Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Gunsmithing Critique my stock- finishing / weatherizing plan

Interesting, everything I know is wrong and everything I've done is wrong. I guess thats why all the stocks and furniture I've refinished have held up as well as they have. That must also be why everyone else is so happy with the results they've gotten using oil finishes, they don't know what they're doing.

I feel sorry for you Brent, such beautiful guns and such poorly finished stocks. How can you bear it? I suppose I should confess right now that I'm not very "manly". I don't like getting wet and I baby my firearms, feel free to make as many jokes as you want. I WISH I had a "girly" lo-wall as nice as your Shuetzen Brent, the he-men could snicker out their a@@ for all I care. By the way have you ever considered a French polish? That would go with your Shuetzen like silk and lace, oops, sorry, thats a little too "girly".

Oh well, I'm getting out of this debate, I'm too misinformed to add anything of any value, though I do agree with your final thoughts Brent. If anyone out there is interested,there are 2 books I can recommend as they're full of misinformation. One is "Finishes and Finishing Techniques" by Taunton Press, its a collection of articles from Fine Woodworking magazine. The other is "Understanding Wood Finishing" by Bob Flexner. There are other books I could recommend, but I can't find them at the moment. A lot of what I don't know can be found in these two. Happy finishing. Tim

Confused, I understand how you feel. I think the whole notion of how to finish guns is as varied as the guns themselves. Lots of guys love Tru Oil and get along fine with that. Others like something else.

In any event, see if you can stir up a copy of Stephen Dodd Hughes' 3-part article on gunstock refinishing. It starts in the April/May 2002 issue of Fine Gunmaking.

Brent

Confused
Please go to any reference you named and show me an error in my statements. I can go to those same references and cite chapter and verse to support what I posted. Sorry if your nose was bent, that was not my intent. However, I cannot in good conscience allow such statements to stand uncontested.

I never critiqued your woodwork nor your skills nor your results. Only your incorrect statements were questioned. And I pointedly did not in any way question nor criticize Brent's stock and your attempt to drag that into the debate is improper.

Further, if you use the search function I bet you can find at least one post by me that gives a french polish recipe for a stock. Use shellac as the key word.
art
no insult intended

This goes against my better judgement, but Ok. You said most of my post was in error. Pretty much everything I said in my first paragraph can be found in Flexner's book in chapter 4. I cannot even imagine what is wrong in my second paragraph, unless you believe that EVERY firearm needs to be finished with epoxy regardless of whether it will see bad weather or not. I will reference any specifics from here on to either Flexner's book or articles by Lothar Baumann and Michael Dresdner in "Finishes and Finishing Techniques".

I said thinning a finish can help, there are references to thinning finishes by Flexner, pg 61,65, 178 and 181. I found no references to thinner actually degrading the quality of the finish, as you say.
I said that adhesion is a problem with varnish, that it requires sanding between coats, I should have been more specific and said polyurethane, Flexner addresses adhesion and the need for sanding on page 176.
You said I'm in error on what oil is, and what an oil finish is, refer to Flexner pg. 55.
You said all differences between tung and linseed arise from additives, and that they basically interchangeable. On pages 56 and 58, Flexner talks about differences in water resistance, wood darkening, appearance, and whitening, with NO mention of additives that change the oil properties, other than drying time. Nowhere can I find reference to tung oil being labeled as boiled linseed oil.
You said heavy metals are not used as driers, I'm not sure which metals are considered heavy, but Dresdner mentions heavy metallic driers on pg. 47, and Flexner mentions metallic driers on pgs. 56 and 175. You also mentioned that boiled linseed oil was originally boiled, that is true but the use of heavy metal driers goes back to the 1700's. I don't have the reference in front of me, but the author of some period book on finishing or woodworking said to add powdered glass to oils or varnishes. The glass, which contained lead, would speed curing. Flexner, pg. 56, also states that linseed oil was boiled, not to polymerize them, as you state, but to help incorporate the driers into them.
You said Tru-oil is oleoresinous, Flexner pg. 61 states that Tru-oil is polymerized, he also mentions that it can be thinned without compromising its quality.
You said teak oil is tung or linseed with additives, Flexner talks about the 3 different types of teak oil I mentioned on pg. 67.
You seem to have a problem with people sanding finishes between coats, the method Baumann uses, pg .46, involves a lot of sanding. Baumann also states that sanding the finish into the wood seems to be critical to obtaining the results he wants. Flexner, pgs. 51 and 52, also advocates sanding between coats. If I wanted to look, I could find lots of references to this in lots of books or periodicals.
You said that I am completely incorrect regarding the bonding of a fresh coat of oil finish to a cured or completely dried finish. Dresdner, pg.48, talks about applying oil finish over previous finish that is years old, also mentioning that oil finishes should get a fresh coat every year or two, with no mention of adhesion problems. If a new coat of finish will bond to a 2 year old coat of finish, I don't know what you're talking about. Flexner, pg. 68, states that oil finishes can be recoated any time they look dry or show wear, with no mention of adhesion problems over a cured finish. Flexner, pg. 180, also mentions that uncured oil under varnish can prevent it from curing. I have never read, anywhere, that oil finishes need to be applied to uncured oil finishes in order to bond properly.
You said there is a reason this has been done this way for so long, I don't follow, there is a reason what has been done this way?
If you can go to those books, and reference statements that contradict what I've said, I look forward to hearing from you .
No insult was taken, just frustration from being indirectly called stupid. I'm sure there are others who feel frustration from being told that the methods they've used to complete satisfaction are all wrong. I've done a lot of refinishing, and though I do not consider myself an expert, I know more about a variety of finishing methods than professional refinishers I know and have worked with. I had to learn a lot on my own, because when I asked questions, I was often told they never did this or that and didn't know anything about it. I do know enough to know that I don't know everything. Theres more than one way to skin a cat, and more than one way to get a satisfactory oil finish. I simply offered some suggestions based on what has worked for me, as opposed to engraving absolute truths on a stone tablet.

I don't know about anyone else, but I'm hoping that this thread can stay somewhat civil, as I think I can learn alot. FYI, I am in the middle of a fairly major home renovation and have an interested in wood finishing techniques not only as they apply to rifle stocks, but also as they apply to woodwork outdoors, inside, to trim as opposed to floors. It seems that every tradesman/craftsman that I speak with has a different opinion. I'd like to see just how badly I messed up!

I also appreciate that the fact that Art has tested out various methods of finish under controlled environments to see what works, and what works better under said conditions.

Chris

BrentD, I am rather certain that your part of Iowa must have a constant humidity of 60% or so the whole year long, it must also have an annual rainfall over 100 inches every year. Just like the conditions we have here in the PNW. These conditions in Iowa must raise the devil with the wood on your guns just like they do here. The saving grace is it is always so wet that you never have to worry about your stock drying out.
Enough of the sarcasim. this very arguement comes up from time to time with Art getting involved. I have tried his epoxy method and will say that it works but is a PITA to get right. I have also oiled stocks with tung oil, Linspeed and a home made concoction of my own and found that a well sealed stock will survive in the wet equally as well. I also find that an epoxy coated stock as prescribed by Art takes a lot less time to achieve a finish on than a properly hand rubbed oil stock.
I have a beautiful T/C Hawkin that has over 50 coats of hand rubbed oil. To finish this stock to my satisfaction took almost two years. I have had this rifle on hunts where it was constanty wet for over a week, The rain never let up. The stock had no adverse effects, I do believe however had it not been so compleatly sealed it would or could have twisted or warped.
What I am seeing in todays stock finishers is a eagerness to lay a couple coats of "hand rubbed" commercial oil and then call it good.
Arts "Hybrid" (my term) finish addresses the lack of real oil finish application and does so quite well. I have tried it with out complaint except for than one little spot I always manage to sand through. I use WEST SYSTEM for my epoxy which if not covered tends to "Blush." Once covered with a top coat or two of oil finish the problem with Blush seems to go away.
When all is said and done I prefer to hand rub an oil finish even if it takes a few dozen coats. I do not do this for expidency I do it for relaxation and the joy of seeing my stock come to "LIFE"
Now I am going to throw a curve in to this fray. If you do not prep your wood properly you might as well just spray it with Krylon and call it good.
I never use steel wool on any of my wood. steel wool is a disaster looking for a wet day to happen.
I sand down to 600 grit then use a series of beef leg bones to rub the stock. This is a very old method of wood prep that is time consuming yet very rewarding in the final process. When rubbed properly the wood begins to "Glow" it shines as all the pores are sealed up the wood looks like it is already finished.
the real important thing is you must apply finish asap or the wood will open up and you will need to rub it again. No fillers required. Round surfaces are eaisest to "bone" flat surfaces are the hardest to get right. The harder the species of wood the better.

Bullwnkl.

Good luck on your renovation Chris, my wife wants to build a log house and I'm to do all the interior work so I will soon know how you feel. You can't ask too many questions about wood finishing, theres too many ways to do it. The Flexner book I mentioned is good, it can help you understand what people are telling you.
Hey Bullwinkle, your beef bone method sounds fascinating, how do you prepare the bones, rare, medium or well done? Sorry, I couldn't resist. That is an interesting method though, am I right in assuming you're burnishing the wood? I've seen steel wool do the same thing, it makes wood look like its finished while its bare.
It seems like more than a few people, especially on the Pacific coast, are interested in waterproof finishes. Has anyone tried straight varnish or conversion finishes? I wonder if they would hold up as well as the epoxy apparently does.

Tim

Moose,
I'm just a person that likes to mess around with old to very old rifles. I have boned wood as you suggest though I used polished steel or glass or even occasionally antler. It works very well.

I most often use a combination of equal parts spar, turp, boiled linseed. This has worked well for me but lately, I've been starting with Permalyn sealer and liking it very much.

This is my current project - a Zischang Borchardt - in the process of being filled with a Permalyn/rottenstone mud (no burnishing on this stock - at least not yet). This particular rifle will probably never hunt, but it will be used much much harder than any of my hunting rifles.

What is steel wool?

Brent

I do admire your taste in rifles. Do you think you could post a few more pictures, I would love to see the metal that wood is getting attached to.

Tim

Tim,
I can't show you a whole lot of interesting photos of the Borchard metal just yet. The barrel is on one bench being polished and readied for bluing this weekend and next week. The action is rough profiled and will probably be shot that way all summer and then engraved and color cased this winter. I'll attach one picture of the wood and action from a few months ago. What you cannot see in this picture is some fantastic metal work on the innards that added Stellite to the sears and changed the sear angles slicked up everything and then reduced the trigger pull to a very managable 18 ounces or so. This work was not done by me however. A friend with far more skill than I did that.

The best triggers for a Borchie are typically Zischang double sets. But the few people that have made them have claimed that Bill Gates does not have enough money to make them build another set. So, this uses the old American Rifleman techniques along with some other improvements including the Stellite.

The same guy cut the action panels recesses that I will fit with Desert Ironwood (which will also be used for the forearm tip as well.

But here are three rifles - the Borchardt, the same .22 low wall in finished condition, and a old Ballard with nicely finished and figured wood (that also did not fit me at all well - now sold down river). Although I did some of the work on each of these rifles, many, MANY others were involved in each rifle.

I have tried a lot of different materials for "burnishing" my stocks. I settled on bone for a couple reasons. The first and most obviouse to me is that the bone works.
second I can have a lot of shapes of bone to fit hard to get to places.
Third no one else I know does it.

As to the bones them self I use a leg bone of a beef or buffalo about 2 inches in diameter by 4 inches long.
the bone is boiled until all the marrow is disolved and there is no meat left on the bone.
dog bones work well if you get to them before the dog, dogs scratch the bone. Buffalo bones are harder and require a little more break in than beef. To break a bone in I make a couple walking sticks using the bone to polish some dry hard wood . the bones wil begin to get polished themselves then it's time to hit the stocks. A good bone is like a good tool you need to take car of it they can get scratched which will can and does leave marks in your stock....bad bad bad.
I prefer to polish in full sunlight, you see every place you miss.

Bullwnkl.

I would never use steel wool with a gun finish. I would wet sand in small circles and push the goop into the pores.

A fast and easy finish is Brownells Gun Save R...It is a great finish and just too easy to apply to be true. Sand to very smooth and then spray on any number of coats you wish. I did wet sand it a couple of times out of habit! but I really didn't have to.