Home Forums Hunting & Shooting AR and Tactical Rifles what would you chose for a longer range upper, and why?

I have an AR-15.450BUSHMASTER for short range rifle, compliant with Ohio deer hunting regs. Ohio requires a straight wall cartridge (or tapered) from .357-.50 call.
However, I will, at some point, have a second upper for longer range shooting. Of the available chamberings for a AR-15, what would you recommend? Not looking for specific brands, but best overall choice from a practically standpoint, costs, availability,
My first thought, was just the standard 5.56, but is there a better choice?
Your opinions please.
Edit: I should also state, that mags should be the same standard size, such as the 5.56
(A standard mag with a different follower, is a 10 rd. .450 Bushmaster mag as a single stack.)

6.5 Grendell, or 6mm Grendel, is mo betta for long range than the 223/5.56.

Some people like the 6.5 Creedmoor in the AR-10 format. That's just a little heavy for me.

I have a 12" 6.5 Grendel, and run it with a can. Light and compact.

I am wondering how much better a 12" 6.5 Grendel could be than a 20" 5.56 with proper bullets?

What velocity, bullet and all that stuff?

When I go to the "ballistic" app, and select for "best flatness" for the 223 and the 6.5 Grendel, I get the 55 grain Hornady VMAX Superperformance and the 100 grain Wolf FMJ-BT.

Trajectory seems to be similar out to 600 yards, but the Grendel has 818ft-lbs energy at 600 while the 223 has just 306 ft-lbs.

For any "serious LR" shooting with the 5.56 / 223, a 77 gr bullet would make more sense than using a 53 gr for any kind of analysis.

To the OP: Just depends on your objectives & what you consider LR..............

A lot can be accomplished with a 223 Wylde chambered gun & good 69 & 77 grain bullets at mag length, which are easily purchased & readily available (for now) or hand-loaded.

Or if you want to step it up, the the 224 Valkyrie might be your huckleberry on a small frame.

MM

Hadn't thought of the Valkyrie. That's a good solution.

Is that counting barrel length and chrono'd velocity or just punched in numbers?

I just went to the app and selected as shown. The app populated velocity and BC. I didn't change anything the app provided.

David - we've discussed my 12.5" Grendel a couple times IIRC, so I can comment from experience - compared to a 75/77gr 5.56, the short Grendel with the 123 ELD (or something similar) has a lot more drop, but a lot less wind drift and more power on target at distance. Because of the reduced wind drift, it's a lot easier to hit with at distance than my 16" 5.56, especially in changing conditions. It's kind of fun to dial in a bunch of drop or hold over at 600-ish yards and drop those slow heavy bullets on target. (relatively to a 5.56 anyway)
Some numbers you can use for comparison:
123gr ELDM - 2350 fps
75gr BTHP - 2680 fps (add maybe 50-100 fps for a 20" if you want)

You won't have much luck at all with 55gr 5.56 at distance; way too much variation in the wind.


My personal experience is that for long distance in a small frame AR, the 243 LBC and other 6mm Grendel-based wildcats outrun everything else I've compared. They also have more room in the magazine to play with seating depth and chasing the lands. I have not shot a Valkyrie side by side with my 243, but on paper the real world velocity and b.c. numbers don't seem quite as good (the early published numbers appear to have been pretty optimistic). Only advantage I see to the V is factory ammo, if that's your thing.
A couple of my 243 LBC loads to compare, if you want to play with a ballistic calculator:
95gr VLD-H - 2930 fps
105gr BTHP - 2800 fps

(All of my numbers above are for sea level or very close to it.)

I do not yet reload, so factory ammo may be a factor. It is my intention to start reloading for .450 Bushmaster, 9mil luger, and whatever rifle is decided upon, but currently I have no equipment, and very little reloading experience. (Mostly watching others).
That .224 Valkyrie looks interesting, but nearly as expensive to shoot as the .450B. Hopefully, reloading will make ammo a bit less expensive.
Grendel has also crossed my mind.

I need to scope a 6mm Grendel barrel or build upper.

Where to look?

So with all the new gun legislation in WA recently being enacted, are you guys going to have to get permission slips to buy or build a new one now?

MM

Thanks, I kind of pay attention to what you and a few others post but I'm sometimes a little slow... If you were getting those numbers with a 12" barrel vs a 20", I thought I might need to look a little closer.

Washington state is still trying to figure things out. Fully assembled MSRs get slammed with new fees, additional paperwork and wait times. Until state figures things out, stripped lowers and builds get a free pass and are transferred with a 4473 and fed background check.

Not much. Probably falls flat on its face where a heavy .223 cal would surpass it. Id be looking at something like the 77 TMK in the 556 and call it a day.

That 243 must have similar case capacity as my 6WOA .

Look for something that has a good track record in regards to long range precision. That will take a little research. I went with a 6WOA, because John Holliger designed it and competed with it. Its not supposed to be finicky. The one i have is a little on the finicky side though, but i took it out yesterday and did some ladder testing. Switched powders and its showing some promise:

Nah, see my post above. The slow Grendel drops more but outperforms heavy 5.56 in pretty much every other way, even from my short 12.5" barrel. I didn't think that would be the case until I built one and started shooting it, but time behind the rifle shows what's what.



Case capacity is similar, but the short Grendel case leaves a lot more room in the magazine for long bullets, which is important for a long range gun. Long VLD style bullets are no problem at all in my 243 LBC with ASC mags; my 95gr VLD load above is only seated out to 2.235", with room to go out to ~2.310" if I need to.
I would guess that same bullet or anything longer in your 6mm WOA would choking up pretty close to the ogive, if it fits at all; are you able to use it?

Keep in mind the 6mm Grendel-based wildcats are essentially the old 6mm PPC accuracy champ set up for heavy bullets and with the shoulder bumped forward slightly.

The other part of my preference is that I've had much better luck with quality and longevity of Grendel brass than I have with SPC brass.

Thats good info yondering. Your 243 is a shooter too.

I think I was editing while you replied, see the question I added above about your WOA. Are you pretty limited in selection of long heavy bullets for that one?

Yondering,

I can’t recall if your 12.5” Grendel is an SBR or pistol?

If pistol, what buffer are you using?

I have both SBR and pistol lowers so I use it both ways as appropriate, but usually it's on an SBR lower. Standard carbine buffer and spring either way. I prefer to tune the gas system rather than swap buffers around. Since I made the barrel myself, I snuck up on the gas port size until it was right. If you're buying a barrel, I'd plan on some sort of adjustable gas block.

I do use a Bootleg adjustable bolt carrier to switch between suppressed and unsuppressed; the short barrel and larger case (compared to 5.56) produces a lot of gas.

Missed this earlier.

243 LBC from Black Hole Weaponry. I went 24", standard profile, and would 100% get the same thing again; it's a really good shooter.

Thanks!

Meant to type “score” but autocorrect hates me.

Wow.

That's a sweet looking rig.

I imagine is shoots as good as it looks?

What stock do you have on it, and how do you like it?

Thanks A.S. It is just a magpul PRS (gen 2). That's the stock I have on all of my AR's. I need the longer LOP it provides..As for it shooting good, I'm working on it. I started out with some loads the original owner was using, but it didn't seem to like 8208 as well as I thought it should. I was getting some weird flyers. I actually chit canned everything I got from that guy and just used the barrel. Supposed to be a fluted match grade Shilen. Has Dan Carey's name scribed on it under the Hand guard. Here's the first 11 shots fired from the rifle with AR comp powder:

I was hoping to see some difference in POI, as each shot was .1 grain higher than the last. Started with 26 grains and got a velocity of 2,738 fps. Shot 11 had a velocity of 2,894. Max velocity was 3,037 with an 85 grain sierra HPBT gameking...

From looking at the group dispersion, I'm thinking shot #8 may be the node I'm after. The velocity of that one was 2,877 fps... I was using brand new starline brass that I was fireforming, so accuracy should improve next go around...These WOA are supposed to be shooters, but from my limited experience with this one, they are picky sob's... Very unlike my el-cheapo 5.56 Windham weaponry barrel on my Northtech Defense....

BSA,

Thank you for sharing. I need to build out another precision lower, and the PRS just might be the stock I'm looking for.

I've played with the 85gr Game Kings in my 6x45, but so far have had equal or better luck with the 95gr NBT's. They might be another option for you.

1.3 MOA on an 11 shot ladder isn't that bad a start. You might be close to braking an moa on 10 shots than you think.

Thanks buddy. I'll look into those noslers. I might head over to SPS right now and see if they have any blems or seconds. My hope is to break moa for 2 consecutive groups, as in the black rifle challenge. I think you may be right. Good luck with your build. The only complaint most guys have about the PRS is the weight, but for most of my rifles with 20"+ barrels, it helps to balance out the rifle. I like them:



The newer gen 3 PRS may be slightly lighter than the gen2. The gen 3 also has more adjustment. Try one, you may find you like it too...
If the OP was into the 6.5 creedmoor, it would extend the range quite a bit. I was in Nevada a couple weekends ago and fired off a 1.5" 3 shot sighter group at 400 yards. After that, I let my son shoot it for the rest of the day. The creed shoots pretty good, especially at longer range. Here's how she does at 100:



I see good things to come in the future with this rifle (second from the bottom in the pic above), as the barrel breaks in and I find the best load for it... Seriously, if I were in search for a good long range AR, the 6.5 creed would be at the top of the list...

BSA,

That's some great shooting.

At some point I really should build an AR Creed, with a matching .308 upper...

They are both great to have. Good for any AR collection..

Those guns make me tired just looking at them.

Sounds like a personal problem. Even the 6.5 creed is 9.1 pounds. The heaviest one in the pic is my 308 and it is a pig at 10 pounds. It gets shot off the bi-pod a lot, where weight really isnt a concern.

Have you weighed those on an accurate scale, or are these bathroom scale numbers? Bathroom scales are often way off at the low end of their range.

I've weighed a bunch of ARs with a confirmed accurate scale, and from what I've seen there's no way that heavy barrel 308 with a PRS stock is only 10 pounds. 13-14 lb is probably more realistic, and possibly heavier. No offense intended, those just don't seem like realistic weights, especially if the scope is included.

AR's get heavy fast.

This little 10.5" is 7lb, 10 oz.

We all have our crosses to bear...

Keeping in mind, that I will eventually want to reload for them, and currently have little or no real experience doing so, are any of these chamberings offered easier or harder to reload? Any problems to work around? Any idea on costs to reload for comparison? (I'm new to this)

AR-15 & distance: 6.5Grendel. Also good for medium sized game where 6.5G is legal.

There are at least two reloading books just for the 6.5Grendel sold from Alexander Arms, plus a forum dedicated to it on 65grendel.com.

You can keep it under 6lbs before ammo & optics with a LW or ULW 16" bbl. Mass of AR15s goes up quickly, the longer the bbl. A 9 or 10lb AR15 is a non-starter for me.

I guess most here have never Jesus carried a 240B?? Now that’s a heavy ph ucking weapon..

I'm 55 years old or will be if I make it to the 25th, weigh 225 lbs, do 100 pushups every morning and run 5 miles 3 times a week unless I'm training for something. Light weight guns are what I like, others like heavyweights, that's okay too.

Lighten up Francis.

I weigh about 495lbs and eat a box of Twinkie’s by 0900 every morning.

Most of the cartridges mentioned here are pretty easy and straightforward to load for with no special considerations needed for any of them. 223/5.56 is probably the easiest for a beginner just because brass and load info is so plentiful, but there's no handicap with the other cartridges either. 6.5 Grendel cases can be formed from 7.62x39 pretty easily if you need to, and as far as wildcats go the 6mm Grendel-based wildcats are as easy as it gets - you can just run normal 6.5 Grendel brass through your sizing die and load it.

The only one I see that would present any challenge is the Valkyrie, just because the brass is less common. If you shoot a bunch of factory ammo though, just save your brass until you're ready to load your own.

Also - all of these are worth loading your own ammo if you're really interested in chasing long range accuracy. The ability to tune your load to your rifle can make a big difference in most guns.


On the topic of rifle weight - I'll agree that I prefer light weight ARs (and an AR can be very lightweight, even compared to a trim bolt action, if you want). A heavy AR on a bench or prone does shoot nicely though and is no handicap if you're not carrying it around much.

I recently built a 6.5 Creedmoor AR for a friend that was configured similarly to some of BSA's rifles above but slightly lighter - .750" straight profile 22" barrel, lightweight Leupold 4-12x, and a PRS stock. Final weight on that with an empty mag, no bipod: 13.6 lb.
My own 243 LBC has a 24" standard profile barrel, 10x SS, and Magpul ACS-L stock; it came in almost exactly 10 lb. I consider that one a bench gun; my preference for a walking around AR is more like 6-7 lb.

This is my .450 Bushmaster. Target was at 100yards, and the high shot hole is from my volenteer spotter. (After sighting in, I put up a fresh target, and first shot was dead on the money and decided it was good enough. My spotter was shooting a 45-70 lever next to me. He liked "Thumper" quite a bit.

https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/13769535/Searchpage/1/Main/931961/Words/%2Btag/Search/true/450bushmaster-ar#Post13769535

(Don't know what changed, but links are not working properly for me)

.223 and .308 are both very easy to reload for. Biggest problem with both is too many good load combinations to choose from.

Wouldn't I need a AR-10 lower for .308?

Ah, too many threads, but yes, .308 is a different lower.

Additionally your instinct about the 5.56 being a good place to start is a good one.

Build a 5.56, play tinker toys with it, figure them out a bit, then go from there....

Yes. Guys also need to keep in mind you are wanting a "long range" upper. To me this means you are going to be shooting it off a bench or bipods. Thats where, to me, weight is of little concern. Its actually wanted in a lot of instances. It helps to mitigate recoil and get back on target. Id weigh my ar's if i thought it would help, but i assure you my ar10 isnt as heavy as yonderings buddies 13.5 pound beast. From the factory it weighs 9 pounds. With a burris scope and mount, add another pound and a half. ALL of my ar's shoot sub moa and are in the black rifle challenge here. TWR's, not so much. Maybe he could learn from this thread and understand what it actually takes to produce a "long range" AR. A fly weight with a short pencil barrel would be my last choice for anything where accuracy and precision are concerned.

LOL, I've been down that road and it's a dead end. I easily tire of the bench and prefer all around, do it all guns. My Noveskies made sub MOA for 10, I just never could get a second group on the same paper. Blame that on me, not the guns.

But to be sure I'm taking notes...

Or was it the light barrel?

However, in the end, you could both be right. I have stuff at both ends of the spectrum and some in between as well.

Again no offense intended, but 9 lb in a large frame AR with a heavy barrel and a PRS stock? No way, not even if you removed the bolt carrier and magazine... Maybe with one of the Magpul carbine stocks like an ACS, but a PRS adds a full 2 lb on top of that. Those are heavy beasts and add a lot of weight to any AR. If your 9 lb weight was listed before adding the PRS it would make sense; my relatively lightweight 18" slim barrel 308 is 8 lb with an ACS-L stock, and you've probably got about 1 lb more barrel than my 308.

Like I said, nothing wrong with a heavy rifle for what you're doing, but I don't think your rifles can be as light as you're saying. The Creedmoor I built for a buddy has a lighter profile barrel than yours, and a lighter scope, but is pretty similar otherwise; I'm not sure how to imagine yours would be any lighter at all, much less 3-4 lb lighter. You may be under-estimating the weight of parts you've added.

Don't go by bathroom scale weights or manufacturer listed weights, neither are accurate most of the time. It doesn't really matter for actual shooting or comparing your own rifles to each other, but it does matter when you're telling other people what they weigh. It's kinda like catching an 8" long fish and saying it was a foot long.

Given what he's said through the thread, I agree, largely because of ammo availability and price. Anybody getting started in shooting long range should plan to shoot a lot, and that's hard to do if your ammo costs too much. 5.56 isn't the best long range round by a large margin, but a decent rifle with a bucket of 75gr or 77gr ammo and plenty of range time will do a lot more good than chasing the best and shiniest long range cartridge.

Of course it's pretty easy to swap a barrel later or just build another rifle or upper when he's ready for the next step.

Kellory - for clarification, both the 308 and 6.5 Creedmoor require a large frame AR, which is a different beast entirely from the AR15. It's more than just a different lower; it's a whole different gun, although some small parts interchange and they work the same way.

Kellory,
reading what your basic wants are there’s no way I couldn’t recommend a stag 15 upper. It is the cheapest way to get into an upper that will shoot all the better quality factory ammo very well and should you decide to start handloading like you said it’s the cheapest route there as well.
You want to shoot a bunch you need to think about cost.

Nothing is cheaper and easier starting off than a 223 case and a hornady 75 bthp.
If you’ve never reloaded before you don’t need to get bogged down with resizing this or that. You also don’t need to get distracted with weight issue as you said “long range” and that frankly doesn’t lean towards light.

Yes that upper is heavy. You’ll note that most long range rifles tend to have some meat to them. But mine and all 5 others that I have seen and shot are very impressive for the money.

Many of those guys^^^ know their stuff and shoot more than I..but With your parameters I think you should stick with that upper and the best ammo you can buy. Then shoot..

Mine is a simple stag with a 16x SWFA and can assure you that setup has smoked many combos costing 5x as much

As ‘Stick would say in this situation, “there is no substitute for trigger time.”

Whatever you get, get lots of ammo and shoot it.

I am listening gentlemen. Thank you for your input.
The .450 Bushmaster is designed for 300yds accuracy. By "longer range", I do not really mean targets shooting at 1k yards, I simply don't want to be limited to 300yards should the opportunity for an out of state hunt with different requirements arise.
At some point, I will also have an upper for small game, such as prairie dogs as well. (I have been paid to shoot rats, at one time).
My aim here, is the Lego Rifle. Different hunts, different uppers.

may I suggest the 25-223...

Another interesting flavor, and some light reading...

https://www.ar15.com/forums/ar-15/25_223/121-499109/

(I have not read all the way through this yet, but it does look interesting. But unless I'm missing something, it seems to be another short range rifle choice, by the way they speak about it's use. (150yrds or so) I have that covered with the .450 Bushmaster.

Yeah, but how many pushups can you eat?

300 BO ...thank me later

Good suggestion and we know they shoot. I like the idea of the 556 chamber and heavy bullets too. Damn, if he's looking for a good 556 upper, I have a good upper that I may consider letting go. It shoots damn near as good as my Stag, but is a Noveske and it's lighter. It has a 20" barrel, instead of the 6h stag 24" heavy barrel. But, if the op already has a 223/556 upper, he may be in search of something with a little more charm. He'd probably have to hand load for a cartridge like that, because it won't be cheap or available. There are a lot of wildcat cartridges out there and some new fast 22 cals that he could look at. Kelory, have you considered the 6x45? That is an interesting cartridge and will run with your lower and you can use the same BCG. With something like my 6WOA, you have to use a different bolt (6.8 SPC). I wanted a slicker BCG, so I went with a nickle boron carrier with a 6.8 spc bolt. If you went to the hot valkyrie, you'd have to use a 6.8 SPC bolt as well...

It would be a hard hitter (like my .450) and quiet (comparably) but still only a short range hunting round. (I looked hard at it before building my .450 Bushmaster. The .300BO has it's following, but since I'm not building a short barrelled suppressed rifle, I do not see much advance in building a second upper in .300BO. Thanks anyways.

Sir, at present I have one .450 Bushmaster upper, and am looking at options for longer range hunting. If the price is right, and the range is a significant increase over the .450 Bushmaster, I may indeed be interested in a used 5.56 upper. My OP was to see if there were better choices.
Perhaps a few pics and info in a PM would be in order?

Sure, I'll do it out in the open. I have nothing to hide. It's an excellent low mileage Noveske barreled upper. I took the parts from my recent 6WOA that was built by Dan Carey. I don't know the manufacture of the upper receiver, but it has the original Noveske BCG. I will shoot it in this configuration and see how it fares:




I'll shoot it later today. I won't sell anything that isn't accurate... Just sayin..

I can appreciate that.

More like “thank me never.”

If there was ever a solution in search of a problem, it’s the 300 BO.

Get a 50 Beowulf

Like you would know

I looked at that as well, before settling on the Bushmaster. Availability, costs, and performance, and the ability to use standard mags for an AR decided the issue. Both were due to be added to the (then) allowed list for Ohio deer. The rules have since been changed to allow any straight wall cartridge or tapered wall cartridge from .357-.50cal.
However, both cartridges are intended for short range rifle. That is redundant in this case, and not worth considering for a rifle with more reach than I have now.

I repeat, my intent is for use where I am not limited to "short range rifle ".

PLEASE enlighten me to the trajectory that qualifies the 300 BO as a longer range cartridge?

I've owned and sold four uppers in 300 BO because the only thing they might do good is CQB.

And for all of the talk of the "special forces" using them, none of the SF guys I've asked use them in combat, and none of our TACP guys have seen it used in the sandbox.

If it's mo betta, what exactly is it mo betta than?

Mo betta than a swift kick in the azz or sharp stick in the eye. Other than that, absolutely worthless for a "long range" rig. And if im not mistaken, thats what the op is looking for.

It's specifically suited to short range, suppressed, small, light rifles. It was designed to run through an AR with minimal change required (barrel change), and if memory serves, it was designed for two different kind of rifles interchangeably.
It will also blow a rifle apart if chambered and fired from a 5.56 by mistake. (Iirc, it will chamber in a 5.56)
(Yes. I read alot)

I would stick with 223 and a 77 grain match bullet. Turn key answer. I bet that upper will see a lot of use.

^^^^^
It’s like the elephant in the room in regards to the parameters you set forth...

I just can’t understand how these threads always go.....
50 beuwolf? 300 blackout.. really??
Did you read what he wanted to do with this upper?

This or the Black Hills 75 grain Hornady.

Either would be one and done on most soft targets.

I just bought some 77 gr sierra tmk bullets. If i can get them to shoot well in my rifles, thats what ill use. Good suggestion.

The 77gr tmk with 24.5gr of varget does very well out to 600yds. Shot one of my best scores using that combo. The Sierra 77gr otm is a pretty good bullet as well.

Curious as to your findings, sir. Did you have the opportunity to test it?

Sorry my friend. Too dang busy to do any shooting this weekend. I wanted to shoot my 6woa as well, but daughters exhaust manifold needed to be replaced.

Priorities. Take your time, sir, I'm in no hurry.

I picked this one up 2 years ago. I haven't shot it over 50 yards yet. But, at 50 I'm pretty much using the same hole over and over. The price is right if you have an upper and a bolt laying around and you can do your own work assembling it.
https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1003430710?pid=577053

That's a nice barrel. I have to ask, why only 50 yards? Are you limited to just a 50 yard range? Also, keeping in mind the op is looking for a "long range" upper. I don't really know how a rifle barrel shot at 50 yards would even apply to what the op is looking for... Fill us in please..

"Sorry my friend. Too dang busy to do any shooting this weekend. I wanted to shoot my 6woa as well, but daughters exhaust manifold needed to be replaced. [/quote]"
Assuming you like how it shoots, you want to PM me a price, and shipping details, so we can see if this is feasible?.

Hi kellory, ive been out of state dealing with the death of a loved one. Ill have to postpone selling anything right now. I apologize. I still agree with the guys saying to find a good accurate 556 or .223 rem. Probably 18-20" tube. I really like the rifle length gas system. They are much smoother and mitigate recoil better.

Take your time, sir. Just lost an uncle myself, Friday. Life has a way of diverting your attention from time to time.