Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Hunter's Campfire Red Flag and due Process?

You can get an ex parte protective order and get your firearms confiscated in Kansas tomorrow.

Your post is a good example of why we are losing the fight. We don’t understand the fight. There is ZERO chance of a federal red flag law. It doesn’t work that way. Every red flag law will be put in place by a state legislature.

You talked in some of your post as if we have avoided UBC and other measures since Sandy Hook. Far from it. Lots of states have very restrictive UBC, Red Flag laws, AND AWB bans more restrictive than anything ever proposed on the national level while people on this board and elsewhere stay focused on what the idiots in Congress are doing.

Well at least you've revealed on whose side you're on, Joe.

Yeah, whatever. You’re not a serious person.

Wow! Brilliant rejoinder.

Fine and dandy. Who is going to reimburse the gun owner for legal fees? The state is denying a right and forcing the owner to pony up to protect that right. I sure don't have funds to hire an attorney and am glad I no longer own guns.

It was a nice way of telling you that you’re a dumbass. I’m not telling you a damned thing that isn’t true. Yet, you want to say I’m a traitor and other stupid schit. Today, in every state in the country an ex parte protective order can be taken against a person and they WILL come out to get his guns. Yet you want to rail about due process and all that. I’m just telling you that the courts have settled the issue long ago. Sorry, if you can’t take the truth and would rather be a dumbass. Doesn’t mean that I’m in favor of it. Doesn’t mean I think it’s great. It just means that a process virtually identical to the red flag laws that are mostly proposed is already i widespread use. Arguing that it is unconstitutional and all that is a dead end. If you want to make an argument, make a political argument that guns are a third rail. That might work.

What are you doing in your state? Your state already has a red flag law and narrowly avoided an AWB. What are you doing there?

I’m just telling you that if you want to be taken seriously, make serious arguments. Get on the horn with your state legislatures and suggest things that could address due process concerns.

And finally, realize this. The red flag issue is a bit different. Nearly every single gun control proposal, no matter what they tell you, is completely pushed and promulgated by zealots who only wish to take away ALL your guns. Not so with Red Flag laws. Lots of people who are moderately pro gun or indifferent think that the idea of having a tool to temporarily take weapons away from someone who is mentally unbalanced is not a bad thing. When you argue with them, you will not be taken seriously if you are just “No compromise”. They will see you as the zealot and discount what you have to say.

Like I said, in some states, this stuff is coming no matter what. In some, it won’t come no matter what. But the point is, to be rational about it. Be prepared to make reasoned and persuasive arguments that support your position and to be constructive. You’re not.

I had an auction house pick up my entire collection of firearms today. I'm done playing ball. I'm taking up fishing, until they outlaw fishing rods.

Well, in other posts, I proposed that there be a bond required and that if the red flag is the result of an accusation that turns out to be false, attorney’s fees he assessed. That would take care of the [bleep] neighbor who just doesn’t like you and such.

I wouldn't do this part until it had been effectively challenged at least to the federal level.

One argument that might have a chance with a court is the fact that, since there is in reality no penalty for false affirmation in either EPO or RF applications, there is no due process.

The requirement of "Supported by oath or affirmation" is not met when there is no penalty for lying, hence no "support" for the oath.

I’m pretty sure that someone who made a false allegation would be open to a defamation suit. False imputation of a crime is slander or libel per se. That means that you don’t have to prove that you were even damaged.

That has some merit for sure, but a lot of people don't have the cash up front to hire the attorney. Defense attorneys don't do contingencies for obvious reasons. What do accuseds do, roll over to take it from behind?

You had better believe that states' attorneys will know this and use it as a screw to turn.

There is going to be abuse. That is why I proposed that a better way might be making it part of an involuntary commitment process. They’ll appoint an attorney for that. And from an equity standpoint, if not strictly constitutional standpoint, if we are going to make the argument that someone is too dangerous to own a gun, then we should make the argument that they need some mental help as well. And committment trials can get a jury as well.

Joe's an attorney, so maybe he'll give you a deal if you get caught up in the Red Flag laws he advocates.

You’ve really gone insane lately.

The point is, the framers made the due process requirement of a sworn oath necessary to support government intervention, search/arrest warrants being the ones in play at the time.

But that was BITD when false swearing/perjury were actually treated as a serious crime.

Now, they're not, and if there's no criminal penalty for false affirmation/oath, there's no due process as the Constitution requires, for a RF/EPO case.

The Framers wouldn't have considered the possibility of a civil lawsuit at a later time "supported by oath or affirmation".

Kind of depends on the jurisdiction. I’ve seen women get prosecuted for perjury for lying in protective order cases.

I hope you don't Red Flag me.

Yeah, but they will not wish to discourage people from reporting, so you will likely need to prove malice, which isn't easy.

The way the Colorado law is written it is a civil offense and they will perform a search order on a civil offense which is illegal. It will set a precedent for allowing search orders for such things.

It is more than just the red law being instituted and is very difficult to undue laws once they are established by whatever means...

This chit just keeps growing.