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Originally Posted by 1minute
Yes. Over time, one eventually witnesses all. Years back as we were preseason zeroing, we met a gentleman insisting we were doing it all wrong. One must zero firing from an off hand standing position.


There's actually a smidgen of truth to that. I noticed a lot when I was an avid smallbore silhouette shooter that I was off by a little with my offhand practice shooting versus benchrest sight-in. Differences between rest versus hand hold don'tcha know. (That's not to say I don't sight in off the bench and call it good today.)


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When I was younger there was a difference between my offhand zero and my sitting rapid fire zero.
(Both 200 yards)
Hint, slingtension.


I like to do my hunting BEFORE I pull the trigger!
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Originally Posted by Mule Deer
Dan,

In 2011 I killed a Cape buffalo in Tanzania that had a missing "spinous process" at the top of the shoulder area, with round scars on either side, indicating somebody had shot high and didn't QUITE miss. I always wondered what happened after that high shot, since those often put big game down--but don't keep them there!



That could have led to some excitement!

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Originally Posted by gnoahhh
Originally Posted by 1minute
Yes. Over time, one eventually witnesses all. Years back as we were preseason zeroing, we met a gentleman insisting we were doing it all wrong. One must zero firing from an off hand standing position.


There's actually a smidgen of truth to that. I noticed a lot when I was an avid smallbore silhouette shooter that I was off by a little with my offhand practice shooting versus benchrest sight-in. Differences between rest versus hand hold don'tcha know.


I've found the same thing. I zero from a rested position, but with the rifle held in both hands, and the back of my left hand on the rest, for the reason that that gives me a POI best representative of what I'll get for shots in the field. POI from resting directly on the bags front and rear tends to be different.

Wherever possible I take shots in the field from a similar hold: more often than not kneeling supported, or less often from lying supported or some other supported position, using some sort of improvised rest such as a post, stump, tree, or daypack. Offhand is a little different for POI, but I don't take the longer shots from that position - mostly quick snap shots, often at running animals - and so the difference isn't enough to matter.

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John, I am spending the morning doing some reading and have been catching up on some of these threads. In the above anecdotes, and I am sure on countless other occasions, you have encountered shooters taking a torturous path to getting their guns sighted in. You are ever the polite professor here on the forum, often taking time to share your knowledge and experience and correcting errant thinking. In the above instances, you just let the shooters go on doing their thing rather than nurturing them along. Is that because your experience tells you that it is hopeless to try to do anything about it?

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I generally do NOT suggest anything to shooters at the range, unless they specifically ask. In general, they're already convinced they're doing things correctly--and even if they have some doubts, resent other people making suggestions.


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Best practices are to keep head down and don't even make eye contact.

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The last time I recommended ANYTHING to a shooter at the range was to ask him "hey! do you really wanna walk out there while the others are shooting?"


It's you and the bullet, and all the rest is secondary.
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Yeah, in case of emergency I have made some pretty strident suggestions--such as when some high-school age boy was loading his rifle with the barrel point right down the line of benches, and his father paid no attention.

But technical advice, no, not unless asked.


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Originally Posted by Mule Deer
Yeah, in case of emergency I have made some pretty strident suggestions--such as when some high-school age boy was loading his rifle with the barrel point right down the line of benches, and his father paid no attention.

But technical advice, no, not unless asked.


Yeah, I can vividly recall Gunnery Sergeant Joe Monteleone telling one my class mates, "If you don't keep the barrel of that rifle pointing down range at all times; I will sick it up your ass so your can remember where it is pointed." Sarge had a way of getting points across !

CJ

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I was tempted to do the same!


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Originally Posted by Mule Deer
Dan,

In 2011 I killed a Cape buffalo in Tanzania that had a missing "spinous process" at the top of the shoulder area, with round scars on either side, indicating somebody had shot high and didn't QUITE miss. I always wondered what happened after that high shot, since those often put big game down--but don't keep them there!

John, I agree about those "near spine" shots. I once witnessed a Hunter, I didn't know (during early muzzleloading season, Nat. Forest area) drop a decent buck. He didn't reload, but rushed down to the buck. About the time he got to the buck he begin to stir & tried to get up. The Shooter grabbed the Buck by the horns & tried to hold him down. I hurried down & when I got there, the Buck was getting stronger & the hunter was getting winded. I at first offered to cut the Bucks throat, The Hunter readily agreed, but I feared the Buck would go NUTS when I made a cut, so by then the Buck was getting the upper hand & was in position to gore the hunter (the Buck was standing & the hunter was on his back). I shot the buck (probably 175 #'s) in the chest . That settled the matter !!


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Originally Posted by Mule Deer
I generally do NOT suggest anything to shooters at the range, unless they specifically ask. In general, they're already convinced they're doing things correctly--and even if they have some doubts, resent other people making suggestions.


But nine times out of ten those that are doing the "sighting in" would like some advice instead of being snickered at behind their backs. Rather than watch them waste and or run out of ammo I would think a "worldly gentleman" would be more than willing to offer or at least ask "Hey buddy, you having problems with your rifle?" or some other polite question to break the ice like "Hey buddy, that sure is an interesting 444 ought 40 you have there, mind if I have a look and/or shoot it? I've never shot one before." and in the end help a guy out that spent a good amount of his hard earned money on what might possibility be the hunt of a lifetime with his less than your standards rifle and scope setup. Who knows, you both might walk away with a better appreciation for the other's situation.

My bench is also "free for friends" and 99% of the time I'm invited to come and spot so I bring my "Bob-sled" and sandbags as well as a rifle (or three) which almost always turns into a " Hey, want to shoot mine? " situation. Also by not shooting your best and letting "Buddy" shoot yours and by maybe besting your group builds their confidence.

Some recent shooters at my bench come to mind:

[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]

This next young man also worked up his own load using my press and sighted in his rifle (see target) and shot a pretty darn good group after zeroing!!

[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]

[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]

A non reactive target set up at a shooter/hunter's maximum distance will also boost confidence in their rifle, load and ability. Here's that same young shooter/hunter/reloader's 300 yard, three shot target. Yes, there was a slight crosswind.

[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]

He later harvested a nice fat muley doe with that load with one shot.

Anyways, I hate to see folks get a bad rub just because their stuff isn't what others think it should be.

RJ


Last edited by recoiljunky; 12/20/20.

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Read that article by Jack O'Connor many years ago sighting in at 25 yds dead center and being 3'high at 100....have being doing it for 40 years like that and about every caliber you pick up will be like that .Look at JBM Ballistics and zero your given gun at 25 yds and look at where it will be at 100.....about every time it will be 3" high at 100. I was looking at this few days ago with a 308 shooting a 130 grain TTSX at about 3165 fps and at 100 it was 3.1" high. What is happening is dead center at 25 bullet starts to rise, and at 50 yds will be like 1/2" inch high and still rising at 100. I always like a 3" high at 100 so that at 300 yds you do not have to hold high....will only be 1 to 3 inches low for most calibers. Even at 200 yards bullet still rising.


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recoiljunky,

"But nine times out of ten those that are doing the 'sighting in' would like some advice instead of being snickered at behind their backs."

That has NOT been my experience at public ranges. While some do, most others can get pretty huffy even at a polite inquiry. (But I don't snicker at them. I just let them do their thing, and I do mine.)

A private range is a different deal. Helped out quite a few at different private ranges, including the one I had for 8 years, and the one mentioned belonging to a good friend.

BUT in the instance described, the guy and his son were complete strangers to me--and when I told my friend about it later, they were to him as well.

Turned out one of his other friends (a guy I also knew who worked part-time for the county sheriff's department) had announced to the rest of the guys in the department that the range was open to anybody. Whereupon a steady stream of people my friend did NOT know started using his range. Which resulted in things like fenceposts being shot to pieces, and a few other incidents.

My friend was VERY interested to hear about this (especially the fencepost) when I phoned him that evening, and informed his "generous" buddy informed that the range was NOT open to everybody,. My friend put a couple of steel fenceposts in the middle of the turnoff to the range, with a sign that said, "Shooting with permission only," and gave his phone number. After that I was the ONLY person allowed to use the range without calling and asking.


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I grew up on the ranch where my dad taught his kids to shoot off-hand out to 100 yds, kneeling out to 200 yds, sitting out to 300 yds, and prone out to 400 yds, and all at an 8-inch bull. Using a Garand.

I'd never see a bench, a table, or whatever for shooting until hunting season came when my dad would "fill in the corners" of income by letting hunters come on to the property. Then the bench and some sort of stool would get pulled out to let the hunters check their zero at 100 yards.

I remember for a number of seasons "old joe" would come out to the ranch to have a try at Mulies. All I remember about Joe was something about he having cornered the market in fresh ravioli in the big city and each season he'd show up in a new pickup and carrying a new rifle in some loudenboomer cartridge, usually a Weatherby. This one particular season old joe must have brought a particularly nasty recoiling rifle as you'd see him pulling away from the rifle before the bullet launched. Naturally, he completely missed the entire target at 100 yards, and then missed the entire target again when we moved it up to 50 yards. At that my dad declared the rifle 'broken' and gave him one of the ranch rifles in '06 to use and told me to take joe out and to bring him back alive at the end of the day. He also told me to take a rifle and finish off whatever joe manages to hit as well.

Now I'm not saying this is true 'cause my dad didn't admit to it, but I understood "old joe" was urged to give the Q ranch down the road a ways a try as the Mulies were supposedly bigger and fatter over there.

Pud


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Originally Posted by Mule Deer
recoiljunky,

"But nine times out of ten those that are doing the 'sighting in' would like some advice instead of being snickered at behind their backs."

That has NOT been my experience at public ranges. While some do, most others can get pretty huffy even at a polite inquiry. (But I don't snicker at them. I just let them do their thing, and I do mine.)

A private range is a different deal. Helped out quite a few at different private ranges, including the one I had for 8 years, and the one mentioned belonging to a good friend.

BUT in the instance described, the guy and his son were complete strangers to me--and when I told my friend about it later, they were to him as well.

Turned out one of his other friends (a guy I also knew who worked part-time for the county sheriff's department) had announced to the rest of the guys in the department that the range was open to anybody. Whereupon a steady stream of people my friend did NOT know started using his range. Which resulted in things like fenceposts being shot to pieces, and a few other incidents.

My friend was VERY interested to hear about this (especially the fencepost) when I phoned him that evening, and informed his "generous" buddy informed that the range was NOT open to everybody,. My friend put a couple of steel fenceposts in the middle of the turnoff to the range, with a sign that said, "Shooting with permission only," and gave his phone number. After that I was the ONLY person allowed to use the range without calling and asking.



Well maybe around Bozeman a public range is loaded with [bleep], but where I come from on the other side of the Madison and Gravelly ranges and here in NW Colorado, the public range users are pretty ok especially if you show interest in what they're shooting.

RJ

Last edited by recoiljunky; 12/20/20.

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Originally Posted by Puddle
The last time I recommended ANYTHING to a shooter at the range was to ask him "hey! do you really wanna walk out there while the others are shooting?"


This afternoon I had to explain to someone that you don't set foot forward of the line until everyone there has acknowledged that the range is cold and hands are off the firearms. I didn't use foul language, and hopefully not too harsh of a tone, but there's no doubt about if I was load and clear.

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I grew up in Bozeman, and it was different then--around 12,000 people-, instead of a "metropolitan area" about 10 times as large. Am very familiar with Alder, since my father and his brother founded and ran the Virginia City Players for many years. I worked for the theater during summer as teenager, mostly doing grunt work, partly because I could walk outside of town in 2 minutes and start hunting with my .22.

Am now 70 miles away from Bozeman. Moved here 30 years ago when it was still really rural, and helped establish the local range. Even though the range is between Bozeman and Helena, it gets a LOT of use due to the area growing so much in recent years.. In fact what used to be just a "club" range now regularly hosts shoots that have people coming from several surrounding states. It was expanded to 1000+ yards a few years ago, with around 20 concrete benches.

Am also somewhat familiar with your area of Colorado. Hunted northwest of Craig for mule deer with a friend close to 20 years ago, and got an ancient, heavy-antlered 3x3, and my partner got a very good typical 4x4. Great country, and am glad to hear it's still pretty rural. Dunno what we're gonna do with the recent vast "Californication" of this part of Montana. Thought we were too far from the Bozone to get invaded, but might have to sell out and head farther east.





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I really enjoyed these posts.
All the types of things I can appreciate.
I have to say I don't care to go to our public range if I expect others, luckily I can shoot at home and tend to do the finicky stuff at home...at home , I am the only one allowed to shoot( and kill) my chrono, the only one that uses my spotting scope, fatwrench etc.
At the public range, it can be entertaining and dangerous but so is a first ride on a colt.
Merry Christmas, folks

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