Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Savage Collectors MHG photos and details

Let me know if you guys want to see anything in particular that's not here. For everyone's curiosity.

Roy:

If you will send the rifle to me I will give it a thorough examination and report back to the members.

Thanks for sharing , Roy. It's a sweetie!

Looks like a standard issue sling for the SMLE.

I hate it when I make a reply then forget to hit "Post". So, I'll say it again, that thing is nice!

Looks like you get the cool award of the year with that one!

I've never been cool. At least that's what I've been told by a few ex's!

Wow, great rifle!


Lee

Very good. Please send address and a gajillion dollars.

Yep. I see your rifle, Roy. 3rd rank 14 guys from the left.

https://archive.org/stream/calltoarmsmontre00sanduoft/calltoarmsmontre00sanduoft_djvu.txt


Montreal Home Guard



The Home Guard movement in Montreal was one of the most interesting
developments of the home defence preparations. Montreal claims no credit as
having been the first city in the Dominion to inaugurate the Home Guard move-
ment. Montreal is entitled to the credit, however, of being the first city in the
Dominion to bring the idea to a successful issue. In the early stages of the
European conflict when rumors were rife of the probability of Americo-German
raids on Canada from over the border line of the United States, the Home
Guard idea made its appearance in several places at the same time. There were
not lacking large numbers of business men beyond the middle age who felt it
their duty to prepare themselves for the defence of their homes, should such
defence become necessary, but were not, for various reasons, able to ally them-
selves with any of the established militia corps. Their thoroughly worthy in-
tentions, and the Home Guard idea itself, received something of a set-back,
however, when the Militia authorities frankly declared that every available
rifle in the country and every rifle which could be produced, was needed to pro-
vide the contingents being raised for Overseas Service and for the use of the
established Militia Regiments throughout the Dominion. It was at this point
that Montreal succeeded where the Home Guard in other places languished.
Mr. J. N. Greenshields, K.C. gave a fillip to the movement by the simple
suggestion that every member enrolling in the Home Guard of Montreal should
provide himself with a rifle. There were rifles to be obtained elsewhere outside of the
Dominion. It needed money to buy them. The Militia Department, up to its
eyes in work with the regulars, had no money nor rifles for Home Guards. The
only solution was for the Home Guardsmen to furnish the money themselves.
And they did.

A committee including some of the most influential business men of Montreal
was organised and through their efforts the Home Guard of Montreal became an
accomplished fact. Recruits came forward in large numbers, agreeing to furnish
the wherewithal to equip themselves with rifles and such other accoutrements as
might be decided on.

The committee in charge of the arrangements for the Home Guard was
made up as follows: J. N. Greenshields, K.C., chairman; Lieut.-Col. Geo.
Starke, Lieut.-Col. Hutchison, Robert Bickerdike, M.P., R. J. Dale, A. J. Brown,
K.C., E. L. Pease, E. C. Pratt, P. P. Cowans, D. C. Macarow, John D. Oppe,
William Lyall, J. W. Pyke, David Law, H. W. Beauclerk, F. W. Tofield, Dr.
Milton L. Hersey, D. Gallery, F. L. Wanklyn, and Alexander Warden, Secretary.

Fireball , Is the front sight blade brass or steel? Thanx , Malcolm.

The picture of The Guard , shows them cheering at something ,probably a hip hip whooray!

Really cool! It was probably a company owned gun since it had the guardsman's name stamped on the top of the buttstock.

It's tapered like a brass sight, higher in back, but it's not got a "bead" on top, just a straight post style sight, and it's steel.

I thought that looked like it, but if you look at the serial number you'd see it's a digit off.

Chit! That's a nice one.

Shoots good although about 14" high at 100.

That happens when sighted in for 1000 yards

Aim fer his feet Cleatus!

May I inquire as to where you located this fine specimen? I've never once seen one in person.

Greg I have a friend that works for a very prominent auction house. He travels the US and Canada picking up gun collections for auction so when he was headed north I asked him to find me an MHG, nyuk nyuk nyuk I think to myself. He called me one day and says I found one for you. I thought he was joking of course since they're not exactly dime-store common.

Turns out he wasn't joking. It took a few months to import, mostly due to a terribly unprofessional importer. *Side note, he lost all the auction house's future business.

It arrived a few days ago and I've been marveling at it ever since. If you are as fascinated by them as I was, you owe it to yourself to lay for one. They do not disappoint. I love that the balance point is forward onto the wood rather than the metal receiver as is common with the hunting model Savage lever guns. Would be warmer to hang onto in the cold Canadian weather than a standard rifle. Makes me wonder if maybe that wasn't the intent of the longer barrel and forward balance point?????

At any rate, I think they are fabulous pieces of history and am enjoying reading about and handling this fun firearm. The weight makes it very pleasant to shoot in the 303, but it feels surprising lean and svelte in my hands. As I said, it's a very neat firearm.

its a tad nicer condition than the one I had, great job

If ya'd been wear'in these for juju at time it would been on the money. Next time...

Hat pin


Lapel pin

Thanks for sharing the pictures Roy, That's as much detail as I've ever had on a MHG musket

Coolness

Please define "gajillion" If that is less than a bazillion Venezuelan pesos address to follow...

I know you are not shooting it with the back sight up as pictured.







Right?

Correct. Sight down and forward at it's lowest point.

The name on this MHG is "notman". I'm trying to connect this rifle to one Charles Notman. His father William was a pioneering photographer in Montreal.



William the oldest, Charles on the right. Charles Notman would have been 44 in 1914.

Pretty typical of most milsurps of the era. Sight folded down= battle sight, usually regulated for around 500 yards. It's where the old Sergeant's admonition to "shoot low, boys" came from. Where does it hit with the ladder raised and the slide in its lowest position?

Anybody ever check with the McCord Museum or The Canadian War Museum’s Military History Research Centre to look for a roster of the Home Guard volunteers?

I didn't try it, but it would be 300 yards or so on the scale, with whatever ammunition it was regulated for.

https://www.british-immigrants-in-montreal.com/worldwar1andmontreal.html

On July 29th, 1914, Canada received a warning from Britain to take precautions in case of a surprise attack. Armed militia men were posted to guard tunnels, bridges, canals and railway stations.(Morton & Granatstein, 1989)


The Home Front 1914-1918
Volunteerism – with many men gone and the special needs of a country at war, most people wanted to “do their bit” .

“Give til it hurts” – The Canadian Patriiotic Fund depended on the populace to fund their charity. People were told that if they couldn’t fight, they could pay.

Local Militia – Some men were needed on the home front to protect the country. If you weren’t quite fit for overseas duty, you might be suitable for tasks at home.

I found a roster for the oldest volunteer regiment- 1st Regiment Canadian Grenadier Guards. Someone has a roster for the MHG, we just have to find it.

https://www.british-immigrants-in-montreal.com/grenadier_guards.html

I believe Notmans may have taken this photo. I saw this on one of my searches today I believe here on the fire. Anyone recognize or have information on this photo? That may be Charles Notman upper row, left end.

Very nice rifle Roy. I would like to see you bust a nice blacktail with it.

So would I but aiming over a foot low is problematic.

Anybody know what the Montreal Home Guard would have used for ammunition? Since it wasn't chambered for their 303 British cartridge they would have had to get some from either Savage or some sporting ammo, right?

Or did one of the ammo companies develop ammo specifically for this application to sell to them?

I would surmise that they used a .303 FMJ load per military doctrine at the time.

What load did you fire out of it? For the purposes of paper punching I bet a low velocity plinker load would drop the point of impact a lot closer to POA. Maybe a 150 grain bullet at 1100fps or so. If I were hell bent on deer hunting with it I would load a 190-200 grain cast bullet at 1600-1700 fps MV and see where it hits- probably a whole lot closer to the bullseye than what you got, and with plenty of oomph to kill a deer. Let me know and I'll bring you a fistful of them to try.

As Gary said. To better understand the problem I would do some research into what ammo (bullets and powder) the Canadians were using as service rounds. That is what the sights will have been regulated for. For instance the British were big into Cordite and the Canadians may have contracted with someone local to produce the ammo. Cordite may perform much different than anything used for powders these days. This is just speculation but ammo is half of the equation in solving your problem of hitting high.

I shot old Remington and newer Winchester both 180 factory loads. I've got a boatload of 150 and 180 gr bullets I could load for the 303.

A gazillion falls between a bazillion and guganderous.

A quick fix for me would to be to settle on what round you want to use in the rifle and then change out the front sight for something that will hit dead on at 100, or whatever range you are comfortable with. Or just leave it alone as "it is what it is" and that doesn't necessarily have to accommodate modern sensibilities.

The Brits shot 174-grain bullets out of their Enfields so I wouldn't speculate on lighter weight slugs going in the direction you want. If I were reloading I would use heavier bullets and maybe even powders that come close to the burn rates of those that were used back in the period of the Great War. The rifle and sight is only half of the problem.

I'm not changing anything out on the rifle. It's not like I need it to hunt with, it's just a curiosity.

Sounds reasonable to me. However it could prove to be an interesting exercise in reloading.

1) wonder what caliber that cane is?

2) note that all have leather slings in the photo.

3) since all purchased their own equipment they might have purchased ammo from Savage at the time the musket was ordered. It appears that about 3/4 were shipped in Dec., 1914 with a second order shipping in Feb., 1915. The second order has the highest Rack numbers which would indicate later new members to the unit.

4) Savage rifle ammo sales:
1912, 1,535,160 cartridges
1913, 1,521,120
1914, 2,231,052
1915, 4,388,260

Savage .303 #1 had a full metal case bullet.
Musket price would have been around $25 (guess).
1000 rounds of #1 was $38 so how any rounds would they have been required to purchase?

Rick I read yesterday that the MHG volunteers spent $35 for rifle and uniform.

Maybe 100 rounds? 800x100=80,000...or less. What manufacture would have made a special run for that amount at that time. I don't think the ammo collectors have turned up anything other than commercial .303 rounds from that period.

Roy you sure have been on a Roll with the Savage rifles! another Dandy rifle!

And all of a sudden I'm catching fish too? Knowing my luck my plane will blast into a mountain on the way to PA in a couple weeks huh? LOL.

Blind squirrel buddy, that's all it is.

Maybe it's time for a trip to Vegas!

CIL , Canadian Industries Limited was likely the Company that manufactured the ammo . There was a box of it on here about 6 months ago .I think Salter was selling it but it was about $ 450. 00 a box. It was full metal jacket and about 190 grain.
I don't know when CIL ( Montreal ) became incorporated as a Company but they made 303 Savage ammo close to that era. .

Good to know.

So what's this about "surprise attacks" from the U.S. side of the border?

Was CIL loading centerfire ammo in 1914?

Once them fellas in PA are thru with this get together there won't be enough of me left for any stinkin trip to Vegas! I think Joe Martin is gunna keep me up at night talkin about fish.

For crying out loud, have you forgot about the infamous Battle of Niagara Falls?!

It pays to have friends in the right places. That's awesome. Thanks for sharing the detailed pics.

I think the longer barrel and wood handguards were pretty much standard fare for the day in WWI. Infantry rifles of the time were just starting to get away from their secondary use as pike weapons, what with 32-inch barrels and 16-inch bayonets and all. That's a lot of hardware sticking out there.

Sorry, Roy, I go to bed at 9 and get up at 4. Don't talk till about 11, then don't stop till I go to bed at 9. Don't know what that will do to your jet lag?

You guys keep talking about the long barrel on the MHG like it was longer than standard rifles of the era. It had a 26" barrel the same as the 1899A, B, and C's. As a matter of fact it was an 1899A barreled action with a few slight modifications like the muzzle turned down for the bayonet. It even had the high gloss receiver-not very military-like.

David what's the ring in front of the receiver?

Military doctrine of the era still depended on the bayonet to be an important weapon. Prior to the Great War infantry rifle barrels were universally long, 28-30", for the express purpose of extending the reach of the bayonet. Gew 98's in the hands of Kaiser Bill's troops retained that long length and a relatively short bayonet but the Brits' SMLE's and Yanks' '03's had been shortened by then to 23-24" barrels (but fitted with rather long bayonets to make up the difference). Hence the MHG fell somewhere in between. Interesting statistic: less than 1/2 of 1% of recorded injuries were attributed to bayonets. Then as now they were mainly used as kitchen utensils.

I wouldn't have wanted to spend any time in the trenches of the Western Front trying to keep the flotsam-jetsam and mud out of those enclosed delicate innards of a Savage lever gun. (Heck, I wouldn't have wanted to spend any time in those trenches period.)

[quote=gnoahhh Interesting statistic: less than 1/2 of 1% of recorded injuries were attributed to bayonets. [/quote]

Same with fatalities?

I agree, the 99 would have been a nightmare keeping clean on the western front. Had the MHG been brought into action, likely not as they seem to have been populated with bankers and other professional types, I think they would have quickly tossed their 99s aside for the venerable SMLE.

Not David, but that ring (half ring actually) is to capture and hold the back end of the handguard. Again, a fairly common appliance found on milsurps. The 1903A3 Springfield had the same ring in front of the receiver ring.

Like the Canadians did with their Ross's when they encountered the horrible conditions in the trenches.

The bayonet could serve a practical use once you have fired your weapon dry in close quarters, but a 10 lb rifle makes a much better club than a pike pole. Really it's main purpose and service is as a psychological weapon.

The sight of hoards of screaming men firing and charging your position with bayonets fixed will send all but the most hardened battle tested troops into a terrified dash for their own lives.

British troops advanced in ranks and columns during the Great War, at barely a walking pace per strict orders. Tommies who went over the top at the Somme, July 1, 1916, were weighted down with 70 pounds of gear on their backs on average. No fooling, they even had to take their winter greatcoats with them on that hot summer day. Emergency rations, lots of extra ammo and grenades, rifle, bayonet, and full pack all added up to a basic inability to run much even if they dared to. Miles of uncut German concertina wire added to their misery as German Maxim guns scythed through their ranks. Casualties that day added up to around 60,000- most in the first 1/2 hour of the attack. Not much bayonet fighting happened...

When they went over the top they should have thrown down their packs, gave a rebel yell and bum rushed em, got in the enemy trenches and gave em the pistol and shovel.

Surprise, speed, audacity and shock and awe might have won the day (all words that weren't really part of the British military's vocabulary at the time)

Better than being slaughtered like live stock.

Wandering off topic here.

Shovels? We were taught to use our E-tools in hand to hand combat instead of the lightweight M-16 and bayonet when I was in MC Basics School in the early '70's. (E-tools were the little shovels we carried for those of you who aren't knowledgeable in military jargon)

Were I there, when I got close to the German trench I would drop my rifle and go in with a grenade in my left hand and .45 in my right. Key words there: "when I got close"- fat chance of that happening in the first place

. Knobkerry's were a favorite weapon for Brits conducting trench raids at night. (A wooden "caveman" club with spikes sticking out.) Life was short and cheap on the Western Front.

Howinhell did we get so far off into the weeds?

In order to get out of the weeds on this one I propose we vote to have Roy buy all of the rest of the regalia and paraphernalia that went with the Montreal Home Guard. Hell, who knows, they may have got free beers out of the deal too - or am I confusing things here with the McKenzie Brothers?

https://www.wearethemighty.com/hist...-became-a-deadlier-weapon-than-a-bayonet

Scroll down to the video. Pretty interesting for those that are interested in such things...

Great video. The good e-tools we had were very similar to the Aussie one in the video except the blade folded back on the handle which was about 16" long. Probably in the early 70's some genius developed an e-tool that not only had a folding blade but the handle folded again in the middle. It was too weak for hand to hand combat. I had one of the earlier type for years but it seems to have gone away.

I just received the book "Allied Rifle Contracts in America" and it has more information on the MHG and guardsman than I have found anywhere on the innernet.

It's a miracle. I found my e-tool. I just figured the boss left it lying in the yard and so yahoo had taken it when we lived in the PRC.
open

hoe

closed. It came with a carrying case that we attached to our back packs. maybe it will turn up some day too.

The best e-tools came with a spike opposite the blade that could also be configured 3 different ways. For loosening up the ground before you started your fox hole or...

In the Navy, we called those entrenching tools. We didn't abbreviate many things.

MARINE = My Ass Really Is Navy Equipment

I spent 4 years with the fleet Marine Force. I was their corpsman.

David if you sharpen the tip up it could do double duty as a screwdriver for breaking down your favorite 1899.

The McCord Museum is listed in the credits in the book. Also includes quite a few names of members of the MHG. I'm betting the museum may have a complete member list.

I had a couple as a kid, handed down by older men relatives. I remember at least one with the spike that made it look like a mattocks. All had wooden handles with the nut to screw them down tight.

The reason the Navy exists is to support the Marine Corps. They provide us with medical and religious people. (That's because we're all fighters). The amphibs transport us to where we're going to kick ass. The aviators provide us with close air support. The destroyers and cruisers protect the air craft carriers to they can get their planes close enough for CAS. They also provide beach bombardment till we can get our artillery in place. The supply ships provide the Marines and our support people (the Navy) with bullets, bandages, food, fuel, etc. Did I leave anyone out?
Thanks for your service LBK.
Oh yeah, I was in the Navy Reserve from 1962 to 1966 and active Navy from 1966 to 1971 when I wised up and joined the Marine Corps.

And the Marines exist only to handle things until the Army can arrive.

Huh, I thought everybody has one of these.
Collecting IS a sickness. Now I have to figure out who Mr. McCarthy Gallagher was!

I contributed to turning this post away from the original subject so I'll post this pic of my MHG, bayonet, hat badge and shoulder slash. It's engraved with the name John D. Baile. Google says there was a John D. Baile in Montreal at the time. He was described as a wealthy coal merchant. Google doesn't mention him being a member of the MHG. He was about 40 and his name appears frequently in MHG news articles. I doubt if there were two guys with that name and about the right age at that time.

The Marines had to clear the way and make it safe for the bumbling dogfaces to enter the combat area. Incidentally I was in the PRCNG for one year and the Army reserve for eight years.

Since I was not the person that strayed from the original topic, I will throw my hat in the ring. E-Tools aka army shovels are not shovels. Shovels have one and only one purpose. A shovels job it to transfer material from one place to another. They were not intended to dig. Most have the "Ames bend" to the handle that allows a person to scoop a load without bending over too far and preventing scraping the skin off your knuckles. And since their purposed job was to transfer material, they were usually built a lightweight as possible to reduce fatigue. They also had a u shape to the blade to maintain as much of the load without spillage. The spade, which is what the army shovels actually are, have an almost flat blade, a straight alignment between the handle and blade to allow control as you stand on it to dig a hole, keeping the handle close to your body while your feet are on the blade, and allowing you to dig a straight hole.. Since the spade is subject to hard usage, prying out rocks, cutting roots, upending compacted earth, they are built stout with a heavy gauge and a sharpened blade. Whew, got that off my chest.

I never knew that. Now I know why I keep breaking those fiberglass handles on the shovels.
You forgot to mention whacking bad guys.
In my breakdown on why the Navy exists I forgot the Navy seals who cleared the obstacles so the LCM's and amphibious tractors could get the Marines on the beach.