Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Ask The Gunwriters The "Other" Monos

Miles,

I have so far restrained myself somewhat when reading your posts, but I have far more experience with various monolithics at different ranges and velocities than you do--at least from what I recall from your posts, which indicate you usually shoot whitetails at shorter ranges.

I can categorically state, from plenty of actual experience with various bullets at ranges from close up to 500+ yards, that you are absolutely FOS about how monolithic damage innards compared to bullets that lose more weight. In fact I known quite a few professional hunters (both guides and cullers) who have been astonished at the INTERIOR damage done by Bergers, and similar bullets. They have seen FAR more animals killed than you have, with your "vast" personal experience. As in thousands.

Of course, you will respond with something else from your limited experience, and also something about the dangers of lead-core bullets. Go ahead.

I agree with MILES58. I have been a 264 shooter since I purchased my first 260 rem back in 2000. Over the course of those 19 seasons I have harvested without exaggeration over 200 whitetails. It got to the point where I played with different bullets in an attempt to discover the better combo. 120 NBT, 125 NPT, 140 NAB, 140 SST, 130 NAB, 140 AMAX and 120TSX. In all that the 2 standouts for dropping things IME is the 120TSX and the 140 AMAX. The 140 AMAX does a lot of damage. The 120 TSX dropped 11 in row at one point and still does so with regularity. With the 125 NPT things ran the furthest followed by the 140 NAB when things were hit with it on occasion they acted like they weren't hit at all. The 120's just proved to be better IME. The 120 NBT was good but they ran not far but they still ran.

After probably 60 or 70 harvested in the last 5 years of 120 TSX max load of H4350 I would say 40 dropped all but 1 of the rest ran maybe 20 yards or less. 1 I inadvertently hit in the neck and it had a hole in the neck the size of a quarter dropped but was still alive when I got to it. I remember looking at my buds and asking them if they had ever seen a deer try to go anywhere with a hole like that in its neck. You could literally look through it. Every time I've shot one its pretty much the same all kinds of jello lungs completely deflated hearts destroyed all kinds of trauma. I've never shot any of the old C&C bullets and I am sure they would work successfully but why mess with what works but again they're probably going to run. I have been trying to get the 100 TTSX to shoot as accurate if I can find a load that works I will continue the experiment.

But until that pans I will continue to shoot em behind the shoulder and watch what happens

The deer here in VA are probably a little smaller than NY but not much.

Good luck and shoot straight y'all

Wow! 200 animals!

You have never shot any of the "old C&C's."

You have shot 60-70 with the TSX. Would love to hear whether you actually kept track of the numbers, or it's a guesstimate.

Would also be interested in whether you tracked the bullet's path closely enough to determine if it touched the spinal column--or otherwise hit substantial bone. Have seen some astoundingly quick drops with monos that ticked the spinal column, but otherwise looked like pure long shots.

My database involves a lot more than 200 animals--and they were actually each recorded, instead of guessed, as in 60-70.

Well I feel compelled to add to this matter, I haven't been monitoring anybodies posts and I can't say the red soup statement has been my experience. But they drop these whitetails here. I am going to try the 6.5 x 284 with 130 bergers this year if I get a chance. I have found an extremely accurate load with them in my cooper excalibur. I am quite certain the berger VLD will be as traumatic as as any AMAX especially at 6.5x284 velocities. I've never had great luck shooting 130's in my 260's. It will be after winter before I can post any results and probably wont have much to say until plenty have been harvested.

Again good luck and shoot straight y'all

Not out of my 260 and I very seldom hit spines John and all are close range inside 200 yards. I am definitely in the guesstimate range but am being conservative with my numbers as I hunt on damage permits here in Northern VA. I harvest an average of 15 or so per year over 20 last year. I don't count how many I shoot because my superstitious nature tells me that when I start counting them I stop seeing them. Most average about 80 pounds. I am not a gun writer sir and I don't have a data base and I am not going to start one. I've never been to Africa never been to many of the vast number of locations and continents you have been to. Only speaking about whitetails and my experience here in VA with the 120 TSX in my 260 rem CDL SF Limited and my experience with it is extensive.

Again good luck and shoot straight y'all

skottishkat,

Thanks very much for the details.

Will also comment that my wife and I use a LOT of Barnes bullets--though not because we believe they kill quicker. Instead we like them (and other monolithics) because they ruin less meat--which is more important to us in most of our personal big game hunting than other factors.

I am not running down the performance of monos. But according to my extensive records, they do NOT kill quicker than bullets which lose more weight, and there are indeed physical reasons for that.

I was also pointing out that most hunters also do NOT really analyze why a bullet drops an animal "right there."

Thank you Woods

MD I like it when you have an edge on. You exhibit even more "truthiness". Keep up the good work.

And from what I see the VAST majority of hunters will still say “DRT” even if the animal moves a bit, or just stands there until it falls over. DRT means (to me and everyone I know) the butt hits the ground before the chin does. It is instantaneous. I.E.- CNS.


I am well into four digits on big game, and it is interesting that people will say “monos destroy less meat” and “monos kill fast” at the same time. You can not have one without the other. Too often people draw conclusions with small sample sizes, and those that have killed 50-60 animals with the same bullet don’t generally perform even rudimentary exams on wound channels. There is a difference between someone that has killed “one deer 50 times”, and someone that has “killed 50 deer”.

I shoot light for caliber monos whenever possible. Run any expanding bullet through the lungs on a deer and you can expect red soup lungs when you start them at above 3200 FPS and that tends to be what I see. I have never even shot a deer with a mono heavier than 150. Secondly I have never stated or insinuated that monos kill faster than cop and core bullets. But I do not believe that they have killed less quickly than cup and core either. A little over 100 deer with monos is good statistical numbers and can be very predictive. Shooting another thousand beyond that will not contribute greatly to the pattern established by that first hundred. As for Bergers I have never used them and never intend to because I have no need to mess up more venison than necessary. I have an accurate 300 WM that is perfectly capable of doing such should I ever feel the need. Lastly, I respond to posts about monos because I use them and have done so almost exclusively since we got the XLCs Prior to that I used mostly Core-Lokt and some silver tips with a few federals thrown in. I have personally examined the holes in almost every single deer killed with the ammo I loaded and butchered many of them. I suppose my average range with a rifle has been just over 100 yards which may short range for western states but it is also further than most here in Minnesota.

I don't know where you get the idea that that many deer with monos is not a significant number. Probably from the the same mistake bucket that the assumption that I claimed they were no different than cup and core bullets or that I have "limited" experience. I have reloaded and shot deer with those reloads from the beginning. I have tested those reloads in a number of ways from the beginning. I think you will look long and hard to find someone averaging 4 deer/year in Minnesota but for a year in which my eyesight almost prevented me from shooting even one in the last twenty years.

Now, if you believe that lung shots that make red soup out of them are different I am willing to listen, but from what I have observed I start from the position that no lungs is no lungs. Likewise when you blow the great vessels up or destroy the heart. I have killed deer with a bow where the heart was loose in the chest. I have run very large cut broad heads through deer lungs and found the results of both quite comparable to what happens when you do the same with a rifle. A properly placed large cut broad head will put Bambi down pretty consistently in the same 50-60 yards a rifle will with the same shot. That make a decent argument that wrecked lungs is wrecked lungs and that beyond that you get into more shock effect that can also come with much larger than necessary destruction like a 300 WM with a 130 at 3600 FPS.

Wow! Four deer a year!

As mentioned already, I have found that the defintion of "red soup" varies considerably. If you have not seen the results from a variety of other bullets (and you admittedly haven't) then you have no clue.

I stated in a previous post that a LOT of people of who've used a wide variety of conventional bullets( including monos) have been astonished by the lung damage from Bergers. They also do NOT "mess up more venison" than monos, if you understand how they expand and use them accordingly. But obviously since you have never use them, how can you sate so firmly they ruin a lot of meat?

I have also seen the damage from "large cut broadheads" in a bunch of animals from pronghorn to elk, and your claim that it's similar to the damage from SOME expanding high-velocity rifle bullets is laughable.

Again: You have no idea about what you are talking about, due to your limited experience.

The GS-HV.
http://www.gscustomusa.com/products.html

its been awhile.
But I have used them.
https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/3584811/1

dave

If you want to see red lung soup try a 100 grain ballistic tip out of a 257 Weatherby

I have used Barnes since they first came out with X bullets. IME monos are different. They typically have a smaller frontal area and penetrate more. If you want DRT as in the animal doesn't move more than it's length, you need to shoot CNS. You can drive them fast but be prepared for more meat damage with less than ideal shot placement. I personally use neck shots on undisturbed game out to 100 yards or so. My experience is mostly in the west where shots can be well over 100 yards on deer which typically are not over 125lb but includes other game on other continents.YMMV

Yikes! 200 deer are more than all my hunting buddies have killed combined. (How’s that for specific numbers) I have had pretty good luck with one hit kills on 200 + pound mule deer (I don’t shoot does or forkies) and elk using Barnes TSX / TTSX and Trophy Bonded Bear Claw bullets. Most have not taken more than a few steps. The farthest I had one bound away was about 15 yards. Before those bullets, I used Core Lokts and Speer Grand Slams out of my only rifle back then, a .308 Win. I had pretty good results back then with no lost animals and don’t recall any episodes of tracking more than a few yards. I’ll never get to Africa and have found my .30-06, .35 Whelen, 7mm Weatherby, and .300 Weatherby perfectly adequate for anything north of the Rio Grande. Happy Trails

I've killed a few critters with Barnes TSX and TTSX bullets because I love how accurately they shot in several of my rifles. But I have to admit they -- with the exception of the .25 caliber 80 grain TTSX that I used in a 23" 25-35 -- are not my favored choice for the moderate-capacity cartridges I use. I prefer the Ballistic Tips and Accubonds instead. As to the "other" monos, I've found that both Hornady GMX and Nosler E-Tip performed similarly to comparable Barnes products in test medium, though the final expanded diameter of each is generally just a tad less than with the Barnes projectiles. I have not taken any game with the E-tip of GMX. I had intended to, but my health just never permitted that.

Anyway, the two Barnes bullets specifically designed for the Blackout/Whisper line are another story altogether. The 110 and 120 grain TAC-TX AAC projectiles afford true double-diameter soft tissue expansion down to 1800 fps and open nicely all the way down to 1500 fps. Tissue destruction is much closer to that of a cup-and -core bullet than a mono. It's a minuscule number, but seven hogs taken with the 120 grain Barnes and the 30-30 (app. 2600 fps MV ) have all dropped in their tracks -- and none involved impacts to the CNS.

Would love to see Barnes offer a 120 grainer in both 6.5 and 7mm utilizing that same technology for those of us shooting the mild rounds.

The three fully-mushroomed bullets in the photo were the 120 grain Barnes TAC-TX AAC taken from game killed with a TC Contender rifle with both 23 and 24" barrels in 30-30 WCF.

The hog was a 120 grain Barnes victim as well. It's the bullet on the far left in the photo. It very nearly exited but was stopped by the 1.25" gristle plate on the side opposite of impact. The bullet entered tight behind the onside shoulder, centered the lungs, damaged some of the plumbing near the heart and penetrated the opposite shoulder before coming to rest. Lastly, I have to agree completely with JB's comment regarding "red soup" and ribcage/lung shots. I've pushed the 110 and 130 grain Barnes TSX/TTSX fairly hard in a .308 WCF and never experienced anything like that claim by one of the posters. You get damage and blooshotting, yes. But it's nothing like what a Berger will do -- and the lungs certainly are not fully liquified, either.

MD I am a straight up meat hunter myself and one of the things I like about the TSX is less damage. Most of what I know has been from my dad and some Norwegian Red Neck from Montana HAHA. I've read to many of his books and articles to count and have been sending them to dad for years. Most of the deer I harvest here have been between 70 and a 100 pounds and admit to being a Barnes fan because of the damage issue and in general the ease of finding good hunting loads. I have also followed the Barnes family business for years was sorry to see them sell to Remington despite being a fan of Big Green as well. There seems to be a trend toward what I call boutique or specialized factory ammo today and to much marketing big green and federal seem to be deeply into it and I think the Barnes acquisition was probably part of that.

Last year I started on my 3rd box of 120 TSX bullets so include about maybe 30 or 40 for site in over the course of 20 years all the rest have been used to harvest whitetails. Been a regular event for me to show up at my church with a 96 qt cooler full of venison and leave with it empty.

I am not suggesting that what I do works for whitetails everywhere in fact when I go after Canadian whitetails I use my 308 win and 130 TSX which IMO turns my 308 into a 270. I have harvested several 200+ pound whitetails with that combo and am more than pleased with performance as well. I too harvested my first whitetail in the late 70's with my dads 3030 with iron sites and old school cup and core bullets a nifty 160 pound 11 point with a basket rack that is still on my wall despite the fact that I have about 40 bigger ones in my shed.

I would have elaborated further yesterday but I had a glass of scotch and said I'll pick this up later.

Good luck with the upcoming season y'all

BobbyTomek - I like the idea of a softer Barnes. Which of the TAC-TXs are this design? Many of them look the same as the TSXs to me.. The LRX is a good compromise for the faster cartridges.

The only times I got the red soup effect with monos was from light X bullets driven fast that shattered shoulder bones and created a lot of secondary projectiles. It wasn't until I had to clean out an entire freezer full of blood shot shoulders that I decided not to do that anymore. A slow learner but in Africa the on shoulder shot was recommended as the staff did not mind bloodshot meat. My dogs loved me for the blood shot stew I made for them, they would start salivating any time they smelled venison after that.

The 110 and 120 TTSX black tip bullets are of the "softer" design meant for the 300 Blackout. They work absolutely great when run at high speeds also. IMO, they are the way that a mono should be designed.

The 150 grain TTSX loaded in factory Vortex ammo in 308 and 30-06 of recent vintage is a softer design also that will open up better at lower velocity; however, it does not seem to open widely like the black tip bullets do.

Have mentioned this before, but during a hunting-camp conversation with Randy Brooks around 15 years ago, he told me the original X-Bullets tended to lose their petals, and he thought that enhanced "killing power." But so many hunters considered high weight retention the primary measure of a big game bullet (especially 100% retention) that he eventually modified the bullets until they tended not to lose petals--unless, of course, they hit substantial bone.

These days the opinion pendulum is apparently swinging the other way--and not just with the X's designed for rounds like the Blackout, but the LRX. Its front end is "softer" than the standard TSX's, so it will expand reliably at longer ranges, where velocity has dropped off.

Have always wondered how so many TSX users know the bullets retain so much weight, when so many claim they're never recovered one.

This doesn't mean Eileen and I don't use a LOT of TSX's. We do--but we also use E-Tips and GMX's, and a bunch of other bullets. Have found they all work very well--if you understand their performance parameters, and put them in the right place....

But if you're convinced one bullet is The Answer....