country. We DO have some toads in/around the farmlands of Ar. but I've never hunted those areas.
Deer Hunt on Antelope Island December 9th, 2011 @ 4:30pm
Often referred to as "Utah's Yellowstone." Antelope Island has been considered by some as a sanctuary for the giant mule deer bucks and the transplanted California big horn sheep that reside there. That changed in the 2010 legislative session when the legislature passed intent language to allow two deer hunts and two sheep hunts in an appropriations bill for Natural Resources.
In 2011, two tags were auctioned off, two more were drawn through the public draw. The two auctioned tags were purchased by W.D. Martin who spent nearly three hundred thousand dollars. 90% of that money is designated to stay on Antelope Island. Despite the money, many were still angry with the decision.
Joe Hull, a member of the State Parks Board that voted in favor of the hunts, says their vote was fiscally responsible. Over two thousand people applied for the Antelope Island deer tag. Brad
Kendrick beat the odds, drawing the coveted tag Kendrick, his brother and his closest buddies spent many days scouting for the hunt. That's when they ran into Doyle Moss, the outfitter who would be guiding the auction tag holders.
Kendrick said, "a lot of times the public hunter kind of get the short end of the stick but that wasn't the case at all. Doyle jumped in we shared information we scouted together. Like I said he didn't charge me a dime. He just wanted to be part of the hunt cause he's spent so much time out here this summer like we had putting his heart and soul and you kind of get fond of these animals. That bridge was gapped between the public draw and the outfitters."
It was Kendrick long time hunting buddy Jeff Post who on the first day of the hunt, while walking this ridge found the buck. It was the deer Brad had always dreamed of.
Kendrick and Moss, set off on a three mile hike to get into position. But then, the buck disappeared, dark was coming and just when it looked like the hunters would have to wait. Kendrick sealed the deal with a 500 yard shot.
James Pepper: There's no law west of Dodge and no God west of the Pecos. Right, Mr. Chisum? John Chisum: Wrong, Mr. Pepper. Because no matter where people go, sooner or later there's the law. And sooner or later they find God's already been there.
I believe that Darner worked for the Dept of Wildlife in CO, or in some State capacity, and was always in the field. He did know a lot about big mule deer because he was around them every day. The guy I hunted in Sonora, MX with actually was involved in the Darner investigations, actively, and he told me all about it. I had been a big Darner believer and was pretty stunned actually. Turns out Darner either shot most all of those big bucks out of season, or it was even proven he bought some of those antlers from very old timers that killed monster bucks back in the 30's and '40's when there were virtually no pictures. As luck would have it there was an old pic or two of some massive bucks killed by these old timers that Darner wound up with, mounted on new capes, and claimed he killed them. He was stripped of all of his numerous B&C entries because of his poaching and lying. His desire for fame and fortune got the best of him.
Was the Sonora guys name Rich?
Originally Posted by Oregonmuley
I remember reading about him as a kid, in fact I met him at a sportsmans show back in the late 70's or early 80's maybe. Anyway, I went up to his display and bought his book and had him sign it. Its says, To Frank "Good luck hunting" Kirt Darner. Guess it takes more than good luck to kill all those big bucks Its a pretty good book though for when it was written.
I was hunting on top of Escuidilla mountain in Nov 2002 with a buddy. We both had bull elk tags. packed in with horses and stayed up there at 10,200'. There were some slammer bulls up there. One morning we worked around a bedding area and I saw an animal standing behind the brush. I got down on my knees and looked at his legs. I figured it was a rogue hereford steer they were so big. Could see one eye through the brush. It stood there for maybe 60 seconds while we discussed him having NO idea it was a mule deer buck. When we moved towards him to press on, we fully expected to see a beef. All we saw was a GIANT muley buck turn and stot away. He easily weighed 400 lbs on the hoof. We were both dumbfounded. I don't know what he would have scored since his body was so big it was tough to say. I reckon he was 205-220 and perfectly typical. Never saw him again. He bailed off into a quaking aspen thicket that was about 40 years old and dog-hair thick.
A few years later a friend in Holbrook killed a big old buck up by Witch Wells in N/E Arizona. It was two feet longer than the other bucks they killed. Buck had 31" spread but no mass or heighth. He had worn out teeth. Was probably 12-13 years old. Don't know how he got so big with those teeth. His feet were 4" long and not elfen shaped like some bucks are that live in sandy soil. Rick told me he weighed 400 lbs. The taxidermist that mounted him was a friend of mine and he said that when he ordered that form they called him to confirm. It was a form for a small bull elk. His neck measurement was like 29" I think.
There are a few really big ones out there for sure.
NRA Benefactor Member
Those who live by the sword get shot by those who don't.
Deer Hunt on Antelope Island December 9th, 2011 @ 4:30pm
Often referred to as "Utah's Yellowstone." Antelope Island has been considered by some as a sanctuary for the giant mule deer bucks and the transplanted California big horn sheep that reside there. That changed in the 2010 legislative session when the legislature passed intent language to allow two deer hunts and two sheep hunts in an appropriations bill for Natural Resources.
In 2011, two tags were auctioned off, two more were drawn through the public draw. The two auctioned tags were purchased by W.D. Martin who spent nearly three hundred thousand dollars. 90% of that money is designated to stay on Antelope Island. Despite the money, many were still angry with the decision.
Joe Hull, a member of the State Parks Board that voted in favor of the hunts, says their vote was fiscally responsible. Over two thousand people applied for the Antelope Island deer tag. Brad
Kendrick beat the odds, drawing the coveted tag Kendrick, his brother and his closest buddies spent many days scouting for the hunt. That's when they ran into Doyle Moss, the outfitter who would be guiding the auction tag holders.
Kendrick said, "a lot of times the public hunter kind of get the short end of the stick but that wasn't the case at all. Doyle jumped in we shared information we scouted together. Like I said he didn't charge me a dime. He just wanted to be part of the hunt cause he's spent so much time out here this summer like we had putting his heart and soul and you kind of get fond of these animals. That bridge was gapped between the public draw and the outfitters."
It was Kendrick long time hunting buddy Jeff Post who on the first day of the hunt, while walking this ridge found the buck. It was the deer Brad had always dreamed of.
Kendrick and Moss, set off on a three mile hike to get into position. But then, the buck disappeared, dark was coming and just when it looked like the hunters would have to wait. Kendrick sealed the deal with a 500 yard shot.
rosco1, yes his name was Rich L. I had those books by Darner too. There were some huge bucks in there that I couldn't quit thinking about. Too bad the guy was a fraud.
It is irrelevant what you think. What matters is the TRUTH.
Deer Hunt on Antelope Island December 9th, 2011 @ 4:3
Often referred to as "Utah's Yellowstone." Antelope Island has been considered by some as a sanctuary for the giant mule deer bucks and the transplanted California big horn sheep that reside there. That changed in the 2010 legislative session when the legislature passed intent language to allow two deer hunts and two sheep hunts in an appropriations bill for Natural Resources.
In 2011, two tags were auctioned off, two more were drawn through the public draw. The two auctioned tags were purchased by W.D. Martin who spent nearly three hundred thousand dollars. 90% of that money is designated to stay on Antelope Island. Despite the money, many were still angry with the decision.
Joe Hull, a member of the State Parks Board that voted in favor of the hunts, says their vote was fiscally responsible. Over two thousand people applied for the Antelope Island deer tag. Brad
Kendrick beat the odds, drawing the coveted tag Kendrick, his brother and his closest buddies spent many days scouting for the hunt. That's when they ran into Doyle Moss, the outfitter who would be guiding the auction tag holders.
Kendrick said, "a lot of times the public hunter kind of get the short end of the stick but that wasn't the case at all. Doyle jumped in we shared information we scouted together. Like I said he didn't charge me a dime. He just wanted to be part of the hunt cause he's spent so much time out here this summer like we had putting his heart and soul and you kind of get fond of these animals. That bridge was gapped between the public draw and the outfitters."
It was Kendrick long time hunting buddy Jeff Post who on the first day of the hunt, while walking this ridge found the buck. It was the deer Brad had always dreamed of.
Kendrick and Moss, set off on a three mile hike to get into position. But then, the buck disappeared, dark was coming and just when it looked like the hunters would have to wait. Kendrick sealed the deal with a 500 yard shot.
Man, awesome buck!
Awesome. Must have used a Creedmore !!!
Well we're Green and we're Gold, and we play better when it's cold. All us Cheese heads have our favorite superstar. We love Brett Favre.
I believe that Darner worked for the Dept of Wildlife in CO, or in some State capacity, and was always in the field. He did know a lot about big mule deer because he was around them every day. The guy I hunted in Sonora, MX with actually was involved in the Darner investigations, actively, and he told me all about it. I had been a big Darner believer and was pretty stunned actually. Turns out Darner either shot most all of those big bucks out of season, or it was even proven he bought some of those antlers from very old timers that killed monster bucks back in the 30's and '40's when there were virtually no pictures. As luck would have it there was an old pic or two of some massive bucks killed by these old timers that Darner wound up with, mounted on new capes, and claimed he killed them. He was stripped of all of his numerous B&C entries because of his poaching and lying. His desire for fame and fortune got the best of him.
Was the Sonora guys name Rich?
Originally Posted by Oregonmuley
I remember reading about him as a kid, in fact I met him at a sportsmans show back in the late 70's or early 80's maybe. Anyway, I went up to his display and bought his book and had him sign it. Its says, To Frank "Good luck hunting" Kirt Darner. Guess it takes more than good luck to kill all those big bucks Its a pretty good book though for when it was written.
Sounds familiar.
Yup:)
"Rather hunt Mule deer than anything else" "Team 7MM-08"
Here's a group that definitely were not poached...and that is Dustin Stetter, a friend and Outfitter/Guide. I would love to know how tall those two bucks stood at the horn tips that he is comparing. To me, that last deer standing with a group of does looked more like an elk in comparison body-size...:)
Weight-wise, the mule deer that sported the rack he is holding looked heavier to me than the heaviest whitetail that ever came my way at 265# dressed after hanging close to two weeks in the bush & shop, losing weight every day. I imagine Canada can turn out some real whoppers. Here in the MI camp, 200# dressed is the target for a "big" buck as it is in a lot of whitetail camps, and we do pay attention. It has never crossed my mind to consider their height...but would think that goes to the big mulies, no contest.
Kendrick and Moss, set off on a three mile hike to get into position. But then, the buck disappeared, dark was coming and just when it looked like the hunters would have to wait. Kendrick sealed the deal with a 500 yard shot.
Man, awesome buck!
Awesome. Must have used a Creedmore !!!
Kreedmor's Daddy
6.5x284 Norma
James Pepper: There's no law west of Dodge and no God west of the Pecos. Right, Mr. Chisum? John Chisum: Wrong, Mr. Pepper. Because no matter where people go, sooner or later there's the law. And sooner or later they find God's already been there.
This is the biggest bodied Buck I've ever killed, or seen in person. 8.5 years old. Don't know what he weighed, but just holding head up for pics was a chore!
Not the biggest rack wise but these two were both tanks. Sorry for the poor pictures you can’t really tell. Surprised I even have pictures of them actually. Never took pictures when I was younger. Still don’t take a lot..wish I did tho.
I am hoping this guy survived the winter. Still no 8 footer, but I'd shoot him.
Damn nice bucks Ted, draw unit?
Ping pong balls for the win. Once you've wrestled everything else in life is easy. Dan Gable I keep my circle small, I’d rather have 4 quarters than 100 pennies.
Both are in general units. Oct 1-Oct 12 for the upper buck (pic was taken in Dec, so in his winter range-he may be in a different unit during the season) and the lower buck's unit season is Sep 15-Oct 6.
The first buck was back in 2014. Doubt he's still alive but I guess it is possible.
Damn..... I got max points I need to burn over there, thinking sw aspen mtn, black butte...
Ping pong balls for the win. Once you've wrestled everything else in life is easy. Dan Gable I keep my circle small, I’d rather have 4 quarters than 100 pennies.
Have personally seen a half dozen on the ground that were 180 plus and the only thing that came to mind was "holy chitt look at the size of that body" ... Washington high country giants 300lbs on the hoof. If you love giant Mule Deer Idaho's Greatest Mule Deer 2nd Edition by Ryan Hatfield is a must own book.
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GOA,Idaho2AIAlliance,AmericanFirearmsAssociation,IdahoTrappersAssociation,FoundationForWildlifeManagement ID and MT.
Have personally seen a half dozen on the ground that were 180 plus and the only thing that came to mind was "holy chitt look at the size of that body" ... Washington high country giants 300lbs on the hoof. If you love giant Mule Deer Idaho's Greatest Mule Deer 2nd Edition by Ryan Hatfield is a must own book.
Yep seen some huge bodied deer from the methow and kettle crest...
Ping pong balls for the win. Once you've wrestled everything else in life is easy. Dan Gable I keep my circle small, I’d rather have 4 quarters than 100 pennies.
Damn..... I got max points I need to burn over there, thinking sw aspen mtn, black butte...
That'd be units 102 and 101, respectively. The genetics for big deer are there, no doubt. Tough draw though.
Yep, I'm in this deep, gonna wait for a great tag... never gonna be in this position again so I'll wait it out.
Ping pong balls for the win. Once you've wrestled everything else in life is easy. Dan Gable I keep my circle small, I’d rather have 4 quarters than 100 pennies.
Damn..... I got max points I need to burn over there, thinking sw aspen mtn, black butte...
That'd be units 102 and 101, respectively. The genetics for big deer are there, no doubt. Tough draw though.
Yep, I'm in this deep, gonna wait for a great tag... never gonna be in this position again so I'll wait it out.
I was going to as well.. until I applied for a general tag with one under max this year .. can’t ignore the best bucks in WY come out of general units.. I’m max on elk I’ll hold out for a primo unit on that one.
Damn..... I got max points I need to burn over there, thinking sw aspen mtn, black butte...
That'd be units 102 and 101, respectively. The genetics for big deer are there, no doubt. Tough draw though.
Yep, I'm in this deep, gonna wait for a great tag... never gonna be in this position again so I'll wait it out.
I was going to as well.. until I applied for a general tag with one under max this year .. can’t ignore the best bucks in WY come out of general units.. I’m max on elk I’ll hold out for a primo unit on that one.
You're absolutely correct that the general units have every bit as big of deer as the hard draws, but you're often hurrying towards a deer during a general season once you spot it before the guy on the next ridge sees it too, and takes a 1000 yard shot at it. The general seasons get stupid crowded in the good areas. Even the high country, miles off the road are often crawling with hunters. I hunt the transition areas 1-2 miles from the roads, where the road hunters can't see but nowhere near in as fas as the hikers go. It seems to be the best bang for your buck, so to speak, that I have found.
The deer draw tags are nice to avoid the crowds...not necessarily to find the bigger deer.
Damn..... I got max points I need to burn over there, thinking sw aspen mtn, black butte...
That'd be units 102 and 101, respectively. The genetics for big deer are there, no doubt. Tough draw though.
Yep, I'm in this deep, gonna wait for a great tag... never gonna be in this position again so I'll wait it out.
I was going to as well.. until I applied for a general tag with one under max this year .. can’t ignore the best bucks in WY come out of general units.. I’m max on elk I’ll hold out for a primo unit on that one.
You're absolutely correct that the general units have every bit as big of deer as the hard draws, but you're often hurrying towards a deer during a general season once you spot it before the guy on the next ridge sees it too, and takes a 1000 yard shot at it. The general seasons get stupid crowded in the good areas. Even the high country, miles off the road are often crawling with hunters. I hunt the transition areas 1-2 miles from the roads, where the road hunters can't see but nowhere near in as fas as the hikers go. It seems to be the best bang for your buck, so to speak, that I have found.
The deer draw tags are nice to avoid the crowds...not necessarily to find the bigger deer.
That’s my strategy as well. Hunt between the road hunters and the guys on horses, or backpacked in. The number of BIG bucks and bulls I’ve found that way the last couple years has been unreal. And I can eat a good dinner and sleep in a comfortable bed every night.
I believe that Darner worked for the Dept of Wildlife in CO, or in some State capacity, and was always in the field. He did know a lot about big mule deer because he was around them every day. The guy I hunted in Sonora, MX with actually was involved in the Darner investigations, actively, and he told me all about it. I had been a big Darner believer and was pretty stunned actually. Turns out Darner either shot most all of those big bucks out of season, or it was even proven he bought some of those antlers from very old timers that killed monster bucks back in the 30's and '40's when there were virtually no pictures. As luck would have it there was an old pic or two of some massive bucks killed by these old timers that Darner wound up with, mounted on new capes, and claimed he killed them. He was stripped of all of his numerous B&C entries because of his poaching and lying. His desire for fame and fortune got the best of him.
I remember reading about him as a kid, in fact I met him at a sportsmans show back in the late 70's or early 80's maybe. Anyway, I went up to his display and bought his book and had him sign it. Its says, To Frank "Good luck hunting" Kirt Darner. Guess it takes more than good luck to kill all those big bucks Its a pretty good book though for when it was written.
I did the same, seeing him at a gun show and buying his book. I was very disappointed finding out he was a poacher. There were some threads about here on the campfire about ten years ago. I remember reading after his divorce, his angry ex turned him in for hunting at night on some winter range area, along with some other poaching.
Darner's tour brought him to my part of Oregon and I was very excited to go. After his presentation we were allowed on stage to check out all his masssive mule deer trophies.
I was surprised and immediately suspicious, as some of the giant racks were weather checked and had been obviously reworked to look natural.
No one that has the passion for great heads like those would have left them out in the weather to be bleached and checked.
Right then, I thought the guy was a fraud.
BT53 "Where do they find young men like this?" Reporter Savidge, Iraq Elk, it's what's for dinner....
I believe that Darner worked for the Dept of Wildlife in CO, or in some State capacity, and was always in the field. He did know a lot about big mule deer because he was around them every day. The guy I hunted in Sonora, MX with actually was involved in the Darner investigations, actively, and he told me all about it. I had been a big Darner believer and was pretty stunned actually. Turns out Darner either shot most all of those big bucks out of season, or it was even proven he bought some of those antlers from very old timers that killed monster bucks back in the 30's and '40's when there were virtually no pictures. As luck would have it there was an old pic or two of some massive bucks killed by these old timers that Darner wound up with, mounted on new capes, and claimed he killed them. He was stripped of all of his numerous B&C entries because of his poaching and lying. His desire for fame and fortune got the best of him.
Most of that is not accurate.
Darner worked for a timber company, not the State.
There was one buck that looked identical to a buck in an old photo. Darner claims to have carbon dating test results showing his buck died when he said it did, not back in the 40’s or whatever.
Who knows? Seems unlikely, but I have seen some NT genetics with VERY strong resemblances.
I think he pulled his entries after B&C wouldn’t acknowledge the buck resembling the one in the old photograph.
The thing about Darner is that he wrote a book and described tactics that do actually take big deer. And that was back when few cared about them. He obviously loved the outdoors and spent a ton of time hunting.
As good as the mule deer hunting in Colorado and Wyoming was back in the 1960’s-1980’s, I guess it doesn’t seem like to much of a stretch to believe he legitimately killed his deer.
Might be giving him too much credit.
Originally Posted by shrapnel
I probably hit more elk with a pickup than you have with a rifle.
Originally Posted by JohnBurns
I have yet to see anyone claim Leupold has never had to fix an optic. I know I have sent a few back. 2 MK 6s, a VX-6, and 3 VX-111s.
rosco1, yes his name was Rich L. I had those books by Darner too. There were some huge bucks in there that I couldn't quit thinking about. Too bad the guy was a fraud.
I remember about 15 years back, Rich L. started dropping little pieces about Darner every month or so. There was a thread over on monstermuleys called “The Real Kirt Darner” or “The Kirt Darner I Know” or something like that.
In each little “chapter” there was always some insinuation that he had Darner red-handed, but then he’d leave you hanging for the next little morsel.
Increased website traffic for Rich greatly, I’m sure.
Then it all just stopped. There was no smoking gun. I think Darner made for a good punching bag.
Originally Posted by shrapnel
I probably hit more elk with a pickup than you have with a rifle.
Originally Posted by JohnBurns
I have yet to see anyone claim Leupold has never had to fix an optic. I know I have sent a few back. 2 MK 6s, a VX-6, and 3 VX-111s.
rosco1, yes his name was Rich L. I had those books by Darner too. There were some huge bucks in there that I couldn't quit thinking about. Too bad the guy was a fraud.
I remember about 15 years back, Rich L. started dropping little pieces about Darner every month or so. There was a thread over on monstermuleys called “The Real Kirt Darner” or “The Kirt Darner I Know” or something like that.
In each little “chapter” there was always some insinuation that he had Darner red-handed, but then he’d leave you hanging for the next little morsel.
Increased website traffic for Rich greatly, I’m sure.
Then it all just stopped. There was no smoking gun. I think Darner made for a good punching bag.
Rich forgot more about Darner and the investigation than you will ever know. He wasn't guessing.
It is irrelevant what you think. What matters is the TRUTH.
nice pictures and some dandy bucks too ! congrats to all ! > up here in northern Minnesota us Rednecks who drink plenty Busch light beer say nice horns too !
Rich forgot more about Darner and the investigation than you will ever know. He wasn't guessing.
Then why didn’t he post it up in his sensationalized story on mm? I keep hearing that Darner did this and that but I’ve never seen a shred of evidence that he poached those bucks out of season. In Rich’s story, everything he got was second-hand even though he was supposedly very close to Darner.
Anytime a guy is abnormally successful in killing big animals, poaching rumors get started by guys who are jealous. That’s pretty common, to the point that I don’t really believe any of it unless there’s some solid evidence.
Show it to me, and I’ll retract my statements and declare him a poacher.
Originally Posted by shrapnel
I probably hit more elk with a pickup than you have with a rifle.
Originally Posted by JohnBurns
I have yet to see anyone claim Leupold has never had to fix an optic. I know I have sent a few back. 2 MK 6s, a VX-6, and 3 VX-111s.
This absolutely kills folks!! Everyone thinks they’re the best, but do they go the extra mile to be overly successful? Love it, but most folks don’t do what it takes to continually take quality game. Excuses abound, when a guy continues to kill quality game, it ain’t by accident. It doesn’t help whining online either.😘
Anytime a guy is abnormally successful in killing big animals, poaching rumors get started by guys who are jealous. That’s pretty common, to the point that I don’t really believe any of it unless there’s some solid evidence.
Ping pong balls for the win. Once you've wrestled everything else in life is easy. Dan Gable I keep my circle small, I’d rather have 4 quarters than 100 pennies.
My Dad was born in eastern MT, Dawson county in 1921. Said he saw his first deer when he was 17. He was riding up a deep coulee and heard a thumping sound ahead of him. A mule deer doe came in view and went past him , said both he and his horse were startled. The population grew quickly, he said,and when the first season opened in the 40s there were some very big bucks taken, though he never weighed one to my knowledge. Biggest bucks I've seen taken off the same farm dress under 200 lbs.
I’ll see if I can find the rest of the story and just let everyone read it an decide for themselves:
Quote
My dealings with Darner by Rich LaRocco President, Hunts.Net Many of you might know that I wrote both of Kirt Darner's books in the early '80s. Some of you also might know that shortly afterward evidence came into my hands that he had not killed one of his Boone and Crockett mule deer, and I turned that evidence over to Jack Reneau of the Boone and Crockett Club, which later ruled against Darner.
This is a long and sorry story, and I've never written it down until now though I've been happy to share it with people who have asked.
I first found out about Darner when I was senior editor at Outdoor Life Magazine (yes, I worked in Manhattan), and I was assigned to edit an article that my friend Jim Zumbo had written about the man. Darner was supposedly the most successful trophy mule deer hunter of all time and had seven bucks in the Boone and Crockett Club's record book. I also found an article that been written by Doug Knight in Field and Stream magazine in the late '60s or early '70s. The article featured a hunt that Knight had enjoyed with Darner and another young friend in a New Mexico wilderness area, where Knight reported seeing some great bucks and where Darner and his friend both killed big deer.
Later, I left New York to return to the wild and free and sunny West and settled in Cache Valley, Utah. Clair Conley, editor-in-chief of Outdoor Life, asked me to stay with the magazine as Western field editor. I turned him down because the Western field editor of the time was my friend Dwight Schuh, who is now editor of Bowhunting Magazine. Clair said he was letting Dwight go, whether I took the job or not, and so I reluctantly agreed. If I had to make that decision over again, I would have turned down the job a second time, but sometimes in life you learn the hard way, and when you're hardheaded, that's how you tend to learn all your big lessons.
And that is the case with the Darner story
In 1982 I settled my family in Wellsville, Utah, an ideal location for my outdoor writing and editing career because it was right in the middle of some of the finest fishing and hunting country in America. Within two hours I could be hunting in Wyoming or Idaho and within a day's drive I could be fishing or hunting anywhere from California to Nebraska or Montana to New Mexico. And I took the opportunity to see the country, too, fishing or hunting in many locations and writing articles and taking photographs for Outdoor Life and several other outdoor magazines. Not long after returning to Utah I received an assignment to write a piece on Kirt Darner for North American Hunter magazine, published by the North American Hunting Club. I phoned Darner in Montrose, Colorado, and arranged an interview. He was knowledgeable and engaging. He was also willing to help me accomplish some of my hunting goals and talked about arranging for me to bowhunt elk with Wayne Carlton, a friend of his who had been having great fortune calling in elk with a unique method he had discovered.
Darner was in his early 40s and had recently married for the second time. His wife, Paula, seemed genuinely interested in hunting, too, and it was obvious they enjoyed spending time together in the outdoors.
My article dealt mainly with Darner's advice to other hunters who were seeking a trophy-class mule deer. I had been seeing some great bucks while bowhunting in Utah and had spent several years trying to put a bow kill on the all-time Boone and Crockett list. Each year I was seeing one to three bucks that I thought would go into the B&C book, which at the time required a net score of at least 195. So it seemed logical to me that if a guy hunted with a rifle long enough and smart enough, he could take a B&C class buck occasionally. Darner had killed seven B&C bucks though if I recall some of them had been taken when the minimum was still 190. That fall Darner arranged for me to bow hunt elk with Wayne Carlton, originally from Florida. Wayne had been seeing a tremendous bull elk in a wilderness area and had relocated the bull shortly before the season. He thought that bull would score close to world record size, which was in the 380s at the time. We were planning to concentrate on that bull alone. Unfortunately Wayne's mother became severely ill in September. By the time of the hunt Wayne had flown to Florida to be with her, so Darner arranged for my hunting partner and me to hunt with a Texan who had moved to Montrose and owned a restaurant in town.
My hunting partner, broadhead and Tree Sling inventor Jeff Anderson of New Jersey, soon learned that Archie knew the area we were hunting near Dolores but knew little about bowhunting or calling. Fortunately, Larry D. Jones of Oregon, had given me one of his prototype metal-reed elk bugles, and so we decided we would try that. I had killed my first elk the previous bow season when Schuh used this call to lure a 5x5 within 28 yards of me at an elevation of almost 13,000 feet in northern Colorado, and he called in six or seven other bulls that season.
It didn't take us long to realize that our chances of taking a big bull would be low because the area was well-roaded, and most bulls were probably having a hard time surviving more than two or three years. So when the guide and I called a four-point bull within a range of 10 or 15 yards, I sent an arrow through his lungs. After packing the meat out, we spent several days trying to call in a bull for Jeff. We had some action, but when our guide mistook the droppings and odors left by domestic sheep for elk sign, we were getting a mite frustrated. With just a couple of days left in the hunt Wayne arrived. A charming guy with a southern accent and a constant smile, he immediately lifted our spirits. He demonstrated his calling technique, which he had learned on his own, using a mouth diaphragm turkey call to bugle elk. We had several bulls, including a 6x6, approach within 70 or 80 yards but couldn't get Jeff the shot he wanted.
Later that year I wrote the first article about using a diaphragm call to bugle elk, basing it on interviews with Wayne. The article's publication in Outdoor Life sent Wayne into a new career path. He sold his pest control business and set up shop as a wholesaler of hunting accessories, and he later became a popular seminar speaker and eventually began producing hunting videos, and now he hosts a TV show for the Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation.
After the hunt we returned to Montrose, where Darner showed us Polaroid photographs of himself and his wife posing with a gigantic non-typical mule deer with antlers that were still covered with velvet. "While you guys were elk hunting," Darner said, "Paula and I were hunting this buck in Wyoming. He scores over 280 Boone and Crockett points." And then he proceeded to tell us a detailed story of how he and Paula had outsmarted this wily old buck high above timberline in a roadless portion of Region H in Wyoming. "You know," he said, "I think I have enough stories and pictures to make a really interesting book about trophy mule deer hunting. I've always liked your writing style. Would you be interested in writing it for me?" Indeed I was. And so we worked out a deal where I would interview him and write, "How to Find Giant Bucks" by Kirt Darner as told to Rich LaRocco. He would publish the book himself and would pay me $1.50 for each copy sold.
Eventually I signed a contract that gave Darner the copyright to anything I might write in connection with the book, and my name would not appear on the cover, only in a bio inside. I'm glad now that I didn't have such a big ego that I demanded my name on the cover.
And so began a series of interviews I did with Darner in his home, surrounded by all his rifles and trophies. I would drive down to Montrose and spend a couple of days each time, taking voluminous notes and setting up photographs that would be used to illustrate the book.
Throughout the interviews I asked Darner several times if there had been anything illegal or unethical about any of the deer he had taken. He consistently replied that he had taken each buck fairly and squarely and had never broken any laws in doing so. He said his father, unlike many hunters of the time, was a stickler for obeying the game laws. "My dad was the same way," I said. "Some of my friends had dads and brothers who would party hunt and even sometimes hunt after season or shoot after hours, but my dad was a straight arrow. Still, I didn't start off legally and ethically. A friend and I shot our first deer with .22s during a rabbit hunt in the winter when we were 14 and 15 years old. I haven't done anything like that since, but didn't you ever even one time bend a game law in taking any of your deer?"
"Absolutely not," Darner replied and then he intimated that perhaps he should not associate himself with me for having shot that doe as a youngster.
At a conference that year I mentioned my work to fellow outdoor writer Judd Cooney, a former conservation officer in Colorado, and he warned me against writing the book.
"You need to stay away from Darner," he said. "He has a reputation of being a poacher." "Is there any evidence against him?" I asked.
"I don't have any," Judd replied. "But I have a friend who does."
"If that's the case, I need to talk with him," I said. "What's his name?"
"I can't give it to you," Judd said.
"Well, if Darner truly is a poacher, I need to know," I said. "Have him call me. I don't need to quote him or anything, but if there's anything solid against Darner, I will disassociate myself from him. I've asked him several times if there's anything fishy about any of his deer, and he's always said he hasn't even bent the rules to take any of them. He says he has critics who are jealous and just can't believe a hunter can be good enough to kill as many big deer as he has taken. Plus his stories about each deer are consistent each time he repeats them."
I never heard from Cooney's friend and went ahead with my work on the book. Nowadays I would probably heed Judd's advice. I used to believe a man is innocent until proved guilty. Now I realize that this principle applies only in a court of law. When it comes to your reputation or your family's financial or physical safety, it's wise to assume guilt when there's any reasonable cause to believe so. I also believe that where there's smoke, there's fire. Now, 24 years after I smelled the first smoke, I've come to believe that there wasn't just fire but a major conflagration.
One day I asked Kirt why he didn't have more field pictures of himself with bucks he had killed. "I usually hunt alone," he replied. "And I pack really light, usually just carrying what I need in my pockets, and I just don't have room for a camera. I've never used a self-timer and frankly never thought about taking photos."One reason I took him at his word is that when I killed my first mature buck, I failed to take a photograph of it even though I had a Minolta SRT-101 in camp. That buck was extraordinarily large in body size. Leonard Lee Rue wrote in one of his books about two California muleys that each weighed more than 400 pounds, and another source claims the weight record is 385 pounds field-dressed. Neither of my two brothers nor I would be surprised if my buck came close to those figures, and yet I still didn't think about getting a picture after we hauled the buck out of the mountains. I regret that oversight, but even if I had a photo I'm sure that some would call it a hoax. In any case, if I didn't take a picture of such an unusually big deer, then I could understand why Darner didn't make a habit of taking field pictures, either.
Darner said he would start carrying a camera equipped with a self-timer to allay suspicions about his success. Indeed before the book was finished, autumn had arrived, and he supplied to the publisher photos of big deer he claimed to have harvested in Utah and Colorado. Those of you who have read "How to Find Giant Bucks" might remember a couple of those photos. I never saw those pictures until the book was off the press, and it was obvious that both deer were photographed in the same place in front of the same rock. Darner claimed that he transported the deer to the same spot for photographs and even took me to that location, which was near Montrose.
After the book was published I started hearing many rumors and theories about Darner. I felt it was my duty to follow up on these rumors, and invariably they led nowhere. Most critics would say that no single person could ever take as many record-class bucks in a lifetime as Darner claimed to have done because big muleys are so rare and so difficult to hunt. The rumors seemed to spring from envy as much as from incredulity. I began to think that killing more than two or three record-class mule deer in a lifetime would ruin the credibility of any hunter. Even today, my best proof that I'm not a poacher is that I don't have a Boone and Crockett muley to my credit. If and when I finally kill one, I fear that some hunters will say I broke the law to do it. One especially troubling case involved a sheriff's deputy in Delta County, Colorado. The deputy had written a letter to Outdoor Life, contending that Darner was well-known as a poacher and that he had been charged with grand theft of an automobile.
By then I was editing Darner's second book, "Hunting the Rockies," a compilation of stories by Darner and acquaintances of his. During one of my trips to Montrose, I stopped in Delta to talk with the deputy. The county sheriff wouldn't allow me to interview him, taking a copy of the letter sent to Outdoor Life and promising that he would respond after looking into the matter. A few weeks later I received a letter from the sheriff, who said the deputy had been suspended because there was very little truth in the letter he had written. He said the deputy had no proof that Darner was a poacher and that Kirt had not been charged with stealing a car. A hunter who was angry that Darner had leased a ranch parked a truck to block access through a gate to the property. Kirt had moved the truck a few yards away from the gate, angering the hunter and the deputy.Another interesting claim came my way during an elk bowhunting trip in the Washakie Wilderness east of Yellowstone National Park in Wyoming. I called in and killed a six-point bull after a marathon hunt, and after returning to base camp, the outfitter told me that one of his hunters had told him he had proof that Darner had taken a deer illegally."If that's the case," I said, "I need the facts.
"The outfitter said that the hunter was in a spike camp but would be coming into the main camp in a day or two. When he returned to main camp one day, I immediately sought him out."Yup, I have proof that Darner is a poacher," he said. "That big Wyoming deer was supposedly shot after Sept. 10. I was hunting in Wyoming then, and all the bucks we saw were totally out of velvet. He had to have shot that buck before the season.
""Well, that's an interesting theory," I said.
"But I saw a 36-inch non-typical in full velvet on Sept. 17 in Region G in Wyoming, and one of my friends shot it the next day, and it was still in full velvet."
So much for that proof.After the second book was published, my friend Kim Bonnett, a man whom I respect and admire and an accomplished hunter in his own right, told me that he had major doubts about a 36-inch buck Darner supposedly shot in Utah. Even though Kim and his wife had developed a close friendship with the Darners, he was cutting off contact with him. Kim had invited Kirt to hunt a ranch he had leased in a remote section of central Utah. During a pre-season scouting trip, both men saw a gigantic non-typical mule deer, and Darner told Bonnett that he would be holding out for that deer. Darner showed up to hunt the deer and left the ranch shortly afterward, but not before one of Kim's customers saw Darner with the buck, which he supposedly had killed the previous day.
The hunter said the deer appeared to have been dead much longer than a day.I already had interviewed Darner about this hunt and had written and sold an article about it. That piece was published in Petersen's Hunting Magazine. In it Darner had said his wife, Paula, also shot at an exceptional typical muley on the ranch. Bonnett said that he hadn't given Paula permission to hunt. He also said that nobody on the ranch had heard either of the Darners shoot. He also said that one of the Darners had entered a big typical in the Sunset Sporting Goods big buck contest in Price, Utah, and he wondered whether Paula or Kirt had shot that animal elsewhere. Kim was particularly offended by a paragraph in the article that criticized his guides for driving down a ridge before dark on opening morning, while the Darners were in position close to the prime deer area.I called Darner about my conversation with Kim, and he said that he stood by his story and asked whether I had ever failed to hear somebody in my hunting camp shoot at a deer.
"Yes, indeed," I said.
(Incidentally, just three years ago while hunting with my friend Chuck Johnson, I shot an elk as I was walking just 50 yards ahead of Chuck on a bare hilltop in a brisk winter wind, and he didn't hear my .300 Magnum bark twice.) Darner said there obviously had been a miscommunication about Paula's permission to hunt. He also had an explanation about the Sunset contest, but I don't recall it.As for the big non-typical buck's appearance, Darner said the eyes of a deer shrivel up quickly in the dry, hot air of southeastern Utah, and I knew that to be the case. "I have some pictures of us packing out that deer on Kim's lease," he said.
"It's not like I killed a big buck somewhere else and packed it down onto the ranch. That wouldn't make any sense anyway."
It was fall at the time, and I didn't have time to follow up on the Sunset story. Darner sent me some pictures from that hunt along with photos of some of his other recent hunts, including pictures of hunters with trophy deer taken on his own leases in Colorado. I finally had a chance to study the photos from Bonnett's lease and realized that the deer Darner claimed to have killed on opening day appeared to have been dead much longer than Darner's story had indicated.
When I called Sunset Sporting Goods, the employees there were unable to give me any information about the Darners' entering the local big buck contest and said they no longer had the Polaroid photos they had taken of contest entries. Even though I still had no concrete evidence that Darner was lying, I had strong suspicions that something wasn't right. And that's when I received in the mail an envelope with no return name or address, and it was an item that was simultaneously confusing and shocking.(To be continued)
Originally Posted by shrapnel
I probably hit more elk with a pickup than you have with a rifle.
Originally Posted by JohnBurns
I have yet to see anyone claim Leupold has never had to fix an optic. I know I have sent a few back. 2 MK 6s, a VX-6, and 3 VX-111s.
The envelope was addressed to my last name only, misspelled "LARROCCO." In it was a black-and-white 3 1/2 x 5-inch snapshot along with a short, unsigned letter. The letter stated that the photo was taken in the 50s and showed "Bob Housholder, who is now 65 yrs old." The letter also pointed out, as several others already had noticed, that two different bucks shown in Darner's second book, "Hunting the Rockies," were photographed in front of the same rock. Darner had claimed that he had killed one of the deer in Colorado and the other in Utah. I had already heard Darner's contention that he had hauled both carcasses to a favorite location where he liked to photograph trophies. Indeed the first time I had visited him he had taken me to such a location, where I had photographed him with some of his heads. But the old picture was harder to explain. Even a cursory look at the snapshot showed that this rack was configured exactly the same as the antlers of the buck shown on the cover of "How to Find Giant Bucks." Both racks had some rare and distinguishable features, such as a so-called acorn point on the right antler, a downturned main beam, a cluster of three points on the G3 tine along with a cheater point and a curved down cheater off the G4 point. The brow tines also appeared to be identical.
The antler configuration alone wasn't quite enough proof, however. A few years earlier I had leased a big ranch in northern Utah, and one of my guides, Jason Barlow, had found a big non-typical antler on the property. If the other antler had been identical, the buck would have scored about 230 Boone and Crockett points. This non-typical antler had bases that were about 5 1/2 inches in circumference and carried eight or nine points, including two or three cheater points. Later I found what I was sure was the other antler, but it was a typical antler that, if matched, would have comprised a trophy scoring a bit over 190 B&C. A couple of months later, a poacher on our property killed a deer that had a rack that was almost a perfect match for the sheds we had found. (That poacher was a relative of one of my other guides, Rocky VanderSteen, who also had a suspiciously large number of trophy-class mule deer in his trophy room. I suspected that Rocky had told his family member where to trespass with the least likelihood of being caught.)
We compared the poached deer's antlers with the sheds that we happened to have in camp. The poached buck appeared to be younger than the animal that had left the sheds, based on mass alone; the poached deer's antler bases weren't much more than four inches in circumference. However, the sheds showed the same bends and curves, and the non-typical points were almost identical except for some missing cheaters. Yet the poached rack featured short ridges in the exact locations of the cheaters, indicating to me where cheater points probably have have grown if the deer had been allowed to live another year. Yet I was convinced that the sheds came from a different deer, based simply on mass. Later that year, during the November blackpowder season, I had a chance to hunt myself. While hunting with Rex Thomas, a freelancer who had been an editor at Petersen's Hunting Magazine and a PR man at Browning and is now an employee of the National Rifle Association, I missed a huge buck. That animal circled us and perched on a rocky hillside out of muzzleloader range, wary of us but not wanting to leave the vicinity of a dozen does. Rex got out his spotting scope, and we were able to watch that deer for five minutes. That deer appeared to be the same one that had dropped the shed antlers that Jason and I had found and had the same antler configuration and the same cheaters.
I decided to examine the Housholder photograph more closely. With a 10x loupe I could see what was essentially a fingerprint of the Housholder buck. When an antler grows, blood veins in the velvet leave deposits of calcium on the surface of the antlers. The deposits are left in ridges and dots or tiny mounds. The ridges indicate exactly how the veins were patterned, and the dots appear in unique patterns known as beading. Even two clones of the same buck would show different ridge and beading patterns. If the Housholder buck and the Darner buck were one and the same, surely a close examination would determine that.
Originally Posted by shrapnel
I probably hit more elk with a pickup than you have with a rifle.
Originally Posted by JohnBurns
I have yet to see anyone claim Leupold has never had to fix an optic. I know I have sent a few back. 2 MK 6s, a VX-6, and 3 VX-111s.
Some of the beading on the base of the left antler was arranged in a bean-shaped pattern with a dot in the middle. My photographs of Darner's mounted buck, shown on the cover of How to Find Giant Bucks, showed the same pattern. I had no doubt that the rack on Darner's mounted buck and the so-called Housholder set of antlers were one and the same. It was time to look into the Housholder picture -- was that really Bob Housholder in the photograph, and was this picture really taken in the '50s long before Darner claimed to have killed the same buck in 1977? I did a bit of research and soon learned that Housholder had been an official scorer for the Boone and Crockett Club and was well known among Arizona trophy hunters. When I was editing for Outdoor Life magazine, my chief contributor from Arizona was Bob Whittaker, an outdoor editor for The Arizona Republic newspaper in Phoenix. I placed a call to Bob to see if he had a phone number for Housholder and could tell me his approximate age.
"Well," Bob said. "I know who Bob Housholder is, but there are some things about him that you should know. I certainly wouldn't want to be placed in a position to compare Housholder's credibility with Darner's credibility."
"Why not?" I asked.
"I would rather not say," Bob replied. "But what I will do is send you some clippings of newspaper articles that will show you why you might not want to use Housholder to question anybody's character."
A few days went by, and then I received from Bob an envelope that contained the next surprise in the Darner affair. Bob had sent me clippings of three articles about Housholder. All had been published in The Arizona Republic. One of them, titled "Hunter arrested in morals case" and dated March 26, 1983, described how Housholder, 61, had been arrested "for investigation of taking photographs of a seminude 14-year-old girl and molesting two girls," according to police. He had been booked on charges of exploitation of a minor, sexual abuse and furnishing harmful items to minors.
Interestingly, Housholder was the man who started the Grand Slam Club in 1956. Another interesting aside is that one of the first chapters of the Grand Slam Club was the Foundation for North American Wild Sheep, which has gone on to bigger and better things. Click here for details.
Whittaker provided me with more information about the photographing of dead girls and the resolution of the case, but nowadays I can't find it in my old files. I did realize, however, that Whittaker was right -- I couldn't put Housholder's character up against Darner's. I needed to find out more about the buck on the cover of How to Find Giant Bucks.
That's when I got my next anonymous letter. This one I suspected came from Darner or one of his pals. It was postmarked "Albuquerque, NM, 5 Dec 1989" and it contained the next surprise.
Quote
This envelope contained clippings of the same articles that Whittaker had sent me. Also enclosed was a typewritten letter.
"To Whom It May Concern," the letter read. "I have learned that a photo was sent to you of a man and a buck that supposedly resembles one of Kirt Darner's bucks. Is the question credibility? Here is definite evidence of Householder's (sic) questionable credibility. Thank you for taking the time to read and consider this."
Why the letter had not been signed was a mystery. I still needed to learn more about the Housholder photo.
Seeing the picture had reminded me of something I had seen that spring when I had been promoting my hunting consultant service at a sport show. That's where I met George Cook, a serious hunter and a representative for Sage, a fly rod company that was only four years old at the time. George unfolded a photocopy of an article that had appeared in the September 1949 issue American Rifleman magazine, the National Rifle Association's official publication. The photocopy was made on a machine that did a poor job of reproducing photographs or screened pictures. This was a common problem among photocopiers made before the early 1980s. Grays became blacks, and groups of black or gray dots would be represented by black splotches.
A deer in one of the 2 1/2-inch by 4-inch illustrations still looked suspiciously like the same buck that had appeared on the cover of How to Find Giant Bucks.
I had a copy of the book with me at the time, so George and I studied the rack shown in photocopy and compared it with the antlers pictured on the book. There were some obvious differences. The magazine photo, as fuzzy as it was, showed a forked main beam on the deer's right antler, but on Darner's buck, the right main beam was not forked and bent down at an odd angle. The right antler in the photocopy also didn't appear to carry as many long points as the Darner buck. At the time I concluded the deer were two different animals, but because the photocopy was so poor, a little doubt had stayed with me.
Somehow the date of the magazine had stuck in my head, and so I decided to try to find an original copy of the September 1949 issue. First I tried an old gentleman who had been a member of the NRA for years and used to lend me copies of the magazine when I was a kid. He had discarded his collection years earlier. Then I tried the library at Utah State University. USU didn't collect American Rifleman magazines. Then I tried to the University of Utah library -- its collection went back only to 1951. The Brigham Young University library also went back to 1951. Finally I asked Kim Bonnett if he had any ideas. Soon he called back.
"I found a shop in Michigan that sells old magazines," he said. "And they said they have lots of old American Rifleman issues. Give them a call, and they can probably find the issue you need.
Quote
So I phoned the Highwood Bookshop in Traverse City, Michigan, and spoke with the owner. I told him I wasn't sure which issue I needed, but I thought it was the September 1949 American Rifleman.
"If I recall, the picture I'm looking for was used to illustrate an article about venison care," I said. "Would you mind looking in that issue to see if that's the one, and if so, I want a copy.
"Call me back in a few minutes," he said.
When I called back, he said, "I think I have your magazine. Send me $5 for the magazine and $1.50 for shipping, and it's yours."
I also ordered a copy of an old Outdoor Life that had its most famous cover ever, a GI painting that was actually a collage of outdoor scenes. When I worked for Outdoor Life, somebody had stolen that particular issue from the company's collection of back issues and even the original painting had come up missing. For another $5 I could get that magazine, too.
A few days later I received the September 1949 American Hunter magazine, which contained an article by Charles C. Niehuis, "Harvesting a Prime Buck," about proper game care. The piece was illustrated by 13 photographs, and one of them was the picture I wanted. It much clearer in the magazine than it had appeared in the photocopy, but the screening necessary for publishing was too coarse to make a positive ID of the buck. And there were still apparent differences. I sent a good copy of the article to Kim Bonnett, whose partner Jeff Warren quickly realized that the picture in the magazine had been flopped -- the negative had been placed upside down in the enlarger to make a reversed print.
In a mirror the magazine photograph made it obvious that this buck and the Darner buck looked identical. The picture wasn't clear enough that a person could say with 100% certainty that the pictures showed the exact same deer.
"If we had original negatives or prints," I told Kim, "I would bet they would show this is the exact same deer that Darner claimed to have killed in the '70s. I've already called American Hunter, and the editor said they don't have manuscripts or photos from that far back. I wonder if Niehuis is still alive. I'm right in the middle of my busy season and can't take time to do research right now. But wouldn't that be something if Niehuis were still alive and could track down the photos that went with his article?"
A few days later Kim phoned.
"You're not going to believe this," he said. "Niehuis is still alive and living in California."
I could not find a phone number to match the address that Kim gave me, so I wrote a letter explaining my interest in the photographs and asked Niehuis to call me. A few weeks later the phone rang.
"This is Charley Niehuis," a voice said. "I'm the guy who wrote that article in 1949, and I think I might still have the negatives to the photo you want. I took several photographs of that deer. It was in 1948 when I was working for the Arizona fish and game department on their Kaibab study. A guy named Dean Naylor killed that buck."
Niehuis explained that his negatives were in an office he maintained in Colorado and that he would be happy to provide prints. He gave me his phone number and mentioned that he was 83 years old.
Quote
(continued from page 11)
"As an old newsman," he said. "This story really interests me. I'm going to do some investigating of my own, but next time I'm in Colorado, I'll look for those pictures and get back to you."
I soon realized that the buck was listed twice in the Boone and Crockett Club's book, Records of North American Big Game, once under Dean Naylor and once under Kirt Darner. Coincidentally, I knew Jack Reneau, who had recently started working full time for the club. Jack and his wife, Susan, had featured several of Darner's mounts in a book that he and his wife, Susan, had written, "Colorado's Biggest Bucks and Bulls." After the publication of that book, I had contacted Jack and negotiated to buy several boxes to sell out of my booth at sport shows. The Reneaus' book and Darner's book had been great sellers, and though they didn't pay for our show expenses, my associates and I made enough to pay for our out-of-town meals and a bit more.
As I suspected, Jack was personally interested in investigating the matter for the same reason I was -- he had helped publicize Darner and now he felt an obligation that the public knew the truth.
"I know where the negatives to those photos that were published in 1949 are," I told Reneau. "I'll give you all the information I have on Darner's buck under one condition. When you get the photos, I want 8x10 prints of those original photos."
I also mentioned a couple of other suspicions I had about two other trophies Darner had taken. One was a desert sheep that was also in the record book, and another was a so-called Coues deer that would have surpassed the No. 2 or No. 3 listing. I sent to Jack copies of the Housholder photo along with slides that showed the American Rifleman picture reversed.
Some time went by, and I heard that the Boone and Crockett Club had pulled Darner's listing of the Naylor buck out of the record book. I was disappointed that I was not supplied with the photos I had demanded, so I called Reneau. He confirmed that the club had decided to disquality the Naylor/Housholder/Darner buck and also mentioned that the club had decided to reject a whitetail that Darner had entered as a Coues deer and was also deleting his Arizona desert sheep from the record book. The club had called in several experts on Coues deer and had decided to consider the rack as coming from a regular whitetail unless Darner were to supply adequate proof that it was a Coues deer. The club ruled that the ram had not been plugged and, hence, was not considered a legal harvest.
I was disappointed to learn that the Boone and Crockett Club had no plans to remove the rest of Darner's record-class trophies from its record book. At the time the Pope and Young Club had a policy that any hunter who was shown to have signed a fair chase affidavit falsely would be banned permanently from entering any animal in its record book. My assumption that B&C had a similar policy was wrong.
"Well, if you change that policy," I said, "I have since come up with information that calls into question some of Darner's other trophies."
About this time I received a call from Doyle Moss, who was working at the time for Darner's Hunter Information Service out of Montrose, Colorado. A Utah native and now a nationally known trophy hunter and guide and a hunting video producer, Moss asked about Darner's legitimacy. "I've been hearing some rumors," he said, "and I wonder if they're true."
"Well, I think you could get all the proof you needed right there in Colorado," I replied. And then I went on to say that Charles Niehuis had the negatives he had made in 1948 and that Niehuis was in Colorado or was soon gonig there. "Why don't you call him and arrange a meeting," I said. "I'll give you his phone number under one condition -- that I get 8x10 copies of those prints."
Later Niehuis told me that Moss had contacted him. At first he was fearful that he might be ambushed by an person with loyalty to Darner. But he was impressed with Moss's tone of voice and apparent sincerity and decided to risk meeting him.
To be continued tomorrow with Niehuis's account of his meeting with Moss and copies of the pictures I had been waiting so long to see
Quote
(continued from page 12)
Niehuis later wrote an outline for an autobiographical book that he proposed to write and sell. Here are excerpts dealing with his meeting with Moss, who was working at the time for Darner's Hunter Information Service in Montrose, Colorado:
"I leave to go to Montrose .... I go directly to the office of Tom Gilmore, Sheriff of Montrose County. I meet Tom, make known my purpose of being in Montrose. ... I am warned again that Kirt Darner and possibly Doyle Moss might be dangerous, and to avoid being trapped in a remote place by either one. ... I learn Doyle Moss has been on my trail making three long distance calls in one day wanting to know where I am staying, what kind of car I am driving, description, etc. ... So ... I go undercover, register under a false name and hide my car. The next morning I case the Darner Hunters Information Service ... but make no contact. Instead I go to the sheriff's office again and learn Bob Cox there is an investigator. Cox is known to me. ... I go the Stockman's Cafe ... and ... phone Doyle Moss to meet me there. I decide to take a chance, meet him in a place of my choosing, not his.
"Doyle Moss comes in. I recognize him because of his behavior and call him by name. ... We talk it over .... Doyle is a young man, 26 years of age. ... Although I already know it, I asked for his Social Security number. ... I ask the questions to get answers and verify what I have already learned. Doyle gives me more of his background and interest in Darner. He wants to show me some mounted heads, one with a bullet hole in the antler. ... Also, Doyle wants to show me where he lives, in a trailer house furnished by Darner. And he announces he has quit Darner.
"I decide to chance it. We go to his trailer and enter it. The front of the trailer is very barren of furniture. Interestingly, the walls are covered with photographs, paintings and sketches of Rocky Mountain Mule Deer. The amount and quality of the art surrounding a single subject is quite unusual. There are no other furnishings in the front room. This facet of his personality leads me to believe his driving interesting [is] hunting and hero worship of Kirt Darner. ... As a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, he does not have an ash tray in sight. ... I look his trailer over, including the bedroom which only has blankets on the floor. No bed on the floor. Every sign I read verifies his professing to be a Mormon. He serves me some lemonade.
"We step outside and at the truck I show him the pictures of Naylor and his buck. There is no question in his mind that is is the same buck that is on the cover of Darner's new book. Again I am told that Rich LaRocco wrote the book for Kirt Darner. ... Doyle again asks me for one of the photographs of Dean Naylor. I tell him I cannot spare one, but will make him one."
After Niehuis returned home, he sent Moss and me 8x10 copies of four photographs along with a note saying that they showed Dean Naylor and the buck he had just shot in 1948. The pictures were clear enough to show that the buck's antlers were the same antlers photographed with Housholder in 1957. The picture shown above even shows the unique bean-shaped bone deposit on the base of the right antler. Jim Zumbo photographed Darner with the same rack during the winter of 1980-1981, and this picture was used to illustrate Zumbo's article about Darner in the April 1981 issue of Outdoor Life magazine. That photo also is detailed enough to show the same bean-shaped deposit and other unique features. I was the senior editor for Outdoor Life in 1980 and 1981, and the first time I had heard of Darner was when Zumbo had proposed that piece. Later I learned that one of the Naylor pictures also had appeared in a 1951 hunting annual.
I photographed this same trophy with Darner during the winter of 1982-1983, and Darner selected one of those pictures for the cover of How to Find Giant Bucks that was published in 1983. Darner said that buck was one of his most prized trophies because he had seen the deer a year before he claimed to have shot it in 1977. He said he had just shot another great buck in the fall of 1976, and as it thrashed around on the ground in the last throes of life, a giant non-typical stepped out of the cover. He supposedly returned the following October and outsmarted the giant. He had told me this story several times, and the details had been so consistent that I was convinced Darner had shot the deer.
Interestingly, shortly before I had received the Housholder photo, Darner had requested my slides that I had made of him with his various trophies, and that is the last I have seen of them. Fortunately, Zumbo still had his slides when Reneau contacted him in the Boone and Crockett Club's investigation of the matter.
Originally Posted by shrapnel
I probably hit more elk with a pickup than you have with a rifle.
Originally Posted by JohnBurns
I have yet to see anyone claim Leupold has never had to fix an optic. I know I have sent a few back. 2 MK 6s, a VX-6, and 3 VX-111s.
Whttail in MT; Good afternoon to you sir, I hope you're getting as beautiful a day down in Montana as we've been blessed with and you're well.
I believe that is the buck which Dave Fuller killed in 2010 or maybe it was 2011? He farms around Strasbourg and is part of SynergyAG Crop services out of Govan. In the story about the buck he talked about not going into the office or harvesting so I can only assume it died not too, too far from either location - which are both an hourish north of Regina I want to say?
It's been decades since I've been through any part of that section of Saskatchewan sorry.
Funny where we farmed east of Yorkton there were never any mule deer as far as I can recall and my late father said the same thing, so from the early '30's to the early '80's when we left. My brother is still out there and reports mulies started showing up about 5 years back and he sees them often enough now it's not unusual.
Thanks for that information and confirmation, Dwayne. It is indeed a nice day down here. Oddly the wind isn't blowing too much so the low 40s are pleasant. I should be out getting some new scopes on paper.
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What are points there for, to be ignored??????
Its a pretty good book though for when it was written.
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