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We seem to have this obsession to get an exacting seating depth, jump to the lands etc for perfection. .001 off the lands or .050 can make be all I need and it must be precise. ( or devastating) Oh yes, and the powder charge measured on a high quality digital scale. Could these accuracy issues simply be a case of the case being out of alignment. Runnout? I fussed like seating depths myself late into the night, using micrometer seating dies. I thought rocket science was like that until I stumbled onto the GS Custom site and its owner. They make CNC , land riding bullets that are seated to the drive band and load development was quick and easy. Maybe this super uniform bullets should be started in a super uniform case? Most handloader's speed case prep, it can be a blurr and slow down to seat the bullet perfectly. I use a case gauge these days during the process now during case prep. Any thought about bullet runnout as the primary culprit?
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Accuracy for what purpose? Competition? Hunting? Or "just because"? Bragging rights maybe? Not judging, just asking. Bob www.bigbores.ca
"What shall it profit a man if he gain the whole world and lose his own soul" - Jesus
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Hi Bob, I am a hunter and shoot positions but the question goes beyond that and my skills. I just wonder about our obsession with the bullet seating is overdone a little, and dismissing the thing that holds it straight.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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We seem to have this obsession to get an exacting seating depth, jump to the lands etc for perfection. .001 off the lands or .050 can make be all I need and it must be precise. ( or devastating) Oh yes, and the powder charge measured on a high quality digital scale. Could these accuracy issues simply be a case of the case being out of alignment. Runnout? I fussed like seating depths myself late into the night, using micrometer seating dies. I thought rocket science was like that until I stumbled onto the GS Custom site and its owner. They make CNC , land riding bullets that are seated to the drive band and load development was quick and easy. Maybe this super uniform bullets should be started in a super uniform case? Most handloader's speed case prep, it can be a blurr and slow down to seat the bullet perfectly. I use a case gauge these days during the process now during case prep. Any thought about bullet runnout as the primary culprit? Can’t get the exact bullet distance to lands unless bullets are sorted by ogival length.
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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Slight variations in ogive are probably part of the reason so many newer bullets (and not just monolithics but lead-cored high-BC bullets) shoot very well when seated well off the lands. That, and tighter-diameter throats in many newer rifles, including factory rifles.
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.” John Steinbeck
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Campfire Kahuna
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Obsession is a condition known only to a few in the US anymore. Shooting Loonies are on that short list. Every gun and every trick we use to make them rise to our goals is subject to modification. Is a perfect way to keep fertile minds occupied.
FWIW, I have found that seemingly minor things (Infinite Menu) are surprisingly influential in our undertaking. Don't knock .001" until you beat it to death.
I am..........disturbed.
Concerning the difference between man and the jackass: some observers hold that there isn't any. But this wrongs the jackass. -Twain
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If you can afford to shoot GS-Customs. You should have someone else load your ammo.... I have shot them and I didnt think they were anything special accuracy wise..
From a standpoint of accuracy. Bench rest accuracy. Everything you listed and I few you didnt come into play. Run out is just one issue of many. dave
Only accurate rifles are interesting.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Runout is definitely a culprit, much more than small variations in powder charges. (That's assuming a well developed load to begin with.)
A while back I demonstrated this to a friend who had a couple of 308 rifles known to be good shooters with handloads I had assembled. My friend's grandfather-in-law had given him a large quantity of Lake City Match ammunition. I measured and segregated a bunch by runout and got him to shoot it, but I didn't tell him the details of what I'd done. Just shoot batch A on target A, batch B on target B, yadda yadda. The effects of runout were clear.
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Brass prep is important for accuracy, up to a point. Making your brass a nice shiny color by putting it in a polishing thing overnight...not important. Neck turning, not important, so long as you have sufficient clearance, no donuts, etc; otherwise neck uniforming could be very important, and so long as you can sort for neck thickness abnormality. Primer pocket, flash holes, etc etc probably not that important. A concentricity gauge will tell you a lot about your technique and results.
Seating depth is important for accuracy. Some bullets don't seem to mind, others seem to really feel their feels if you don't seat them at a depth they like.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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I think that we often make things much more complicated than is necessary. (But that is part of the fun, I guess.) I also think that we often fool ourselves into thinking that the issue upon which we are concentrating is having more effect than it actually is having, given all of the factors (those involving the production of the round, those that are environmental, those that have to do with the firearm, those that have to do with the shooter) that go into where the bullet actually winds up.
Last edited by 5sdad; 06/13/19.
Not a real member - just an ordinary guy who appreciates being able to hang around and say something once in awhile.
Happily Trapped In the Past (Thanks, Joe)
Not only a less than minimally educated person, but stupid and out of touch as well.
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PRESIDENT TRUMP 2024/2028 !!!!!!!!!!
Posted by Bristoe The people wringing their hands over Trump's rhetoric don't know what time it is in America.
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...Any thought about bullet runout as the primary culprit? I do not believe that is so. If you restrict the conversation to mechanisms, it's in there, but the problem with accuracy today is almost completely the fault of the Internets. We have better rifles, components and powders today, but humans are always are the weak link that fails the most. Both a shooter's skills and his mindset. For hunting, people think every rifle should be capable of 1/2 groups or less. Their expectations are too high, and come, in large part, from the Internets. More to the point, they are upset when their latest Cabelas purchase, a Remington 700 for example, cannot group as well as some of the target pix posted here and other boards. The majority shoot factory actions with factory barrels, cradled by factory plastic stocks with canted scopes. And factory ammunition. Some shooter's have questionable shooting skills. They scrunch up behind their rifle, and look like " a dog f*cking a football". There are people who give golf lessons, dance lessons, driving lessons, etc., but not many shooting instructors. And of them, most are handgun instructors. Bullet seating is just one thing in a list of things that make groups smaller. The most important way to shrink your groups is to practise shooting.
Safe Shooting! Steve Redgwell www.303british.comGet your facts first, then you can distort them as you please. - Mark Twain Member - Professional Outdoor Media Association of Canada
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Bullets made now days are not as temperamental about seating depth, but still like to be seated straight. Minimum run out is always key to helping attain good consistent accuracy. Regular ol die sets can be adjusted for minimum run out. My standard RCBS dies produce less than .003" TIR
I try to stick with the basics, they do so well. Nothing fancy mind you, just plain jane will get it done with style. You want to see an animal drop right now? Shoot him in the ear hole. BSA MAGA
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Campfire Tracker
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I discovered by accident that bullet seating depth sometimes influences accuracy. I was working up a 30-06 load of 180 grain Swift A-frames for hunting, using never fired cases. I knew nothing about seating depth and had the bullets seated well off the lands, all the same depth of course. With the powder used I started having compressed loads before I got to the max recommended so I seated the bullets out a bit for the last couple of half grain increments. I'd been getting quite poor groups, mostly 2 ½ or larger and one 2 inch. With the bullets seated out a bit, suddenly the groups dropped to ¾ and ½ inch. I backed down the load 3 half grain steps for my hunting load, and the groups stayed under an inch, The only change that I know about was seating depth.
That was in a skinny barreled Remington 700 mountain rifle. My guess is that the difference in seating depth produced a different harmonic in the barrel. All I know for sure was that seating the bullets farther out, in that case, resulted in much tighter groups – consistently for the next ten years of shooting them in that rifle.
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I seen bullet runout screw with accuracy. Most guys never check it, I have the hornady gauge and I will periodically check runout. If you have the tool to check runout a lot of you will be real surprised.
Then STFU. The rest of your statement is superflous bullshit with no real bearing on this discussion other than to massage your own ego. Suckin' on my titties like you wanted me.
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I seat my bullets to the COAL specified in the bullet mfr's. manual and have never concerned myself with the distance from the lands nor adjusting seating depth in the search for an accurate load. I have used dies from most major manufacturers and have been able to produce loads that yield adequate hunting accuracy. Recently I bought a concentricity check gage and found that my loads were concentric to .003". Regarding cases I deprime and clean, trim to length and deburr, no attention to them other than that. When starting with new brass I uniform the primer pocket depth and deburr the flash hole.
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I use Wilson hand dies or Redding and Forster bushing dies and micrometer style seaters almost exclusively. Those Whidden dies look great too but have yet to try them.
I check all reloads for run-out, hunting and target, on my Jones Custom Products concentricity gauge that I've had for about thirty years. Very seldom get run-out of more than .002" mostly .0005"-0015". Obviously for target shooting, rifle accuracy and your own shooting ability are paramount. However, does it really matter for hunting? Not at the short to medium ranges I shoot deer, but I can't help myself and still check every round for run-out.
Bullet seating depth regarding accuracy, is dependant on the particular rifle, the particular bullet, the powder charge and probably the type of powder and of course magazine length if you're using one. Nothing is set in concrete. Being reloaders and particularly if you've done bench rest or other precision shooting, it's generally deeply ingrained to try and get the absolute most accuracy out of your reloads, whether needed or not.
"The 257 Roberts, some people like to call it the “.257 Bob.” I think these people should be hung in trees where crows can peck at them." - David Petzal
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Campfire 'Bwana
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I use Wilson hand dies or Redding and Forster bushing dies and micrometer style seaters almost exclusively. Those Whidden dies look great too but have yet to try them.
I check all reloads for run-out, hunting and target, on my Jones Custom Products concentricity gauge that I've had for about thirty years. Very seldom get run-out of more than .002" mostly .0005"-0015". Obviously for target shooting, rifle accuracy and your own shooting ability are paramount. However, does it really matter for hunting? Not at the short to medium ranges I shoot deer, but I can't help myself and still check every round for run-out.
Bullet seating depth regarding accuracy, is dependant on the particular rifle, the particular bullet, the powder charge and probably the type of powder and of course magazine length if you're using one. Nothing is set in concrete. Being reloaders and particularly if you've done bench rest or other precision shooting, it's generally deeply ingrained to try and get the absolute most accuracy out of your reloads, whether needed or not. You set your dies up right and the need to check every round is pointless.... no longer needed. Especially with those fancy type dies you have. I get .003" and less TIR with my regular ol RCBS dies. The proof is always on the target too.. . Some guys put far too much time and effort and money into this chit and then still end up sub par..
I try to stick with the basics, they do so well. Nothing fancy mind you, just plain jane will get it done with style. You want to see an animal drop right now? Shoot him in the ear hole. BSA MAGA
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Well, you may be right about that but I'm semi retired so I have plenty of time. Also, my 6.5 Creedmoor Tikka T3x will do better than the group of your 338 WM and my new Sako Finnlight II .308 will too with it's preferred load. So maybe, I'm not wasting my time after all and besides it's winter here and I don't feel like going deer hunting.
"The 257 Roberts, some people like to call it the “.257 Bob.” I think these people should be hung in trees where crows can peck at them." - David Petzal
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I have rifles capable of shooting far better then I can. Sometimes I futz around with micro tuning a load but most of the time I just load to known specs shoot a couple for groups and velocity and then go hunting. Many of the operations I do are just for my own satisfaction and to be good enough to eliminate unexpected flyers. Consistency and good set up are usually enough to do this. If the loaded rounds don't wobble around like Mexican jumping beans when rolled across a sheet of glass I call it good enough and don't even measure run out.
"When you disarm the people, you commence to offend them and show that you distrust them either through cowardice or lack of confidence, and both of these opinions generate hatred." Niccolo Machiavelli
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There is no question that tweaking seating depth can affect group size, I get that....but in a non-benchrest rifle, I have often wondered why factory rounds such as the Federal Gold Medal Match .308 shoots so darn good in so many different rifles just using a standard c.o.a.l. The average Joe reloader guy is very hard pressed to beat these premium factory offerings, it seems to me. Now sure, a bunch of fellows will pile on me here with endless pictures of tiny 3 shot groups, but I am talking real statistical aggregates of 20 shots or better yet the aggregate of an 80 or 100 shot NRA Hi-power match. As another example, factory rifle and cartridge, .257 Weatherby Mag. arguably one of the most store boughten accuracy champs on the market, I don't own one but folks say all Weatherby's have long throats to reduce pressures. So where does seating depth come into play there? More questions than answers.
Well this is a fine pickle we're in, should'a listened to Joe McCarthy and George Orwell I guess.
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Even with many experienced shooters, some here too. The opinions vary about seating a particular bullet, a particular way but nothing I have ever seen is absolute. Long throats and excessive runnout can't be good together, if the round is straight and symmetrical a long throat is ok. I am stating this and asking at the same time. My personal bias is a bullet should seat to the bottem of the neck and the neck should be symmetrical. The cartridge case's DNA duplicated exactly. If the case is true it is a fine starting point to start with A CNC machined bullet should have an advantage too. This is my theory, but how then does a 200.00 Savage rifle with cheap 20.00, factory stuff sometimes make all the this moot? Clear as mud and Happy Father's Day, folks. I enjoy the chatter.
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I have found that seating depth can very much affect accuracy. I start at the same place every time, no matter the rifle or cartrdge.......seat bullet .002 off or max mag length and go from there. When you start long there's only one way to go from there to find a good, accurate depth.
It is irrelevant what you think. What matters is the TRUTH.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Even with many experienced shooters, some here too. The opinions vary about seating a particular bullet, a particular way but nothing I have ever seen is absolute. Long throats and excessive runnout can't be good together, if the round is straight and symmetrical a long throat is ok. I am stating this and asking at the same time. My personal bias is a bullet should seat to the bottem of the neck and the neck should be symmetrical. The cartridge case's DNA duplicated exactly. If the case is true it is a fine starting point to start with A CNC machined bullet should have an advantage too. This is my theory, but how then does a 200.00 Savage rifle with cheap 20.00, factory stuff sometimes make all the this moot? Clear as mud and Happy Father's Day, folks. I enjoy the chatter. The diameter of the throat has an influence. A close fit to the bullet, say a half thou over bullet diameter, will help prevent alignment related problems.
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You set your dies up right and the need to check every round is pointless.... no longer needed. Especially with those fancy type dies you have. I get .003" and less TIR with my regular ol RCBS dies. The proof is always on the target too.. . Some guys put far too much time and effort and money into this chit and then still end up sub par.. Nice shoulders on those. I think your concentricity gauge might be missing a bearing.
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We seem to have this obsession to get an exacting seating depth, jump to the lands etc for perfection. .001 off the lands or .050 can make be all I need and it must be precise. ( or devastating) Oh yes, and the powder charge measured on a high quality digital scale. Could these accuracy issues simply be a case of the case being out of alignment. Runnout? I fussed like seating depths myself late into the night, using micrometer seating dies. I thought rocket science was like that until I stumbled onto the GS Custom site and its owner. They make CNC , land riding bullets that are seated to the drive band and load development was quick and easy. Maybe this super uniform bullets should be started in a super uniform case? Most handloader's speed case prep, it can be a blurr and slow down to seat the bullet perfectly. I use a case gauge these days during the process now during case prep. Any thought about bullet runnout as the primary culprit? Unless you are a benchrest shooter.....not just a hunter.....I consider most of this to be analysis paralaysis. One would be better served by spending more time at a good shooting range getting acclimated to his rifle.
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Campfire Ranger
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PRESIDENT TRUMP 2024/2028 !!!!!!!!!!
Posted by Bristoe The people wringing their hands over Trump's rhetoric don't know what time it is in America.
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Fourth Generation Border Rat
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We seem to have this obsession to get an exacting seating depth, jump to the lands etc for perfection. .001 off the lands or .050 can make be all I need and it must be precise. ( or devastating) Oh yes, and the powder charge measured on a high quality digital scale. Could these accuracy issues simply be a case of the case being out of alignment. Runnout? I fussed like seating depths myself late into the night, using micrometer seating dies. I thought rocket science was like that until I stumbled onto the GS Custom site and its owner. They make CNC , land riding bullets that are seated to the drive band and load development was quick and easy. Maybe this super uniform bullets should be started in a super uniform case? Most handloader's speed case prep, it can be a blurr and slow down to seat the bullet perfectly. I use a case gauge these days during the process now during case prep. Any thought about bullet runnout as the primary culprit? Unless you are a benchrest shooter.....not just a hunter.....I consider most of this to be analysis paralaysis. One would be better served by spending more time at a good shooting range getting acclimated to his rifle. Good advice. I learned reloading and shooting with a 38 Special and a 32 Winchester Special. Seating depth was not much of an option, just seat to the crimping groove and crimp. It wasn't until decades later I heard how much I was giving up not tailoring my bullet seating depth.
Brushbuster: "Is this thread about the dear heard or there Jeans?" Plugger: "If you cant be safe at strip club in Detroit at 2am is anywhere safe?" Deer are somewhere all the time To report a post you disagree with, please push Alt + F4. Thank You.
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I use to jump thru all kinds of hoops to get my groups to fit under a dime in my hunting rifles. I pretty much stopped that since it's not even relevant to my big game hunting. Being able to shoot and hit things from off hand to field rests and do it quickly because big game then not to hang around forever. Once I stopped with the endless load development, I started to enjoy shooting a lot more. I hand load my ammo in small batches, It has to feed and extract without issue. And I choose bullets that are suitable for the game I am hunting. We all go thru these phases. I was no different when I started. All rifles are individuals just like ourselves, no two will ever be exactly alike. That makes the whole thing fun, but endless load development is just another Black Hole in my opinion. I have load combinations that I have hunted with going on for more than 40 years now. Yes, there are variations in power from lot to lot and bullets have gotten better over that period of time. And yeah the load in question does shoot a bit better accuracy wise, I chalk that up to bullets being more concentric, better optics, and my own eyesight, I can see way better now at when I was 19. These days it's not all that hard or time consuming to come up with a good accurate reliable hunting load these days. The marksmanship skills where it will pay off well that takes a lot more time, effort and money than most will ever do. Those sorts try to make up for it with the latest and greatest gadget, rifle-sights, cartridge and bullet as a sub for spending the time shooting in a constructive way.
"Any idiot can face a crisis,it's the day-to-day living that wears you out."
Anton Chekhov
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