Have you ever read the questions on the 4473 form when you buy a firearm?
Have you ever been adjudicated as a mental defective OR have you ever been committed to a mental institution?
There it is. The proviso is already there. Just insert that into the instant check database and presto, at least for the ones on file...
A good principle to guide me through life: “This is all I have come to expect, standard lackluster performance. Trust nothing, believe no one and realize it will only get worse…”
f. Have you ever been adjudicated as a mental defective OR have you ever been committed to a mental institution? (See Instructions for Question 11.f.)
Quote
Question 11.f. Adjudicated as a Mental Defective: A determination by a court, board, commission, or other lawful authority that a person, as a result of marked subnormal intelligence, or mental illness, incompetency, condition, or disease: (1) is a danger to himself or to others; or (2) lacks the mental capacity to contract or manage his own affairs. This term shall include: (1) a finding of insanity by a court in a criminal case; and (2) those persons found incompetent to stand trial or found not guilty by reason of lack of mental responsibility. Committed to a Mental Institution: A formal commitment of a person to a mental institution by a court, board, commission, or other lawful authority. The term includes a commitment to a mental institution involuntarily. The term includes commitment for mental defectiveness or mental illness. It also includes commitments for other reasons, such as for drug use. The term does not include a person in a mental institution for observation or a voluntary admission to a mental institution. EXCEPTION: Under the NICS Improvement Amendments Act of 2007, a person who has been adjudicated as a mental defective or committed to a mental institution in a State proceeding is not prohibited by the adjudication or commitment if ATF E-Form 4473 (5300.9) Revised October 2016the person has been granted relief by the adjudicating/committing State pursuant to a qualifying mental health relief from disabilities program. Also, a person who has been adjudicated as a mental defective or committed to a mental institution by a department or agency of Federal Government is not prohibited by the adjudication or commitment if either: (a) the person's adjudication or commitment was set-aside or expunged by the adjudicating/committing agency; (b) the person has been fully released or discharged from all mandatory treatment, supervision, or monitoring by the agency; (c) the person was found by the agency to no longer suffer from the mental health condition that served as the basis of the initial adjudication/commitment; or (d) the adjudication or commitment, respectively, is based solely on a medical finding of disability, without an opportunity for a hearing by a court, board, commission, or other lawful authority, and the person has not been adjudicated as a mental defective consistent with section 922(g)(4) of title 18, United States Code; (e) the person was granted relief from the adjudicating/committing agency pursuant to a qualified mental health relief from disabilities program. Persons who fall within one of the above exceptions should answer "no" to question 11.f. This exception to an adjudication or commitment by a Federal department or agency does not apply to any person who was adjudicated to be not guilty by reason of insanity, or based on lack of mental responsibility, or found incompetent to stand trial, in any criminal case or under the Uniform Code of Military Justice.
A good principle to guide me through life: “This is all I have come to expect, standard lackluster performance. Trust nothing, believe no one and realize it will only get worse…”
Regarding Red Flag "Laws," I believe we first must look at the main reasons these mass shootings occur in the first place, which is largely due to out of control Marxist/Leftist political correctness/policy – specifically the shuttering of mental health institutions and psychiatric hospitals nationwide. This has resulted in a deluge of mentally unstable people in every city and almost on every street corner. I see these mentally deranged people walking the streets all the time and I am sure everyone else has as well, especially in large cities like Los Angeles, San Fran, Seattle, Baltimore, NY, Chicago, Detroit, etc. In fact, every city that is Democrat or Leftist controlled has a disproportionate share of mentally unstable people, many of whom are homeless... Which begs the question: Which came first: the mentally unstable populace or the Democrat/Leftist control?
Prior to the rise of PC politics, and prior to the time the PC Brigade/Progressive Machine determined that mental health institutions were inhumane and pushed to have them closed, such mass shootings as we recently experienced in El Paso and Dayton were extremely rare and there certainly wasn't an epidemic of homelessness and mentally ill people roaming the streets and wreaking havoc. I am not stating that these problems didn't exist, they did, but to a much lesser extent. Based on these facts, it's clear that closing these mental hospitals/institutions was a huge mistake.
Pure and simple, these Red Flag Laws are blatantly unconstitutional. They deny Americans their Constitutionally guaranteed right to due process as well as their 4th Amendment rights. We must see these laws as what they are: nothing more than an excuse to disarm Americans, while circumventing our Constitutional rights. Red Flag Laws are a “solution” to a problem which was caused by the very people (idiot Leftists) who created the problem(s) in the first place. These laws are yet another stepping stone in an all-out effort to reach the Marxists’ real goal – totally disarming the AMERICAN PUBLIC. Americans must understand just how insidious and vile the Left really is. The Left will stop at nothing to achieve their goals. When an idea of theirs fails, they try a different method and when that fails they try another - ad nauseam. There are literally thousands and thousands of examples of their treacherous methods. Red Flag Laws are yet another underhanded and disingenuous method of the Left to usher in a whole new set of gun control laws aimed at total disarmament of the American Public - the proverbial "slippery slope," is quite apt here. Just who, exactly, is tasked with setting the standard for these laws - certainly not Conservatives. Who, exactly, ensures that law-abiding citizens aren’t targeted by some lunatic leftist neighbor with a grudge against Conservatives, and who will guarantee that these red flag laws aren’t abused? I’ll tell you who – NO ONE! That is the point of these laws: to incrementally disarm those that are deemed a danger – a danger against the Progressive Machine and the globalist agenda. These laws have nothing whatever to do with protecting our children or the American Public. They have everything to do with disarming the American Public and exerting their power over every aspect of our lives. Anyone who believes otherwise is a fool.
Last edited by High_Noon; 08/14/19.
l told my pap and mam I was going to be a mountain man; acted like they was gut-shot. Make your life go here. Here's where the peoples is. Mother Gue, I says, the Rocky Mountains is the marrow of the world, and by God, I was right. - Del Gue
Funny you should mention Marxism. Carl Marx believed that the people should be armed. Lenin did too, until the time came that they might be turned on him.
The older I become the more I am convinced that the voice of honor in a man's heart is the voice of GOD.
More often than not it's impossible to predict who might be the next to snap and go on a killing rampage. Individual circumstances built up over a period of time or even on a given day or moment may well be the final trigger for some as any diagnosed with clinical mental illness:
Regarding Red Flag "Laws," I believe we first must look at the main reasons these mass shootings occur in the first place, which is largely due to out of control Marxist/Leftist political correctness/policy – specifically the shuttering of mental health institutions and psychiatric hospitals nationwide. This has resulted in a deluge of mentally unstable people in every city and almost on every street corner. I see these mentally deranged people walking the streets all the time and I am sure everyone else has as well, especially in large cities like Los Angeles, San Fran, Seattle, Baltimore, NY, Chicago, Detroit, etc. In fact, every city that is Democrat or Leftist controlled has a disproportionate share of mentally unstable people, many of whom are homeless... Which begs the question: Which came first: the mentally unstable populace or the Democrat/Leftist control?
Prior to the rise of PC politics, and prior to the time the PC Brigade/Progressive Machine determined that mental health institutions were inhumane and pushed to have them closed, such mass shootings as we recently experienced in El Paso and Dayton were extremely rare and there certainly wasn't an epidemic of homelessness and mentally ill people roaming the streets and wreaking havoc. I am not stating that these problems didn't exist, they did, but to a much lesser extent. Based on these facts, it's clear that closing these mental hospitals/institutions was a huge mistake.
Pure and simple, these Red Flag Laws are blatantly unconstitutional. They deny Americans their Constitutionally guaranteed right to due process as well as their 4th Amendment rights. We must see these laws as what they are: nothing more than an excuse to disarm Americans, while circumventing our Constitutional rights. Red Flag Laws are a “solution” to a problem which was caused by the very people (idiot Leftists) who created the problem(s) in the first place. These laws are yet another stepping stone in an all-out effort to reach the Marxists’ real goal – totally disarming the AMERICAN PUBLIC. Americans must understand just how insidious and vile the Left really is. The Left will stop at nothing to achieve their goals. When an idea of theirs fails, they try a different method and when that fails they try another - ad nauseam. There are literally thousands and thousands of examples of their treacherous methods. Red Flag Laws are yet another underhanded and disingenuous method of the Left to usher in a whole new set of gun control laws aimed at total disarmament of the American Public - the proverbial "slippery slope," is quite apt here. Just who, exactly, is tasked with setting the standard for these laws - certainly not Conservatives. Who, exactly, ensures that law-abiding citizens aren’t targeted by some lunatic leftist neighbor with a grudge against Conservatives, and who will guarantee that these red flag laws aren’t abused? I’ll tell you who – NO ONE! That is the point of these laws: to incrementally disarm those that are deemed a danger – a danger against the Progressive Machine and the globalist agenda. These laws have nothing whatever to do with protecting our children or the American Public. They have everything to do with disarming the American Public and exerting their power over every aspect of our lives. Anyone who believes otherwise is a fool.
Yes, it transforms the right to keep and bear arms into the privilege of doing so "during good behavior." The "during good behavior" part is the arbitrary component, depending on the definition of "good behavior" according to whoever is pulling the trigger on it. Once the trigger is pulled, due process is out the window, because the way it's set up, judges merely become rubber stamps under the "better safe than sorry" rationale.
Yes, it transforms the right to keep and bear arms into the privilege of doing so "during good behavior." The "during good behavior" part is the arbitrary component, depending on the definition of "good behavior" according to whoever is pulling the trigger on it. Once the trigger is pulled, due process is out the window, because the way it's set up, judges merely become rubber stamps under the "better safe than sorry" rationale.
It's hard enough telling a loved one in person they shouldn't drive anymore. It's pretty easy dropping the dime on someone you don't like and claim they're dangerous.
For even when we were with you, we gave you this rule: "If a man will not work, he shall not eat."
“The folks taking meds are likely already prohibited from owing a firearm.”
Why? Are the effects of the drugs somehow different than the effects of bipolar on the brain?
Prohibited ownership includes: Who has been adjudicated as a mental defective or has been committed to any mental institution;
If they're on drugs to modify their behavior after there has been an intervention then there is a very high likelihood that they fall into the first category to some degree. But I'm no mental health professional.
If the drugs work, and they take them, then I imagine they don't but how they establish a clean bill of health I don't know and that concerns me.
This is for a background check for new purchases, or includes existing firearms? I’m think new purchases. But then how do you deny a new purchase to somebody with the same conditions as a existing gun owner?
I’m not advocating a right or wrong side, I’m genuinely interested in everyone’s input and opinions. I see points on both sides and have no doubts liberals would abuse any new laws inacted, I’m just wondering how people feel about mental health and firearms, because I have heard it many, many times, “the signs were there, people spoke out, it was ingnored.”
Well it really want ignored, the system prevents any type of pre-emtive action.
As part of the CCW process at least in the county I live in , they go thru your medical records(supposedly) and you fill out a consent form for mental health records .
Regarding Red Flag "Laws," I believe we first must look at the main reasons these mass shootings occur in the first place, which is largely due to out of control Marxist/Leftist political correctness/policy – specifically the shuttering of mental health institutions and psychiatric hospitals nationwide. This has resulted in a deluge of mentally unstable people in every city and almost on every street corner. I see these mentally deranged people walking the streets all the time and I am sure everyone else has as well, especially in large cities like Los Angeles, San Fran, Seattle, Baltimore, NY, Chicago, Detroit, etc. In fact, every city that is Democrat or Leftist controlled has a disproportionate share of mentally unstable people, many of whom are homeless... Which begs the question: Which came first: the mentally unstable populace or the Democrat/Leftist control?
Prior to the rise of PC politics, and prior to the time the PC Brigade/Progressive Machine determined that mental health institutions were inhumane and pushed to have them closed, such mass shootings as we recently experienced in El Paso and Dayton were extremely rare and there certainly wasn't an epidemic of homelessness and mentally ill people roaming the streets and wreaking havoc. I am not stating that these problems didn't exist, they did, but to a much lesser extent. Based on these facts, it's clear that closing these mental hospitals/institutions was a huge mistake.
Pure and simple, these Red Flag Laws are blatantly unconstitutional. They deny Americans their Constitutionally guaranteed right to due process as well as their 4th Amendment rights. We must see these laws as what they are: nothing more than an excuse to disarm Americans, while circumventing our Constitutional rights. Red Flag Laws are a “solution” to a problem which was caused by the very people (idiot Leftists) who created the problem(s) in the first place. These laws are yet another stepping stone in an all-out effort to reach the Marxists’ real goal – totally disarming the AMERICAN PUBLIC. Americans must understand just how insidious and vile the Left really is. The Left will stop at nothing to achieve their goals. When an idea of theirs fails, they try a different method and when that fails they try another - ad nauseam. There are literally thousands and thousands of examples of their treacherous methods. Red Flag Laws are yet another underhanded and disingenuous method of the Left to usher in a whole new set of gun control laws aimed at total disarmament of the American Public - the proverbial "slippery slope," is quite apt here. Just who, exactly, is tasked with setting the standard for these laws - certainly not Conservatives. Who, exactly, ensures that law-abiding citizens aren’t targeted by some lunatic leftist neighbor with a grudge against Conservatives, and who will guarantee that these red flag laws aren’t abused? I’ll tell you who – NO ONE! That is the point of these laws: to incrementally disarm those that are deemed a danger – a danger against the Progressive Machine and the globalist agenda. These laws have nothing whatever to do with protecting our children or the American Public. They have everything to do with disarming the American Public and exerting their power over every aspect of our lives. Anyone who believes otherwise is a fool.
But you have to look back at why the mental institutions were shuttered. When the courts decided it was unconstitutional to hold or medicate anyone against their will, who had broken no law, society left it to the mentally ill to decide if they wanted or needed to be institutionalized. So I think there you have it backwards, the mentally ill aren’t all over the streets because the institutions were shuttered, they were shuttered because the mentally ill started choosing to not attend.
As part of the CCW process at least in the county I live in , they go thru your medical records(supposedly) and you fill out a consent form for mental health records .
Interesting, what state is this?
If my CA county does this, it’s in the fine print.
Then that's the price we pay for freedom over security. I am perfectly fine with leaving things as they are. No, I take that back, we need to get rid of about 90% of the current oppressive and unconstitutional laws we have now.
Either enforce the current laws or STFU is all I have to say. ADDING more laws is rarely the answer[and damn sure isn't here]. Punishments that fit crimes would go a long ways.
So I think most believe the mentally ill and firearms are a bad mix. So I am curious about your opinions, and at what step (if any) in the process,
Operative word "due" as in 'due process" that we already have in place and keeping with the spirit and law of our Bill Of Rights and the Constitution... PERIOD
Re: 'red flag laws' - due process does not apply...... Which - IMHO - it total bullshit...
Ex- USN (SS) '66-'69 Pro-Constitution. LET'S GO BRANDON!!!
So I think most believe the mentally ill and firearms are a bad mix. So I am curious about your opinions, and at what step (if any) in the process,
Operative word "due" as in 'due process" that we already have in place and keeping with the spirit and law of our Bill Of Rights and the Constitution... PERIOD
Re: 'red flag laws' - due process does not apply...... Which - IMHO - it total bullshit...
Well unfortunately OUR Gov't gives two f u c k s NOT.
Funny you should mention Marxism. Carl Marx believed that the people should be armed. Lenin did too, until the time came that they might be turned on him.
Exactly. "In order for a full-blown tyranny to take hold, the people must first be disarmed," Sir William Blackwell
Originally Posted by The_Real_Hawkeye
Yes, it transforms the right to keep and bear arms into the privilege of doing so "during good behavior." The "during good behavior" part is the arbitrary component, depending on the definition of "good behavior" according to whoever is pulling the trigger on it. Once the trigger is pulled, due process is out the window, because the way it's set up, judges merely become rubber stamps under the "better safe than sorry" rationale.
"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety," Benjamin Franklin
Originally Posted by Barkoff
But you have to look back at why the mental institutions were shuttered. When the courts decided it was unconstitutional to hold or medicate anyone against their will, who had broken no law, society left it to the mentally ill to decide if they wanted or needed to be institutionalized. So I think there you have it backwards, the mentally ill aren’t all over the streets because the institutions were shuttered, they were shuttered because the mentally ill started choosing to not attend.
Respectfully, I disagree. I don't have to look back at why mental institutions were shuttered, I know why. Mental institutions were shuttered as a direct result of the Progressive Machine/PC Brigade's involvement. Certainly, most mentally deficient individuals opt not to be medicated - they are mentally deficient - and as such, are not fit to make these decisions for themselves. Many of these mentally impaired people do not have families or relatives at all, no one who can be relied upon to make such decisions on their behalf. Previously, in such cases, these people became wards of the State. Furthermore, society did not leave the mentally ill to decide for themselves whether or not they wanted to be medicated or institutionalized; rather, it was and is a direct result of the Federal Gov't., the State's and law enforcement's inability to provide proper care for these people - it is the de facto state as determined by the current limitations. The Federal and State role in mental health is quite clear in providing care and services for these individuals, but they are hamstrung as a result of mental hospital closures nationwide.
Last edited by High_Noon; 08/14/19.
l told my pap and mam I was going to be a mountain man; acted like they was gut-shot. Make your life go here. Here's where the peoples is. Mother Gue, I says, the Rocky Mountains is the marrow of the world, and by God, I was right. - Del Gue
