Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Hunter's Campfire For Christians,non-Christians & Atheists

I would not claim to know the motivation of any man.

Why did Joseph Smith do the things he did? it lead to his murder and that of his brother.

David Koresh died for his actions along with many of his acaccolytes.

Martyrs can be found throughout human history. And most for reasons less benign than attempting to guide the Hebrew church toward a kinder and gentler path.

You are misunderstanding the meaning of "Heaven" and "Earth".

If you knew the scriptures, you would understand that Heaven refers here to the priesthood and earth to the people.

Israel, in this context, did "pass away" in 70AD.


Tim

I am sure the fault is in my writing, as you are demonstrably a discerning and learned individual.

But it appears I am not making the intention of my posts clear to you. I see no action of any deity in the matter being discussed..

I see a man gathering sticks in violation of the law executed by a domineering political system. Much like the peasants in Tienamen Square, or any worker who dared speak out against Lenin or Stalin.

No one is sitting in Hell becauseb Hell is a fiction invented by the priests to scare Ignorant peasants into compliance and keep the temple supplied with food, wine, and gold.

I will venture a guess. I figure it was the same reason i told on the fire of me and Buck Wright hunting early one morning in south Texas and having 3 UFOs fly over us. I had always wondered if any ufo stories were true. I thot it was important for people to know the truth in case a they ever encountered a similar event.

I figure they wanted people to know the truth about a much more important event. I figure they felt people should know the truth and the Good News about their creator and Jesus and forgiveness and everlasting life.

They saw something that precluded them from wanting the sins of others from falling on their heads for not warning them.

The authority of England was challenged on the basis of what the colonists believed to be a violation a moral code for just government. It was not based on a lone ranger shaking his sticks.

What I said is that the NT prophesied that the end times would have a plethora of deceptions and false Christs and in this environment Christ would continue to build His church. The church is wherever people gather and organize themselves and around the NT and follow Jesus' teachings. Actually I said that days ago as well.

It simply means the law will be fulfilled before the end of the earth. The law has been fulfilled and earth is still here. It's pretty simple to understand if you make an honest inquiry, look at the context, and apply some common sense..

Yes it is obvious they cannot all be correct. What is the basis by which skepticism makes a determination that none are true? Is it too mind boggling for a skeptic to seek truth? Perhaps its easier to dismiss them all and create their truth but never tell us the basis from which they establish their skepticism.

A fair question but we have spent pages offering evidence that no other religious book can make.
1. clear moral guidance at the outset of alphabetic writing
2.Fulfilled prophecies on a scale that no other book can match
3. more manuscript evidence than any other ancient book
4. a claim and proof that Jesus lived as a man, was crucified, and rose again you can go back and read it all
5. ancient critics acknowledging the life and death of Jesus but not being able to provide evidence that He did not rise

But we have no evidence to validate him as a prophet

Correct which is why we let that ultimately in God's hands. But they were not seeking to overthrow faith or morality, rather they were seeking to establish it on a higher level. They sought the wisdom and guidance of God in public prayer and fasting. They all testified that they would have lost had not divine providence aided them. A skeptic would never be able to establish a beneficent country like our founders because they would begin with rejecting God, His morals, and would create their own truth and reality.We know what happens when that occurs because that is what the Nazis and Communists did.Such countries commit atrocities with impunity because their is no moral accountability.

Martyrdom without empirical evidence is fanaticism. Martyrdom on the basis of verifiable truth and principle is courage.

I understood your post.

My response was for the benefit of the believers who are blind to the moral equivalence you draw above.

Of course I see no evidence for a hell either. It's just interesting to so see who bible thumping patriots can't see the consequence of their own interpretations scripture.

Also martyrdom that is based on courage because right now your side is winning is not on par with NT martyrdom which says I willingly die for the truth and if I had the power to take your life because we have a religious difference, I would not.

It is right to disobey government when God's laws are contravened. We obey government insofar as it does not contradict God's law.

The question is whether the government itself should be morally accountable to the governed. If you say it is not accountable, then all the governed are treated as Barbary pirates if they resist and the government operates without moral accountability.

Our forefathers were children of the Enlightenment, which was a movement toward science and away from Faith. As mentioned before, a good many were at least deist, the equivalent of being an Atheist in their day, and Jefferson's personal version of the Bible was highly modified.....

As for your claim about skeptics and government, keep in mind, Philosophical Skepticism is not limited to theistic claims, but is a method to evaluate all truth claims. In their day, Skeptics questioned the claims of Plato, Aristotle, Stoics, Scholasticism, and metaphysical claims beyond theism.

The philosophies of Hobbs and Spinoza, were both highly skeptical, and the skepticism of Hume and Kant greatly influenced Locke. The society you live in today was influences by skepticism way more than you realize.

So how many times is God, and how many times is specifically the Christian God mentioned in the Constitution of the United States?

Not according to Romans:

Romans 13:1-2: "Obey the government, for God is the One who has put it there. There is no government anywhere that God has not placed in power. So those who refuse to obey the law of the land are refusing to obey God, and punishment will follow."

Repeating the same disproven claims over and over does not change the fact that your claims are not true.

Not completely, according to what I was taught in Sabbath School. One is always subject to the law of the land.

The best example cited is always the Sabbath. When keeping the proper Sabbath becomes unlawful, as it assuredly will because keeping a false Sabbath is "The Mark of the Beast". One will peacefully submit to any criminal punishments meted out for criminal infractions of that law up to and including death.

Thereby one's place in heaven will be assured.