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The Ultimate Custom Subsistence Survival Drilling #13806411 05/09/19
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DannyLandrum Offline OP
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This is one of 3 lifetime-build / bucket list guns I want to have custom made, but of the three, the one least likely that I'll actually follow through on. So essentially a (three-) pipe dream if you will. But we'll see. The other two are a turnbolt and an AR15 SBR.

The idea is to have THE single most versatile firearm in the world, for harvesting the most types of game, at nearly any range, while having a reasonable weight. I really cannot think of anything more versatile than this without exceeding 3 barrels (which makes it then too heavy) - but maybe I'm missing something. (Note that versatility here does not in any way include defensive uses; just game gathering).

All barrels are 22". Best balance of weight, follow through on wingshooting, and internal ballistics.

1. Lone bottom barrel is 12 ga 3.5 mag smoothbore with interchangeable chokes, so that it can shoot birdshot, buckshot, or slugs. With the right hardcast slugs, this will take the largest game on earth at close range with a good brainer.

2. Top right barrel is the basic big game long-range hunter, chambered in .280 Rem AI (although 7mm RSAUM or 7mm WSM would be good alternatives; any number of choices would be ok; just somewhere in this general class). I like .280 AI as it will shoot .280 or .280 AI as is. .30-'06 AI would be a very good choice as well. You could make a pretty good argument for things like .35 Whelen, 9.3x62, or 9.3x74 as well. But my working theory is that if .280 can't handle it, get closer and use a Brenneke slug and brain shot.

3. The top left barrel is the most complicated, versatile, and useful by far for real world protein collection. Chambered in .223 Wylde, 1 in 8 twist.
--The first 17" of the barrel is rifled, for shooting: (a) .223 rem & 5.56x45, from 50 grainers up to 85 grainers cup and core or up to about 70 grainers monometal, (b) with MCA style chamber adapter (such as I use in my 9-twist CZ 527 .223), ability to shoot .22 long rifle standard ammo AND importantly, Aguila SSS 60 grainers, and (c) with 2nd MCA adapter, also shoot .22 mag standard ammo.
--The last 5" of the barrel are widened out to around .32 caliber with "straight rifling" to unspin shot loads, so that you will have nice patterns from (d) .22lr shotshells, with the chamber adapter, and (e) .22 mag shotshells with that adapter.

After many years of hunting, if there's one thing I've learned, it's that tweetie birds are by far the easiest meat to get close enough to, to harvest very quickly (within 5-10 minutes of sitting still typically), and pretty much as often as you want; however, a .410 bore or larger won't leave any meat left on the chickadees; hence the critical importance of this weird 3rd barrel setup and the MCA adapter for the rimfires.

For this same reason, something like the Marlin .22 mag "garden gun" or similar is probably the best single-barrel meat-getter you could use, with the .22 mag shotshells (and with regular ammo in the smooth bore, accurate *enough* for close range brainers on larger game).

Of course, a hollow stock compartment for the two MCA adapters and choke tubes.

Just thinking out loud.

Last edited by DannyLandrum; 05/09/19.
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Re: The Ultimate Custom Subsistence Survival Drilling [Re: DannyLandrum] #13807064 05/09/19
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I have a late 1950's vintage Heym combination gun in 16 over 8x57JSR that is pretty handy.

It would be more practical in 12 over 30-06, but I don't think that it was an option when my Father bought this gun.

The Miroku-made Winchester 101 Grand European combination guns would have been a viable choice if the rifle barrel could be regulated.

I wonder why nobody is making an economy grade version of the Savage 24? Good used examples are regularly selling for five or six times what they sold for new.

Re: The Ultimate Custom Subsistence Survival Drilling [Re: DannyLandrum] #13807519 05/09/19
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erich Offline
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I really sounds like your way over thinking this. A nice vierling would do the trick. 16ga/16ga/7x65R/22LR or Hornet. Flip up open sight for the 22LR and a nice1-4x20mm scope in claw mounts for the 7x65R. I guess someone is ahead of you by nearly a hundred years. You can also get an adjustable rimfire insert for one of the shotgun barrels on a regular drilling.

Then there is always a Bockdrilling if a single shotgun barrel is sufficient..

When folks talk about combo guns they think big 12ga which is far off track, really a 2 3/4" 16ga will accomplish everything you need in a shotgun. If the game is too far away to kill with a 2 3/4" 16ga you have the rifle just a trigger or selector away.

I regularly hunt coyotes with a 2 1/2" 16ga loaded with 1 oz. NP BB's, kills them dead under 40 yards over that I switch to the rifle barrel.

[Linked Image]

What you've described sounds like a 12 pound behemoth that would handle like a chunk of scrap iron. With 16ga barrels you can have the most versatile drilling that with the scope off handles like a fine bird gun.

This is just a 2 3/4" 12ga/5.6x50R combo gun, 1 1/4 oz. NP BB's work perfect for coyotes.

[Linked Image]

Last edited by erich; 05/09/19.

After the first shot the rest are just noise.
Re: The Ultimate Custom Subsistence Survival Drilling [Re: DannyLandrum] #13807730 05/09/19
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DannyLandrum Offline OP
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OK. Allow me to repeat: "The idea is to have THE single most versatile firearm in the world".

You're way underthinking how to reach my goal. But 16 ga>12 ga might be a reasonable option.

A rimfire adapter in a shotgun barrel is useless. Will not be accurate. At all.

And you completely ignored THE most important part - how to easily harvest the most common easily-obtainable meat in the woods - tweety birds - without shredding them. As explained. This *requires*, above all else, the ability to shoot .22lr and/or .22 mag shotshells. Without a donut hole. This is NOT a "hunting gun" (as explained). This is an ultimate drilling for the sole purpose of subsistence survival (meaning game getting with the least amount of ammo weight-to-game-harvested humanly possible). 2 barrels of shotgun are certainly not needed (total dead weight), because for the purpose of this gun, you'll be pot-shooting the waterfowl not wingshooting 90% of the time.

Perhaps a case could be made for going to 2 barrels by eliminating the .280, and relying on the idea that "if the 80 grain .223 with head shot doesn't do the trick, time to step up to the slug". Then you'd certainly have a sleeker, better handling gun (not a drilling obviously).

Think Dick Proenneke, folks. Thanks for the input.

Yes, I too would love to see more combo gun options. the remington-branded Baikals had some interesting chamberings but was rough and is now not imported. Last time Savage did the 24, it was cheap plastic stock and limited to .22lr / .410, IIRC. Also discontinued.

Last edited by DannyLandrum; 05/09/19.
Re: The Ultimate Custom Subsistence Survival Drilling [Re: DannyLandrum] #13808299 05/10/19
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I think that a survival gun should be chambered for common ammo, ergo my 12 gauge and 30-06 preference in North America. I'd prefer 16 gauge as it would contribute to a smaller/lighter package, but 16 gauge ammo is much harder to find anywhere in the U.S. that I've traveled to than 12, 20, or even .410. Every drilling that I've handled has been less handy than a comparable O/U combination gun. A single firearm with 3 or 4 barrels strikes me as a compromise that, like a SAK, is a nice concept but not very practical even when the design is well executed. If you think that you need to shoot .22 MAG snake shot, a chamber insert for the rifle barrel would probably work.

IIRC, a lot of survivalist recommend using mouse/rat traps like the Victor Metal-Pedal style to collect small rodents for meat.

IIRC, Dick Proenneke's primary firearms were a 357 MAG handgun, a 30-06 rifle, and a 12 gauge shotgun.

Since everybody has had different experiences, you're going to get a lot of different opinions/perspectives, few of which are likely to be in complete harmony with your's.

BTW, www.mcace.com appears to be gone, so MCA chamber adapters and inserts are no longer available unless somebody else has taken over that market niche from Ace Dube in Anchorage..

Alpha

Re: The Ultimate Custom Subsistence Survival Drilling [Re: DannyLandrum] #13808341 05/10/19
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erich Offline
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Guns are way over rated for a survival weapon. A roll or two of snare wire, the ability to make good dead falls and a length of gill net will keep you in protein without announcing to the world you have food.


After the first shot the rest are just noise.
Re: The Ultimate Custom Subsistence Survival Drilling [Re: erich] #13809495 05/10/19
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northcountry Offline
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Originally Posted by erich
Guns are way over rated for a survival weapon. A roll or two of snare wire, the ability to make good dead falls and a length of gill net will keep you in protein without announcing to the world you have food.


Amen Brother. The snares are working 24 hours a day; the firearms are only working when you are. Ask me how I know, have been there & done that! Cheers NC


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Re: The Ultimate Custom Subsistence Survival Drilling [Re: erich] #13809808 05/10/19
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Originally Posted by erich
Guns are way over rated for a survival weapon. A roll or two of snare wire, the ability to make good dead falls and a length of gill net will keep you in protein without announcing to the world you have food.


Yep. Makes me laugh when I see guys with tens of thousands of rounds of ammo stating that they have them to get food. In a SHTF scenario I don't want people to know where I am. Snares in deer trails are very quiet, effective and simple.

Re: The Ultimate Custom Subsistence Survival Drilling [Re: DannyLandrum] #13809979 05/10/19
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Originally Posted by DannyLandrum
OK. Allow me to repeat: "The idea is to have THE single most versatile firearm in the world".

You're way underthinking how to reach my goal. But 16 ga>12 ga might be a reasonable option.

A rimfire adapter in a shotgun barrel is useless. Will not be accurate. At all.



Actually, I agree with Erich. I don't think your configuration is optimal. As well as the issues erich outlined I don't think that your .22 Wyld part twist, part straight rifled barrel is practical, and you seem to be providing for carrying rather a lot of gear and different ammunition to support this setup.

Rimfire adapters for shotguns aren't confined to the MCA type. The Germans and others have for many years been making adapters for shooting rifle calibres accurately from shotgun barrels. They can also be adjusted (unlike your simple MCA-type) to ensure that the insert barrel shoots to the sights. Google "einstecklauf" - that is what they are called, and they are available in shorter (8" - 10") and full length versions - the former are much handier.

You could still use an MCA-type adapter to shoot .22 shot in a shotgun barrel though, and not need to have your rather overcomplicated .22 Wyld solution.

Personally I would choose a drilling in 16/16 over something rimmed. My own drilling is 16/16/7x57R, but you could also have 7x65R or something else if you wanted it. Yes, 16 ga ammunition is rather less widely-available than 12, but 16 ga drillings tend to be slimmer and can be lighter - mine's 6 lb bare and handles like a good double shotgun - and a 16 ga does the job for me on anything from pigeons to pigs. In any case the very concept of "survival" presupposes that you will have a stock of ammo and won't be in a position to be going to the shops to buy it.

A rimmed case for the rifle makes for a simpler extractor and a case which drops free from the chamber when you are in a hurry. I like the 7x57R, and have shot everything from rabbits - headshots neatly decapitate them, without destroying the edible part - to pigs and deer with it. If the SHTF I could also drop larger game or stray livestock with it too.

If I was inclined to try shooting "tweety birds", whatever they are, I could get a chamber adapter and use "ratshot" loads. If I wanted to use .22LR to pot small game I could insert an einstecklauf in the right barrel, adjusted to line up with the sights. In practice though I just keep it simple: some rounds of 7x57R and some 16 ga in a couple of different loads - usually some size 6 for birds and rabbits and some buckshot for pigs. I could easily pocket a couple of slugs too. For roughly the same amount of work as it would take to rustle up a feed of small birds I could drop a deer, goat or pig and have meat for the week, if I could keep it, and if I was worried about being discreet I would, as others have suggested, use a snare or trap or catch a fish.

Re: The Ultimate Custom Subsistence Survival Drilling [Re: DannyLandrum] #13810825 05/11/19
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We all have dream guns! You need to check out Blaser drillings. They don't have the 22 Wylde, but they have a lot of choices.
Drillings can be pretty handy and versatile. My Saurer is 16x16x7x57R, with a full length 5.6x50r insert and a 22 WRM insert. With the exception of my muzzleloader, it gets more field time than all the rest of my guns, including my other drilling and my BBF.
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Re: The Ultimate Custom Subsistence Survival Drilling [Re: DannyLandrum] #14062040 08/19/19
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I think the location where you’re trying to survive has a lot to do with the optimum setup. The Arizona desert will have different menu items than getting stranded in Alaska.

Re: The Ultimate Custom Subsistence Survival Drilling [Re: DannyLandrum] #14066827 08/21/19
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Among the facets of "subsistence/survival" guns is ease of maintenance. Having owned two drililinge - Sauer 3000 De Luxe as blitz (trigger plate) action 12/12/30-06, and pre-World War II blitz action Prussian Sauer 16/16/8x57 mm JRS, I gotta tell yuh that a drilling is a massive error in judgment - despite blitz actions being significantly simpler and more "easily" maintained than box lock or sidelock mechanisms.

Having typed that, if you insist on having your gun be a combination gun, the best, most durable, easiest to clean and maintain combination gun I have experienced is the Brno ZH 200/300 series over/unders. These two series are identical except for cosmetics. There are some ridiculous number of barrel sets available, all of which interchange without fitting (something more than 20). The basis mechanism disassembles much like a modern pump shotgun; drive out one pin and the lock work drops out. Both unusual double triggers and double set triggers are available. All parts except springs and wood are machined from bar stock and are interchangeable with replacement parts without fitting. No ejectors or cocking rods to wear or break. While this was manufactured in communist Czechoslovakia and has been out of production for decades (I wish it would re-enter production!!), there were a bazillion made. Beware of the Brno ZH 100 series. It is not what I recommend.

I have owned two, one I think was ZH 280. I cannot remember what ZH3xx was except that barrels I had were 7x57 mm R and 16 gauge . . . or was it 12 gauge??

I may have additional information or documents.

Hope this helps.


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Re: The Ultimate Custom Subsistence Survival Drilling [Re: DannyLandrum] #14075906 08/25/19
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I’ll keep it simple and take a TC Encore with a shotgun and rifle barrel.

Re: The Ultimate Custom Subsistence Survival Drilling [Re: DannyLandrum] #14090499 08/31/19
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[
Originally Posted by DannyLandrum
OK. Allow me to repeat: "The idea is to have THE single most versatile firearm in the world".

You're way underthinking how to reach my goal. But 16 ga>12 ga might be a reasonable option.

A rimfire adapter in a shotgun barrel is useless. Will not be accurate. At all.

.


Seems to me you're way overthinking it. With an einstecklauf any number of drillings will meet the need.

"A rimfire adapter in a shotgun barrel is useless. Will not be accurate. At all."

^ That is so much caca. If I could I'd introduce you to a few hundred head shot squirrels who, if they could, would beg to differ with you.


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