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#14049576 - 08/14/19 Is There Ever a Right Time?  
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Barkoff Offline
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So I think most believe the mentally ill and firearms are a bad mix. So I am curious about your opinions, and at what step (if any) in the process, should law enforcement be allowed to take a firearm?

STEP 1 The hardest step. When friends, family or neighbors call authorities, and report, this MIP (Mentally Ill Person) is sick and may be a danger. From the time LEO's are in the academy, most are trained to ask those same two old questions. If s MIP answers "no" to each, and is not displaying any anger or aggression, even though the officers may see the person is not right, they will not go any further.

STEP 2 The police have witnessed anger and or aggression, maybe suicidal behavior and believe the MIP is a danger. They will take the MIP for a mental illness evaluation. Most likely this will be against there will, and possibly no crime has been committed. The MIP will be taken to a mental health facility or a local hospital who will then transfer them to a mental health facility if the ER doctor deems it necessary. Sometimes the ER doctor might kick them loose, determining that the MIP is not a danger to themselves or anyone else, even if they determine the person is indeed mentally ill. Keep in mind the MIP may not have committed any crime at this point, is it Constitutional to take them against their will to be evaluated?

STEP 3 If the physician in the mental illness facility deems the person is a danger to themselves or others, even though the MIP claims they are not, the MIP may be placed on a 5150, a three day hold. Keep in mind, no crime has been committed. On this 72 hour hold, the MIP pay not have medications forced upon them, if they do not desire medication.

STEP 4 Now at the end of the 72 hours, the person in charge of the MIP's care, must determine whether or not to release the MIP, or take it to the next level, to petition a judge for a 5250, which allows the mental facility to keep the MIP an additional two weeks against their will. At this point remember, no crime has been committed, medical illness professionals are using only opinion to hold the MIP. After a judge issues a 5250, the MIP is still not mandated to take any type of drugs they don't wish to, it can only be advised during their two week hold.

STEP 5, usually after the 5250 is completed, the MIP is released unless they have demonstrated acts of severe anger or violence. All through the five steps, the MIP can reject all advised medications. They may go out the front door in the exact same shape as they came in the door.



So during any of the described steps, would it be OK in your eyes to confiscate guns? Should it be determined by the judge petitioned for the 5250, the mental illness professional upon release, or would you say at no point should authorities be enabled to confiscate firearms?

Throughout the whole debate, it is always said, what do these shootings have in common? Well, most shooters are mentally ill, and have been seen as such by friends, neighbors or family, and yet nothing was done about it. So society and the courts have deemed nobody can be forced to take medications, we all see the sick people who are around our personal circle, so is there ever any appropriate time to disarm them?







300 BP

#14049647 - 08/14/19 Re: Is There Ever a Right Time? [Re: Barkoff]  
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jorgeI Offline
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Originally Posted by Barkoff
So I think most believe the mentally ill and firearms are a bad mix. So I am curious about your opinions, and at what step (if any) in the process,


Operative word "due" as in 'due process" that we already have in place and keeping with the spirit and law of our Bill Of Rights and the Constitution... PERIOD


Teddy Roosevelt, John Wayne, Winston Churchill paid to hunt....
#14049652 - 08/14/19 Re: Is There Ever a Right Time? [Re: jorgeI]  
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Barkoff Offline
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Barkoff  Offline
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Central CA
Originally Posted by jorgeI
Originally Posted by Barkoff
So I think most believe the mentally ill and firearms are a bad mix. So I am curious about your opinions, and at what step (if any) in the process,


Operative word "due" as in 'due process" that we already have in place and keeping with the spirit and law of our Bill Of Rights and the Constitution... PERIOD


Due process for what Jorge? So then your opinion will always be, no crime, then no taking of firearms?
Then you pretty much give up the right to say “authorities knew, and did nothing”.







#14049675 - 08/14/19 Re: Is There Ever a Right Time? [Re: Barkoff]  
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700LH Offline
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Gem State
Liberals ideals wanting to take guns again,,, here we go


“During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act.” ― George Orwell.

Member GOA,
Idaho 2nd Amendment Alliance,

#14049685 - 08/14/19 Re: Is There Ever a Right Time? [Re: Barkoff]  
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mtnsnake Offline
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It is unconstitutional.


Alpha

#14049687 - 08/14/19 Re: Is There Ever a Right Time? [Re: Barkoff]  
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jorgeI Offline
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Originally Posted by Barkoff
Originally Posted by jorgeI
Originally Posted by Barkoff
So I think most believe the mentally ill and firearms are a bad mix. So I am curious about your opinions, and at what step (if any) in the process,


Operative word "due" as in 'due process" that we already have in place and keeping with the spirit and law of our Bill Of Rights and the Constitution... PERIOD


Due process for what Jorge? So then your opinion will always be, no crime, then no taking of firearms?
Then you pretty much give up the right to say “authorities knew, and did nothing”.

Horseshit. We HAVE a process in place, everyone just ignores it because of political bullshit like what happened here in Florida. EVERYONE knew this guy was a nut, reported it to the cops AND the school. Our current laws have provisions to take this guy into custody (it's called the Baker Act here), have him evaluated by a psychiatrist, not some quack psychologist, then present to evidence to a judge to have him committed.


Teddy Roosevelt, John Wayne, Winston Churchill paid to hunt....
#14049696 - 08/14/19 Re: Is There Ever a Right Time? [Re: mtnsnake]  
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Barkoff Offline
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Originally Posted by mtnsnake
It is unconstitutional.


So is placing somebody on hold for three days, then two weeks without being charged with a crime, right?







#14049702 - 08/14/19 Re: Is There Ever a Right Time? [Re: jorgeI]  
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Barkoff Offline
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Barkoff  Offline
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Central CA
Originally Posted by jorgeI
Originally Posted by Barkoff
Originally Posted by jorgeI
Originally Posted by Barkoff
So I think most believe the mentally ill and firearms are a bad mix. So I am curious about your opinions, and at what step (if any) in the process,


Operative word "due" as in 'due process" that we already have in place and keeping with the spirit and law of our Bill Of Rights and the Constitution... PERIOD


Due process for what Jorge? So then your opinion will always be, no crime, then no taking of firearms?
Then you pretty much give up the right to say “authorities knew, and did nothing”.

Horseshit. We HAVE a process in place, everyone just ignores it because of political bullshit like what happened here in Florida. EVERYONE knew this guy was a nut, reported it to the cops AND the school. Our current laws have provisions to take this guy into custody (it's called the Baker Act here), have him evaluated by a psychiatrist, not some quack psychologist, then present to evidence to a judge to have him committed.


So then if he commits no crime, you are willing to lock him away on the opinion of a psychiatrist? What evidence will you present to a judge if he has not tried to commit suicide, nor committed a crime?

You have described the point I’m making, “everyone knew he was a nut, they reported it, nothing was done”.
So you are advocating locking him away though he commuted no crime, but you can’t take his firearm? Do I understand you correctly?







#14049706 - 08/14/19 Re: Is There Ever a Right Time? [Re: Barkoff]  
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jorgeI Offline
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Originally Posted by Barkoff
Originally Posted by jorgeI
Originally Posted by Barkoff
Originally Posted by jorgeI
Originally Posted by Barkoff
So I think most believe the mentally ill and firearms are a bad mix. So I am curious about your opinions, and at what step (if any) in the process,


Operative word "due" as in 'due process" that we already have in place and keeping with the spirit and law of our Bill Of Rights and the Constitution... PERIOD


Due process for what Jorge? So then your opinion will always be, no crime, then no taking of firearms?
Then you pretty much give up the right to say “authorities knew, and did nothing”.

Horseshit. We HAVE a process in place, everyone just ignores it because of political bullshit like what happened here in Florida. EVERYONE knew this guy was a nut, reported it to the cops AND the school. Our current laws have provisions to take this guy into custody (it's called the Baker Act here), have him evaluated by a psychiatrist, not some quack psychologist, then present to evidence to a judge to have him committed.


So then if he commits no crime, you are willing to lock him away on the opinion of a psychiatrist? What evidence will you present to a judge if he has not tried to commit suicide, nor committed a crime?


It is perfectly legal (operative word) to confine someone if he is deemed clinically ill (nuts) and a danger to himself and society. We do it ALL the time. Look up Baker Act. F U C K Red Flag laws.


Teddy Roosevelt, John Wayne, Winston Churchill paid to hunt....
#14049719 - 08/14/19 Re: Is There Ever a Right Time? [Re: jorgeI]  
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Barkoff Offline
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“It is perfectly legal (operative word) to confine someone if he is deemed clinically ill (nuts) and a danger to himself and society. We do it ALL the time. Look up Baker Act. F U C K Red Flag laws.“


You are not listening Jorge, what about the guy we know is nuts, but has not demonstrated he is a danger? Clinically ill is not a reason a mentally ill person will be confined on a permanent basis. He has to show extreme anger or violence, and that he is otherwise he is turned loose. If James Holmes would have shown acts of aggression and anger, he would have been in a institution, but I don’t believe he did.
Most of the time people around the mentally ill are worried what they MIGHT do, MIGHT DO is not a reason they will be confined.

You see, most here are perfectly willing to blame others, those who were told a person wasn’t right, but unless they have demonstrated they are a danger, then hands are tied, and you want them tied. You can’t preach the constitution on guns, then advocate locking people away who have not broken any laws.







Bravo

#14049743 - 08/14/19 Re: Is There Ever a Right Time? [Re: Barkoff]  
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jorgeI Offline
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Then that's the price we pay for freedom over security. I am perfectly fine with leaving things as they are. No, I take that back, we need to get rid of about 90% of the current oppressive and unconstitutional laws we have now.


Teddy Roosevelt, John Wayne, Winston Churchill paid to hunt....
#14049744 - 08/14/19 Re: Is There Ever a Right Time? [Re: jorgeI]  
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Barkoff Offline
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Barkoff  Offline
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Originally Posted by jorgeI
Then that's the price we pay for freedom over security. I am perfectly fine with leaving things as they are. No, I take that back, we need to get rid of about 90% of the current oppressive and unconstitutional laws we have now.


OK, fair enough.







#14049745 - 08/14/19 Re: Is There Ever a Right Time? [Re: jorgeI]  
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Pugs Offline
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Originally Posted by jorgeI
It is perfectly legal (operative word) to confine someone if he is deemed clinically ill (nuts) and a danger to himself and society. We do it ALL the time. Look up Baker Act. F U C K Red Flag laws.


Correct, my BIL has worked in this evaluation field for the last 30 years in southern Rhode Island. He has been called out to do evaluations at peoples home's by the police and at the hospital. His take on the whole issue of new Red Flag laws is this is an already established capability and process of the state and they have a really good track record of getting it right and these people not hurting themselves or others if he is called to do an eval. The people who call are the police, or often, the people experiencing the issue themselves (he has "regulars".)

Most often it's an overnight in the hospital and for those with known mental conditions and taking meds, that their meds are right and they are taking them. For the others it's most often a referral to a health professional, often just a counselor and not a full-blown psychiatrist.

The additional ability to remove someone's rights to own/handle he says is an issue because the state is not really well equipped to assess when that right should be returned. The folks taking meds are likely already prohibited from owing a firearm.


“The cure for boredom is curiosity. There is no cure for curiosity."
#14049752 - 08/14/19 Re: Is There Ever a Right Time? [Re: Barkoff]  
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watch4bear Offline
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I thought this thread would be a bout a blue pill grin


Son of a liberal: " What did you do in the War On Terror, Daddy?"

Liberal father: " I fought the Americans, along with all the other liberals."

MOLON LABE





#14049754 - 08/14/19 Re: Is There Ever a Right Time? [Re: Pugs]  
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Barkoff Offline
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Originally Posted by Pugs
Originally Posted by jorgeI
It is perfectly legal (operative word) to confine someone if he is deemed clinically ill (nuts) and a danger to himself and society. We do it ALL the time. Look up Baker Act. F U C K Red Flag laws.


Correct, my BIL has worked in this evaluation field for the last 30 years in southern Rhode Island. He has been called out to do evaluations at peoples home's by the police and at the hospital. His take on the whole issue of new Red Flag laws is this is an already established capability and process of the state and they have a really good track record of getting it right and these people not hurting themselves or others if he is called to do an eval. The people who call are the police, or often, the people experiencing the issue themselves (he has "regulars".)

Most often it's an overnight in the hospital and for those with known mental conditions and taking meds, that their meds are right and they are taking them. For the others it's most often a referral to a health professional, often just a counselor and not a full-blown psychiatrist.

The additional ability to remove someone's rights to own/handle he says is an issue because the state is not really well equipped to assess when that right should be returned. The folks taking meds are likely already prohibited from owing a firearm.



“The folks taking meds are likely already prohibited from owing a firearm.”

Why? Are the effects of the drugs somehow different than the effects of bipolar on the brain?








#14049761 - 08/14/19 Re: Is There Ever a Right Time? [Re: watch4bear]  
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Barkoff Offline
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Barkoff  Offline
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Originally Posted by watch4bear
I thought this thread would be a bout a blue pill grin



For those in need of Big Blue, it’s always the right time! 😁







#14049774 - 08/14/19 Re: Is There Ever a Right Time? [Re: Barkoff]  
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jorgeI Offline
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Here, he said it a lot better than I could:

[Linked Image]


Teddy Roosevelt, John Wayne, Winston Churchill paid to hunt....
#14049784 - 08/14/19 Re: Is There Ever a Right Time? [Re: Barkoff]  
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Pugs Offline
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Maryland :(
Originally Posted by Barkoff
“The folks taking meds are likely already prohibited from owing a firearm.”

Why? Are the effects of the drugs somehow different than the effects of bipolar on the brain?



Prohibited ownership includes: Who has been adjudicated as a mental defective or has been committed to any mental institution;

If they're on drugs to modify their behavior after there has been an intervention then there is a very high likelihood that they fall into the first category to some degree. But I'm no mental health professional.

If the drugs work, and they take them, then I imagine they don't but how they establish a clean bill of health I don't know and that concerns me.


“The cure for boredom is curiosity. There is no cure for curiosity."
#14049798 - 08/14/19 Re: Is There Ever a Right Time? [Re: Pugs]  
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Armednfree Offline
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Ohio
Originally Posted by Pugs
The folks taking meds are likely already prohibited from owing a firearm.


Not even close. When you say "Mentally Ill" you cast a very broad net. The APA defines mental illness as:

" Mental illnesses are health conditions involving changes in emotion, thinking or behavior (or a combination of these). Mental illnesses are associated with distress and/or problems functioning in social, work or family activities."

That is a much broader net than what we are talking about here. Someone who suffers from depression or anxiety and takes meds, that person would technically be called mentally ill. Someone with ADHD is in fact mentally ill. Someone who does not like to socialize much could be called mentally ill.

The people who are mentally ill and commit hostile acts against others are a tiny fraction of the total, yet we speak about taking firearms away from the total. That is no different than taking guns away from everyone because a tiny fraction will use them inappropriately. If you can do that to a subgroup then you will gain the argument to do it to the whole.

Last edited by Armednfree; 08/14/19.

The older I become the more I am convinced that the voice of honor in a man's heart is the voice of GOD.
#14049803 - 08/14/19 Re: Is There Ever a Right Time? [Re: Barkoff]  
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700LH Offline
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700LH  Offline
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Gem State
Quote
[/quote]
Originally Posted by Barkoff
Originally Posted by Pugs
[quote=jorgeI]It is perfectly legal (operative word) to confine someone if he is deemed clinically ill (nuts) and a danger to himself and society. We do it ALL the time. Look up Baker Act. F U C K Red Flag laws.


Correct, my BIL has worked in this evaluation field for the last 30 years in southern Rhode Island. He has been called out to do evaluations at peoples home's by the police and at the hospital. His take on the whole issue of new Red Flag laws is this is an already established capability and process of the state and they have a really good track record of getting it right and these people not hurting themselves or others if he is called to do an eval. The people who call are the police, or often, the people experiencing the issue themselves (he has "regulars".)

Most often it's an overnight in the hospital and for those with known mental conditions and taking meds, that their meds are right and they are taking them. For the others it's most often a referral to a health professional, often just a counselor and not a full-blown psychiatrist.

The additional ability to remove someone's rights to own/handle he says is an issue because the state is not really well equipped to assess when that right should be returned. The folks taking meds are likely already prohibited from owing a firearm.



“The folks taking meds are likely already prohibited from owing a firearm.”

Why? Are the effects of the drugs somehow different than the effects of bipolar on the brain?


Have you ever read the questions on the 4473 form when you buy a firearm?

Quote
Have you ever been adjudicated as a mental defective OR have you ever been committed to a mental institution?


“During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act.” ― George Orwell.

Member GOA,
Idaho 2nd Amendment Alliance,

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