|
|
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 1,066
Campfire Regular
|
OP
Campfire Regular
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 1,066 |
New to the caliber from a reloading standpoint.... just made a deal on here in the Classifieds for a Winchester M70 Heavy Barrel Varmint. 26" heavy barrel, 1:9 twist.
I bought a bunch of 77gr Nosler Custom Competition bullets years ago at SPS with different ideas in mind, and they've say patiently since.
A little google-fu indicates that these should be good candidates for shooting in the new-to-me Winchester.
What powders are good for this? Saw a little bit referencing either/both RL15 and Varget. Seems like a lot of good 308 powders are mentioned with the 223...?
I also have a hunting rifle 308 to start loading for my kid. A powder I can use in a few rifles means I can justify (read = rationalize) buying an 8lber vs 1lb jars.
4064 too fast?
Thanks, all.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2015
Posts: 13,258 Likes: 2
Campfire Outfitter
|
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Aug 2015
Posts: 13,258 Likes: 2 |
8208 XBR, TAC, Varget, H4895, RL15 are all good. I've never tried 4064.
Let's Go Brandon! FJB
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 2,066
Campfire Regular
|
Campfire Regular
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 2,066 |
I shot a ton of Varget with heavy bullets in my 223.
It was just so good, I didn't experiment any more.
"243/85TSX It's as if the HAMMER OF THOR were wielded by CHUCK NORRIS himself, and a roundhouse kick thrown in for good measure."
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 13,218 Likes: 4
Campfire Outfitter
|
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 13,218 Likes: 4 |
Push them fast, 1-9” might be a little slow for optimum performance. The extra barrel length will help. https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbt...-eldm-advice-in-a-1-8-tikka#Post13634027Varget did for me with 75 ELDM in a 1-8” Tikka. P
Obey lawful commands. Video interactions. Hold bad cops accountable. Problem solved.
~Molɔ̀ːn Labé Skýla~
Member #547
Join date 3/09/2001
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 1,066
Campfire Regular
|
|
OP
Campfire Regular
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 1,066 |
So I was mistaken. The bullets I have are 80’s.
They’re loooooooong. Probably not a good fit for this rig.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 13,218 Likes: 4
Campfire Outfitter
|
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 13,218 Likes: 4 |
Buy some 75 ELDM. Try my recipe (work up) and let me know.
P
Obey lawful commands. Video interactions. Hold bad cops accountable. Problem solved.
~Molɔ̀ːn Labé Skýla~
Member #547
Join date 3/09/2001
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 42,873 Likes: 8
Campfire 'Bwana
|
|
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 42,873 Likes: 8 |
So I was mistaken. The bullets I have are 80’s.
They’re loooooooong. Probably not a good fit for this rig. they will work just fine.... it can still push 80s from a bolt action in the 2700 to 2800 fps MV without being over SAAMI specs...and they will stabilize just fine with a one in 9 twist. Make a dummy round, and see how far into the case body you have to seat it to clear the throat limitation of your rreceiver... i have a single shot Savage BVSS in 223 with a one in 9.... its a very accurate target rifle with those longer bullets...
"Minus the killings, Washington has one of the lowest crime rates in the Country" Marion Barry, Mayor of Wash DC
“Owning guns is not a right. If it were a right, it would be in the Constitution.” ~Alexandria Ocasio Cortez
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 6,672
Campfire Tracker
|
|
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 6,672 |
If the 80's don't work for you, hunt up some 75 Hornady HPBT or drop down to the 68 - 69 gr versions. Powders that are good in both are pretty easy, my list parallels NVhntr's.
'Four legs good, two legs baaaad."
----------------------------------------------
"Jimmy, some of it's magic,
Some of it's tragic,
But I had a good life all the way."
(Jimmy Buffett)
SotG
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 14,488
Campfire Outfitter
|
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 14,488 |
Here's what QuickLOAD spits out when asked for a list of powders suitable for that combination. The results actually included a lot more, but I edited out the absurd stuff that suggested 114% case fill, or predicted 87% of the powder would be burned, etc I was surprised to see Varget so far down the list, but real world results may be quite different from these predictions. Barrel Length : 26.0 inch = 660.4 mm
Predicted Data for Indicated Charges of the Following Powders.
Matching Maximum Pressure: 55000 psi, or 379 MPa
or a maximum loading ratio or filling of 114 %
These calculations refer to your specified settings in QuickLOAD 'Cartridge Dimensions' window.
C A U T I O N : any load listed can result in a powder charge that falls below minimum suggested
loads or exceeds maximum suggested loads as presented in current handloading manuals. Understand
that all of the listed powders can be unsuitable for the given combination of cartridge, bullet
and gun. Actual load order can vary, depending upon lot-to-lot powder and component variations.
USE ONLY FOR COMPARISON !
38 loads produced a Loading Ratio below user-defined minimum of 70%. These powders have been skipped.
Powder type Filling/Loading Ratio Charge Charge Vel. Prop.Burnt P max P muzz B_Time
% Grains Gramm fps % psi psi ms
--------------------------------- -----------------------------------------------------------------
Hodgdon CFE223 98.8 23.8 1.54 2836 98.4 55000 6370 1.203
IMR 3031 105.5 21.3 1.38 2833 100.0 55000 5779 1.205
IMR 4895 104.1 22.5 1.46 2829 98.2 55000 6375 1.214
Ramshot Big Game 104.6 24.1 1.56 2826 97.8 55000 6334 1.204
Winchester 748 96.9 22.5 1.46 2824 99.6 55000 6082 1.206
Hodgdon BL-C2 99.4 23.5 1.52 2824 99.0 55000 6282 1.214
Accurate 4064 108.2 22.9 1.48 2818 100.0 55000 5954 1.240
Alliant Reloder-15 104.8 22.7 1.47 2812 97.6 55000 6295 1.217
Accurate 2495 102.0 21.6 1.40 2806 100.0 55000 5704 1.245
Accurate 2520 99.9 22.8 1.48 2805 99.8 55000 5932 1.225
Hodgdon H4895 100.9 21.8 1.41 2800 98.6 55000 6153 1.221
Ramshot Wild Boar 99.2 22.9 1.49 2795 98.0 55000 6163 1.215
Alliant AR-Comp 100.4 21.0 1.36 2794 100.0 55000 5319 1.210
IMR 4320 106.4 22.6 1.47 2785 97.8 55000 6046 1.207
Vihtavuori N540 104.2 22.8 1.48 2780 100.0 55000 5882 1.221
Hodgdon H335 91.8 21.7 1.40 2779 100.0 55000 5774 1.219
Norma 202 101.9 21.7 1.40 2779 100.0 55000 5767 1.224
Hodgdon H322 97.2 20.4 1.32 2773 100.0 55000 5576 1.215
Vihtavuori N530 97.0 21.1 1.37 2772 99.1 55000 5910 1.221
Norma 201 102.3 21.6 1.40 2764 99.0 55000 5907 1.237
IMR 8208 XBR 99.1 21.4 1.39 2762 99.0 55000 5833 1.223
Hodgdon VARGET 106.7 22.3 1.45 2760 97.3 55000 5998 1.218
Accurate 2460 94.9 22.1 1.43 2757 99.5 55000 5743 1.240
Vihtavuori N140 104.0 22.1 1.43 2751 100.0 55000 5528 1.224
Ramshot TAC 98.3 22.9 1.49 2745 95.3 55000 6019 1.228
Accurate 2230 94.3 22.1 1.43 2740 98.6 55000 5729 1.235
Alliant Reloder-12 96.8 21.3 1.38 2738 100.0 55000 5432 1.225
Ramshot X-Terminator 95.8 22.1 1.43 2735 97.8 55000 5810 1.231
Alliant Reloder-10x 94.5 19.3 1.25 2733 100.0 55000 5216 1.236
Accurate 2015 97.4 20.2 1.31 2722 100.0 55000 5170 1.243
Hodgdon Benchmark 97.5 20.8 1.35 2717 99.3 55000 5542 1.232
Accurate 2200 89.1 19.6 1.27 2715 99.8 55000 5419 1.230
Norma 200 90.7 19.2 1.24 2712 100.0 55000 5073 1.254
Don't be the darkness.
America will perish while those who should be standing guard are satisfying their lusts.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 1,066
Campfire Regular
|
|
OP
Campfire Regular
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 1,066 |
Thanks all!
Probably be a couple weeks till I have the rifle in hand. I’ll let you all know how it pans out.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 4,293
Campfire Tracker
|
|
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 4,293 |
Varget.
Seafire has a ton of .223 info. Get on his good side and you'll be good to go.
I'd rather die in a BAD gunfight than a GOOD nursing home.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 42,873 Likes: 8
Campfire 'Bwana
|
|
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 42,873 Likes: 8 |
Varget.
Seafire has a ton of .223 info. Get on his good side and you'll be good to go. who's that guy? never heard of him...
"Minus the killings, Washington has one of the lowest crime rates in the Country" Marion Barry, Mayor of Wash DC
“Owning guns is not a right. If it were a right, it would be in the Constitution.” ~Alexandria Ocasio Cortez
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 7,202 Likes: 1
Campfire Tracker
|
|
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 7,202 Likes: 1 |
1-9 twist shilen would not stabalize the 75g a max at 3000 fps in a 223 ai
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 13,218 Likes: 4
Campfire Outfitter
|
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 13,218 Likes: 4 |
1-9 twist shilen would not stabalize the 75g a max at 3000 fps in a 223 ai 26” barrel?
Obey lawful commands. Video interactions. Hold bad cops accountable. Problem solved.
~Molɔ̀ːn Labé Skýla~
Member #547
Join date 3/09/2001
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 4,293
Campfire Tracker
|
|
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 4,293 |
Varget.
Seafire has a ton of .223 info. Get on his good side and you'll be good to go. who's that guy? never heard of him... He's a guy that can eat a full plate of my wife's cookies after saying "well i don't mind if I try a couple".
I'd rather die in a BAD gunfight than a GOOD nursing home.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 42,873 Likes: 8
Campfire 'Bwana
|
|
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 42,873 Likes: 8 |
Varget.
Seafire has a ton of .223 info. Get on his good side and you'll be good to go. who's that guy? never heard of him... He's a guy that can eat a full plate of my wife's cookies after saying "well i don't mind if I try a couple". I know a guy like that.... irksome ain't it? but I'd bet those cookies were awfully darn good! hope he told ya to tell your wife that fact....
"Minus the killings, Washington has one of the lowest crime rates in the Country" Marion Barry, Mayor of Wash DC
“Owning guns is not a right. If it were a right, it would be in the Constitution.” ~Alexandria Ocasio Cortez
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 1,066
Campfire Regular
|
|
OP
Campfire Regular
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 1,066 |
I've had more than one source suggest the Hornady 75gr HPBT. Any others that are pretty solid choices for this twist? If I'm gonna buy some bullets, no sense in reinventing the wheel, so to speak.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 78,306 Likes: 2
Campfire Oracle
|
|
Campfire Oracle
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 78,306 Likes: 2 |
I've had more than one source suggest the Hornady 75gr HPBT. Any others that are pretty solid choices for this twist? If I'm gonna buy some bullets, no sense in reinventing the wheel, so to speak.
If you are looking for game bullets I'd sure try 62 Gr. Speer Gold Dots...in varmint/target bullets the 68 Gr. Hornady BTHP...and the 60 gr NBT
Last edited by ingwe; 07/29/19.
"...the left considers you vermin, and they'll kill you given the chance..." Bristoe
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 1,066
Campfire Regular
|
|
OP
Campfire Regular
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 1,066 |
Not really looking to kill big game with it. I do have some 64gr Nosler BSB’s though for that possibility.
I’d be looking for range and woodchuck ammo.
I’ll check out those recommendations. Thanks!
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 42,873 Likes: 8
Campfire 'Bwana
|
|
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 42,873 Likes: 8 |
Either the 68BTHP or the 75 BTHP from Hornady...
powder options for both accuracy and velocity....
28 grains of H 380
27 grains of RL 15...
27 grains of IMR 4320...
24 grains of H 322...
25 grains of Benchmark.
25 grains of 4064, H4895 or IMR 4895.
I like S & B primers...SR
"Minus the killings, Washington has one of the lowest crime rates in the Country" Marion Barry, Mayor of Wash DC
“Owning guns is not a right. If it were a right, it would be in the Constitution.” ~Alexandria Ocasio Cortez
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 1,066
Campfire Regular
|
|
OP
Campfire Regular
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 1,066 |
Thank you very much for that info.
Does seem like a lot of commonality in powder selections here with the 308 Winchester, which means I may point my copy of Quickload at a few of these and run some numbers, then do likewise for the 308 (my daughter's new-to-her deer rifle is a 308) and see if there's one that I like in both and buy into an 8lb jug of it. 4320 is one I'm eyeballing hard. I have a real good load for my 35 Whelen with that already. It's liked in the 308 to a degree, and now appears here. I like simplifying my logistics if I can.
I also have a few lbs of Benchmark in stock already. I could always shoot that up to start, too.
Thanks again...I really appreciate. I probably won't have the rifle for another couple of weeks, but once I get it, I'll try to get some range work in and post some results.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 6,672
Campfire Tracker
|
|
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 6,672 |
I don't think you said how old your daughter is, that Benchmark would be good for slightly reduced loads in the .308 if that is desired.
'Four legs good, two legs baaaad."
----------------------------------------------
"Jimmy, some of it's magic,
Some of it's tragic,
But I had a good life all the way."
(Jimmy Buffett)
SotG
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 1,066
Campfire Regular
|
|
OP
Campfire Regular
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 1,066 |
My daughter is 16. She hunted with my 30-06 last year and isn’t terribly recoil-sensitive. I’m not sure she’s ready for me to put the pedal to the metal on a 308 yet, but moderate to warm loads shouldn’t present any issues.
When she needed reduced recoil loads, I used H4895 with good results.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 4,755
Campfire Tracker
|
|
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 4,755 |
I've had more than one source suggest the Hornady 75gr HPBT. Any others that are pretty solid choices for this twist? If I'm gonna buy some bullets, no sense in reinventing the wheel, so to speak.
If you want a really solid choice for a 1:9 twist - the 69gr SMK is your huckleberry. That bullet doesn't get a lot of press lately because at long range it falls behind the 75/77gr stuff, but it's a very accurate bullet. It's really easy to get that one to shoot itty bitty groups with a wide variety of powders, and sometimes a bullet that's easy to work with is more valuable than something more streamlined that's picky about loads. My preference for the 69 SMK is to use X-Terminator with a max load for high speed, or use Benchmark or 8208 XBR for a little milder load that still runs faster than Varget. Also of note - I did not find the same flexibility and ease of load development in the newer Sierra tipped matchkings (TMK); they were definitely more picky about good loads. One other option if you want more of a game bullet is the 65gr Sierra Gameking; it loads and shoots similar to the 69 SMK and likes similar loads, but is a soft point for shooting meat.
Last edited by Yondering; 07/30/19.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 1,066
Campfire Regular
|
|
OP
Campfire Regular
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 1,066 |
That 69gr SMK sounds like a good place to start.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 23,123 Likes: 2
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 23,123 Likes: 2 |
I guess nobody shoots 50-55 grainers anymore...
"You can lead a man to logic, but you cannot make him think." Joe Harz
"Always certain, often right." Keith McCafferty
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 44,882 Likes: 9
Campfire 'Bwana
|
|
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 44,882 Likes: 9 |
50 grain Bergers shoot great in mine with TAC powder.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 8,697 Likes: 1
Campfire Outfitter
|
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 8,697 Likes: 1 |
I guess nobody shoots 50-55 grainers anymore... 50-55’s with either LT32 or Benchmark are dandy loads.
Swifty
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 6,672
Campfire Tracker
|
|
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 6,672 |
55 gr Hornady or Sierra and a near-full case of TAC is one of my go-to loads.
'Four legs good, two legs baaaad."
----------------------------------------------
"Jimmy, some of it's magic,
Some of it's tragic,
But I had a good life all the way."
(Jimmy Buffett)
SotG
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2015
Posts: 19,239 Likes: 2
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Nov 2015
Posts: 19,239 Likes: 2 |
I guess nobody shoots 50-55 grainers anymore... That's pretty much all I shoot in the 223. If I want to shoot a heavier bullet, I'll shoot a 243. I know I'm pretty old fashioned, but I still look at the 223 as being a cartridge for varmints, not bigger game, and the 223 IMO performs best with bullets in the 50-55 grain weight. I have loaded and shot a few of the 75-78 grain bullets, and probably will try some more at some point in time, but otherwise I'll stick to the old tried and true bullets.....the 50-55 weights.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 24,632 Likes: 30
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 24,632 Likes: 30 |
I guess nobody shoots 50-55 grainers anymore... New bullets have changed the 223. Guys that want improved ballistics have gone to 40 grain bullets and have made the 223 a 22-250. Then there are the guys shooting heavier bullets and made the 223 a 45-70...
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 13,218 Likes: 4
Campfire Outfitter
|
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 13,218 Likes: 4 |
At 500 yards it’s easier to hit a sage rat (circa a skinny dollar bill) with a 75 ELDM (bc .467) than a 50 BT (bc. 238).
P
Obey lawful commands. Video interactions. Hold bad cops accountable. Problem solved.
~Molɔ̀ːn Labé Skýla~
Member #547
Join date 3/09/2001
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 24,632 Likes: 30
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 24,632 Likes: 30 |
At 500 yards it’s easier to hit a sage rat (circa a skinny dollar bill) with a 75 ELDM (bc .467) than a 50 BT (bc. 238).
P That is like throwin a rock. If you throw far enough you can hit anything. A 223 isn’t a very good 500 yard gun with either bullet...
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2015
Posts: 19,239 Likes: 2
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Nov 2015
Posts: 19,239 Likes: 2 |
If I'm going to be shooting at something 500 yards away, a 223 would not be my first choice......or second......or third.....and so on and so forth.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 13,218 Likes: 4
Campfire Outfitter
|
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 13,218 Likes: 4 |
When you’re shooting sage rats 300 yards and in gets boring. I practice out to 600 yards, it makes closer shots seem easier. And you might be surprised at how good a .223 is at distance. BC of .467 and mv of 2934 is a good combination. My brother won the dollar this year for the farthest first-shot kill, 650+ IIRC. First shot only, you don’t get to walk them in. The farthest kill was using the 50 grain BT.
P
Obey lawful commands. Video interactions. Hold bad cops accountable. Problem solved.
~Molɔ̀ːn Labé Skýla~
Member #547
Join date 3/09/2001
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2018
Posts: 98
Campfire Greenhorn
|
|
Campfire Greenhorn
Joined: Feb 2018
Posts: 98 |
Varget .... Works great in the 308 as well
I thought growing old would take longer.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 11,586 Likes: 6
Campfire Outfitter
|
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 11,586 Likes: 6 |
If you think a 9 twist is going to stabilize a 75 Greiner in a 223 you better live on top of a very tall Hill
Last edited by ldholton; 08/01/19.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 2,936 Likes: 1
Campfire Regular
|
|
Campfire Regular
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 2,936 Likes: 1 |
If you think a 9 twist is going to stabilize a 75 Greiner in a 223 you better live on top of a very tall Hill I have a Stevens 200 .223 with a 1/9 twist which is stabilize a 75 gr Hornady HPBT out to 500 yards with authority at 500' ASL. That same barrel won't stabilize a 75 gr AMAX at 100 yards. It's all about the length of the bullet as well as weight. Crazy as it sounds, I have a Tikka .223 1/10 twist which will stabilize the same Hornady 75 gr HPBT bullet at 100 yards. I have not shot it at distance but it was able to give me < 1 MOA groups @ 100 yds. I have not measured the barrel twist to verify the 1/10 that's stamped on the barrel. It also stabilizes 69 gr SMKs out to 500 yards.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 13,218 Likes: 4
Campfire Outfitter
|
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 13,218 Likes: 4 |
My 1-10” won’t shoot the 75 ELDM load worth a hoot.
P
Obey lawful commands. Video interactions. Hold bad cops accountable. Problem solved.
~Molɔ̀ːn Labé Skýla~
Member #547
Join date 3/09/2001
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2015
Posts: 19,239 Likes: 2
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Nov 2015
Posts: 19,239 Likes: 2 |
I have a Remington 700 with the 1-9 twist, and have shot 75 and 78 grain bullets out to 300 yards accurately.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 8,073
Campfire Outfitter
|
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 8,073 |
I guess nobody shoots 50-55 grainers anymore... New bullets have changed the 223. Guys that want improved ballistics have gone to 40 grain bullets and have made the 223 a 22-250. Then there are the guys shooting heavier bullets and made the 223 a 45-70... Be careful a little common sense could hurt feelings. Hasbeen
hasbeen
(Better a has been than a never was!)
NRA Patron member
Try to live your life where the preacher doesn't have to lie at your funeral
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 23,123 Likes: 2
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 23,123 Likes: 2 |
One would think that everybody has access to long range shooting opportunities, or even wants to. Rifle ranges with target butts beyond 200 yards are a rarity around here. Opportunities for shooting woodchucks, etc., at long distances are slim. On a personal level I just don't need/want long heavy expensive VLD's for punching paper at 100 yards. For the little bit I've used a .223 for deer (where shots over 100 yards are almost unheard of) I found 55 cup and cores to be ok (with a brief fling with 50 TSX's, which were ok too). I guess nobody shoots 50-55 grainers anymore... New bullets have changed the 223. Guys that want improved ballistics have gone to 40 grain bullets and have made the 223 a 22-250. Then there are the guys shooting heavier bullets and made the 223 a 45-70... Be careful a little common sense could hurt feelings. Hasbeen
"You can lead a man to logic, but you cannot make him think." Joe Harz
"Always certain, often right." Keith McCafferty
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 4,755
Campfire Tracker
|
|
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 4,755 |
One would think that everybody has access to long range shooting opportunities, or even wants to. Rifle ranges with target butts beyond 200 yards are a rarity around here. Opportunities for shooting woodchucks, etc., at long distances are slim. On a personal level I just don't need/want long heavy expensive VLD's for punching paper at 100 yards. For the little bit I've used a .223 for deer (where shots over 100 yards are almost unheard of) I found 55 cup and cores to be ok (with a brief fling with 50 TSX's, which were ok too).
And that's the difference - a lot of us have access to much longer distances, and enjoy shooting them, so heavier high-b.c. bullets make more sense. Personally I still use Midsouth's 50gr "varmint nightmare" bulk bullets for varmint shooting sometimes, but that's not my primary load because my 223/5.56 rifles are useful for a much wider range than just varmint shooting and 100 yard paper punching. Nothing wrong with an old-school 50gr SP if that's what works for your shooting, but it's a bit disingenuous to act put-out about the world moving on to new advancements.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 24,632 Likes: 30
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 24,632 Likes: 30 |
One would think that everybody has access to long range shooting opportunities, or even wants to. Rifle ranges with target butts beyond 200 yards are a rarity around here. Opportunities for shooting woodchucks, etc., at long distances are slim. On a personal level I just don't need/want long heavy expensive VLD's for punching paper at 100 yards. For the little bit I've used a .223 for deer (where shots over 100 yards are almost unheard of) I found 55 cup and cores to be ok (with a brief fling with 50 TSX's, which were ok too).
And that's the difference - a lot of us have access to much longer distances, and enjoy shooting them, so heavier high-b.c. bullets make more sense. Personally I still use Midsouth's 50gr "varmint nightmare" bulk bullets for varmint shooting sometimes, but that's not my primary load because my 223/5.56 rifles are useful for a much wider range than just varmint shooting and 100 yard paper punching. Nothing wrong with an old-school 50gr SP if that's what works for your shooting, but it's a bit disingenuous to act put-out about the world moving on to new advancements. I think you misunderstood, I can't speak for gnoahh, but I don't think he is put out. Besides that, heavy 22 caliber bullets are wasted in a 223 to really gain anything for long range. You need a 22-250 sized case and up with that fast twist to really make those longer heavier bullets shine...
![[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]](https://i.postimg.cc/G9RDVKXr/DSCN4329.jpg)
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 4,755
Campfire Tracker
|
|
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 4,755 |
I think you misunderstood, I can't speak for gnoahh, but I don't think he is put out. Besides that, heavy 22 caliber bullets are wasted in a 223 to really gain anything for long range. You need a 22-250 sized case and up with that fast twist to really make those longer heavier bullets shine...
1 - I didn't misunderstand anything; I read what he posted. 2 - It doesn't sound like you know what you're talking about here. Have you actually done much longer distance shooting with 75gr+ 223/5.56? Thanks for the chuckle I guess, but if you think a 50gr 223 can reach out as far as a 75gr or 77gr you should try out that theory and see how far wrong it is.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 15,921 Likes: 1
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 15,921 Likes: 1 |
There are 2 rules to success:
1. Never tell everything that you know.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 1,066
Campfire Regular
|
|
OP
Campfire Regular
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 1,066 |
So, I got a bunch of 75gr Hornady HPBT's at a really good price. If it doesn't like them, I'll sell them/trade them, or run them for plinkers in my 1:7 AR.
We'll see how it goes. I got the rifle from the FFL today and am really happy with it. Can't wait to put it across the bench!
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 23,123 Likes: 2
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 23,123 Likes: 2 |
but it's a bit disingenuous to act put-out about the world moving on to new advancements. Who said I was put out?? Please don't put words in my mouth! I'm merely pointing out that not everybody has the means, need, or desire for "reaching out", and making use of the (marvelous) burgeoning technology for long range shooting. Nothing more than offering a sober counterpoint.
"You can lead a man to logic, but you cannot make him think." Joe Harz
"Always certain, often right." Keith McCafferty
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 9,739 Likes: 4
Campfire Outfitter
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 9,739 Likes: 4 |
Use those 50 and 55 gr. bullets! There are a lot of us who do. Just ignore the silly comments.
You have to use what your situation dictates. Where you hunt. What you hunt. And the costs involved. For exanple, the Hornady 55 gr. SPs work well on several critters around here, and are accurate. At $14/100 Cdn, they are a bargain.
I buy those and 55 gr. fmjs for plinking. They are attractively priced at $50/500 and are fun to shoot. My grandkids love 'em! And so do I.
Safe Shooting! Steve Redgwell www.303british.comGet your facts first, then you can distort them as you please. - Mark Twain Member - Professional Outdoor Media Association of Canada ![[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]](https://i.imgur.com/AP39Jhm.jpg)
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 8,697 Likes: 1
Campfire Outfitter
|
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 8,697 Likes: 1 |
Sometimes sobering and reality counterpoints offend some people. I totally understand your point.
I live in Nebraska which has some very interesting laws on hunting due to the fact that 90% of the land is private, it is illegal for me to shoot across a fence line onto property I don’t have permission. It is also illegal for me to take any legal animal that is on the other side of that fence line that I don’t have permission on. So if the farthest fence that you have permission on is 300 yards that’s your limit.
No hunting or shooting allowed within 200 yards of an occupied dwelling unless it’s private is another.
Now take into account that in this state there are only 3 ranges that allow practice out to 500 or 600. 2 are private and run 300-500 per year. 1 is public Grand Island and cost per day isn’t bad when that 600 is open, which isn’t guaranteed. I am lucky as you say to have unfettered access to a 200 yard range which is a rarity, as most except the 3 above limit you to 100 without a RO or match going on.
For me the 50-55 are all I will ever need. But if I lived in an area that had vast amounts of public land with the ability to reach out that far, I might consider the heavies.
Swifty
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 24,632 Likes: 30
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 24,632 Likes: 30 |
but it's a bit disingenuous to act put-out about the world moving on to new advancements. Who said I was put out?? Please don't put words in my mouth! I'm merely pointing out that not everybody has the means, need, or desire for "reaching out", and making use of the (marvelous) burgeoning technology for long range shooting. Nothing more than offering a sober counterpoint. It is simple math: Yondering + computer= expert
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 4,755
Campfire Tracker
|
|
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 4,755 |
but it's a bit disingenuous to act put-out about the world moving on to new advancements. Who said I was put out?? Please don't put words in my mouth! I'm merely pointing out that not everybody has the means, need, or desire for "reaching out", and making use of the (marvelous) burgeoning technology for long range shooting. Nothing more than offering a sober counterpoint. It is simple math: Yondering + computer= expert Says the guy who said 50gr 223 works as well as 75/77gr at long range. Genius. Who's the keyboard expert here? My posts may be abrasive sometimes, but at least I refrain from talking about things I know nothing about.
Last edited by Yondering; 08/07/19.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 4,755
Campfire Tracker
|
|
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 4,755 |
but it's a bit disingenuous to act put-out about the world moving on to new advancements. Who said I was put out?? Please don't put words in my mouth! I'm merely pointing out that not everybody has the means, need, or desire for "reaching out", and making use of the (marvelous) burgeoning technology for long range shooting. Nothing more than offering a sober counterpoint. That's fair, and maybe I read too much into your post. It seems pretty common for a lot of the older guys here to complain about how nobody does it their way any more, which is exactly what I thought your post was. To be clear, if I could only shoot out to 200 yards with a 223, I'd probably use the old 50gr more too (although I'd still have use for heavy bullets too). I've found those Varmint Nightmare 50's from Midsouth shoot really well.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 24,632 Likes: 30
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 24,632 Likes: 30 |
but it's a bit disingenuous to act put-out about the world moving on to new advancements. Who said I was put out?? Please don't put words in my mouth! I'm merely pointing out that not everybody has the means, need, or desire for "reaching out", and making use of the (marvelous) burgeoning technology for long range shooting. Nothing more than offering a sober counterpoint. It is simple math: Yondering + computer= expert Says the guy who said 50gr 223 works as well as 75/77gr at long range. Genius. Who's the keyboard expert here? My posts may be abrasive sometimes, but at least I refrain from talking about things I know nothing about. Here we go with a typical call out thread. I never said that! Not only are you wrong, you must be illiterate...
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 9,739 Likes: 4
Campfire Outfitter
|
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 9,739 Likes: 4 |
Unfortunately, it isn't the first time he's done this. He's a candidate for the ignore button.
Safe Shooting! Steve Redgwell www.303british.comGet your facts first, then you can distort them as you please. - Mark Twain Member - Professional Outdoor Media Association of Canada
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 15,921 Likes: 1
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 15,921 Likes: 1 |
he's moving to the top of my list.
There are 2 rules to success:
1. Never tell everything that you know.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 6,796
Campfire Tracker
|
|
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 6,796 |
Check your twist rate it may be too slow for those bullets...most use 9 or faster for those long bullets...
For the 223 I found a 50 gr bullet to be the best comprimese if you are going to be shooting prairie dogs...bunted through thousands of 40 gr vmax also...best all around powder for me has been win 748..it has shot good in every 223 I have...I got 16 lbs of surplus 846 that is proving to be pretty good also...label says use blc-2 data...
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 24,632 Likes: 30
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 24,632 Likes: 30 |
Check your twist rate it may be too slow for those bullets...most use 9 or faster for those long bullets...
For the 223 I found a 50 gr bullet to be the best comprimese if you are going to be shooting prairie dogs...bunted through thousands of 40 gr vmax also...best all around powder for me has been win 748..it has shot good in every 223 I have...I got 16 lbs of surplus 846 that is proving to be pretty good also...label says use blc-2 data... Blc-2 is a great 223 powder, but I keep using that unstable H335...
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 60,177 Likes: 20
Campfire Kahuna
|
|
Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 60,177 Likes: 20 |
That's because you refuse to shoot rodents below 60 degrees or above 75.You're a temperature weenie, just like H335.
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.”
John Steinbeck
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 24,632 Likes: 30
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 24,632 Likes: 30 |
That's because you refuse to shoot rodents below 60 degrees or above 75.You're a temperature weenie, just like H335. You are a real comedian, like you know anything about firearms or shooting...
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 9,739 Likes: 4
Campfire Outfitter
|
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 9,739 Likes: 4 |
Okay, let's see the flick knives!  Maybe some of the board will render their expert opinions on which knife is best. European. Domestic. Type of steel. Spring mechanism. etc.  I think George Chakiris' running shoes would be prone to slippage. Better with Nikes? Adidas? ![[Linked Image]](https://assets.bwbx.io/images/users/iqjWHBFdfxIU/iCI5rr3wBXYY/v4/1000x-1.jpg)
Safe Shooting! Steve Redgwell www.303british.comGet your facts first, then you can distort them as you please. - Mark Twain Member - Professional Outdoor Media Association of Canada
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 15,921 Likes: 1
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 15,921 Likes: 1 |
That's because you refuse to shoot rodents below 60 degrees or above 75.You're a temperature weenie, just like H335. That's because you refuse to shoot rodents below 60 degrees or above 75.You're a temperature weenie, just like H335. You are a real comedian, like you know anything about firearms or shooting... And, its on!
There are 2 rules to success:
1. Never tell everything that you know.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 4,755
Campfire Tracker
|
|
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 4,755 |
Oh dear, I've really stepped in it now; guess I shouldn't have questioned somebody's hero. Some of you guys act like a pack of high school girls.  Shrapnel, it doesn't really matter who these guys think you are, that statement you made was pretty dumb, and at the very least deceptive to the OP. I'm pretty sure you know as well as anyone here that light 223 varmint bullets don't do well at long distance, especially in the wind (they don't have that in Montana, do they?) and using a heavier target bullet with the right twist can be the difference between hitting the target and not. Maybe that's a "waste" in your world, but it sure isn't for a lot of people.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 9,739 Likes: 4
Campfire Outfitter
|
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 9,739 Likes: 4 |
 Yes, you stepped in it. You often do. And you hurt everyone's feelings. 
Safe Shooting! Steve Redgwell www.303british.comGet your facts first, then you can distort them as you please. - Mark Twain Member - Professional Outdoor Media Association of Canada
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 6,698
Campfire Tracker
|
|
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 6,698 |
I like to do my hunting BEFORE I pull the trigger!
There is only one kind of dead, but there are many different kinds of wounded.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 23,506
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 23,506 |
I shoot 77 TMK, 80.5gr Berger's or 75g eld-m out of my ar 15 for highpower matches. Performs very well for me out to 600yds. We are lucky we have a KD range with pits like at camp Perry for our matches. I use either varget or ar-comp
Then STFU. The rest of your statement is superflous bullshit with no real bearing on this discussion other than to massage your own ego. Suckin' on my titties like you wanted me.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 78,306 Likes: 2
Campfire Oracle
|
|
Campfire Oracle
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 78,306 Likes: 2 |
Oh dear, I've really stepped in it now; guess I shouldn't have questioned somebody's hero. Some of you guys act like a pack of high school girls. I feel compelled now to put a dog in the fight.... Shrapnel is NOT my hero! I've only met him once! He has many faults! 1. He just confronted Mule deer, whom I have met twice, so hes twice as good a friend as Shrapnel.. 2. He shoots a lot of .222 Magnum yet refuses to upgrade to a .223AI 3.He sticks to his antiquated Temp sensitive H335 like its the Holy Grail...which EVERYONE knows its not.... 4.He kills more rabbits than me...which makes me jealous. 5. He refuses to even let me drive his GTO.. 6. After repeated nice requests he sold his Honda SL350 rather than gift it to me... I could go on and on....
"...the left considers you vermin, and they'll kill you given the chance..." Bristoe
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 9,739 Likes: 4
Campfire Outfitter
|
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 9,739 Likes: 4 |
Safe Shooting! Steve Redgwell www.303british.comGet your facts first, then you can distort them as you please. - Mark Twain Member - Professional Outdoor Media Association of Canada
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 6,698
Campfire Tracker
|
|
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 6,698 |
Everyone has different reasons for the bullet they choose to use. If I am shooting prairie dogs I like light recoil and good expansion so I like light bullets.
If I was on the 600 yd line at Camp Perry I want accuracy and wind bucking ability and I don't care how much they cost.
If I was with grandchildren having fun and looking for cheap I would bring out 22 rimfire.
I like to do my hunting BEFORE I pull the trigger!
There is only one kind of dead, but there are many different kinds of wounded.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 6,698
Campfire Tracker
|
|
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 6,698 |
Varget would work in the .308 and the .223.
I like to do my hunting BEFORE I pull the trigger!
There is only one kind of dead, but there are many different kinds of wounded.
|
|
|
|
|
583 members (160user, 1badf350, 1minute, 1Longbow, 219 Wasp, 219DW, 59 invisible),
2,380
guests, and
1,312
robots. |
|
Key:
Admin,
Global Mod,
Mod
|
|
|
Forums81
Topics1,193,184
Posts18,503,295
Members73,993
| |
Most Online11,491
Jul 7th, 2023
|
|
|
|
