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Campfire Ranger
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O.P. question:
"Do low recoil cartridges with high sectional density projectiles kill above their pay grade?"
Answer:
Let's ask 1000+ dead elephants and W.D.M Bell what they think of the 7x57 with 175 grain bullets, or the 6.5x54 with 160 grainers.
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That is as pointless as asking foxes about 17 projectiles not exiting so as to not tear up the skin. Horses for courses fellow.
These are my opinions, feel free to disagree.
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Campfire Outfitter
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The truth is that everyone is concerned about S.D., whether we think about it consciously or not. We learn about S.D at a very early age, even if we don't have a name for it or numerical values to compare. Kids know they can throw a marble farther than they can a grape or the Ace of Spades.
It wouldn't bother me to shoot antelope with a 55g .22 (S.D. .157), but I wouldn't consider it with a 55g .58 caliber (S.D. .023, assuming one existed). A bullet with that S.D. and weight would have to be going VERY fast to get past fur.
That said, using S.D. to compare the capabilities of bullets of similar size and shape but radically different construction is problematic at best. Over the years I've had lots of bullets pass through game and recovered others. We've been using TTSX since they came out, for antelope to elk, but we have never recovered a single one - regardless of weight, caliber, impact velocity or angle (broadside to lengthwise).
Coyote Hunter - NRA Patriot Life, NRA Whittington Center Life, GOA, DAD - and I VOTE!
No, I'm not a Ruger bigot - just an unabashed fan of their revolvers, M77's and #1's.
A good .30-06 is a 99% solution.
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The reason you don't recover TSXs is that they barely expand (and at many velocities DON'T expand). What really matters for penetration is expanded SD, so they penetrate just fine.
What they don't do so good at is width of wound channel. I've seen more well-shot game lost with TSXs than any other premium bullet.
The advantage of a high unexpanded SD is that you can have your cake and eat it too if the jacket thickness and weight retention are suitable - a wide wound channel AND a deep wound channel. That's the strength of bonded/soft core high SD bullets like the heavier Weldcores. Their wound tracks are ideal. You can't get that with a low SD bullet - you can have one or the other but not both.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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The reason you don't recover TSXs is that they barely expand (and at many velocities DON'T expand). What really matters for penetration is expanded SD, so they penetrate just fine.
What they don't do so good at is width of wound channel. I've seen more well-shot game lost with TSXs than any other premium bullet.
The advantage of a high unexpanded SD is that you can have your cake and eat it too if the jacket thickness and weight retention are suitable - a wide wound channel AND a deep wound channel. That's the strength of bonded/soft core high SD bullets like the heavier Weldcores. Their wound tracks are ideal. You can't get that with a low SD bullet - you can have one or the other but not both. I compare that to the performance I get from a good old round nose bullet, like the hornady round noses....
"Minus the killings, Washington has one of the lowest crime rates in the Country" Marion Barry, Mayor of Wash DC
“Owning guns is not a right. If it were a right, it would be in the Constitution.” ~Alexandria Ocasio Cortez
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Many tougher round noses work great in terms of terminal performance at a reasonable velocity, but the drag's a bitch 
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The reason you don't recover TSXs is that they barely expand (and at many velocities DON'T expand). What really matters for penetration is expanded SD, so they penetrate just fine.
What they don't do so good at is width of wound channel. I've seen more well-shot game lost with TSXs than any other premium bullet.
The advantage of a high unexpanded SD is that you can have your cake and eat it too if the jacket thickness and weight retention are suitable - a wide wound channel AND a deep wound channel. That's the strength of bonded/soft core high SD bullets like the heavier Weldcores. Their wound tracks are ideal. You can't get that with a low SD bullet - you can have one or the other but not both. Have you recovered said TTSX that expanded and didn't expand?
I prefer dangerous freedom over peaceful slavery - Thomas Jefferson
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The reason you don't recover TSXs is that they barely expand (and at many velocities DON'T expand). What really matters for penetration is expanded SD, so they penetrate just fine.
What they don't do so good at is width of wound channel. I've seen more well-shot game lost with TSXs than any other premium bullet.
The advantage of a high unexpanded SD is that you can have your cake and eat it too if the jacket thickness and weight retention are suitable - a wide wound channel AND a deep wound channel. That's the strength of bonded/soft core high SD bullets like the heavier Weldcores. Their wound tracks are ideal. You can't get that with a low SD bullet - you can have one or the other but not both. Have you recovered said TTSX that expanded and didn't expand? He probably hasn't. In most instances when I see statements like his, when I ask follow up questions I hear things like, "The exit wound looked like a pencil poke". What that usually means is that they are so used to seeing baseball sized exits from cup and core bullets that come apart inside an animal, that when they see an exit from a bullet that actually holds together, they believe it "didn't expand". Also, how can he claim that animals that were lost were "well-shot". If you didn't recover them, they were not "well-shot". I have yet to have a "well-shot" (i.e. both lungs, heart, or CNS) animals go more than 150 yards from impact to crash. The only ones that went over 50 yards for me were already amped up or were going downhill. I have had animals go farther, but I am not going to blow smoke up your butt and tell you that they were "well-shot". Did they die? Yep. Were they "well-shot"? Nope.
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The reason you don't recover TSXs is that they barely expand (and at many velocities DON'T expand). What really matters for penetration is expanded SD, so they penetrate just fine. The reason we haven’t recovered TSX’s is we’ve never used them on game, based on unacceptable and inconsistent results using the original X bullets on game. The TTSX and LRX are not the same. The tip boosts B.C., helping retained velocity, and the damage we’ve seen done isn’t the kind done by unexpanded bullets. What they don't do so good at is width of wound channel. I've seen more well-shot game lost with TSXs than any other premium bullet. We have a 50% (or slightly better) rate of straight-down DRT results with MRX, TTSX and LRX bullets (all tipped X bullets). Two of those were mule deer where a frontal shot exited the rear. We’ve lost a grand total of ZERO animals with the TTSX, antelope, mule deer or elk. Those that don’t go straight down don’t go far. I did have an antelope run about 50 feet before collapsing and one cow elk swapped ends and took about 4 steps uphill. I wish all the C&C and other bullets we use had as good a record. The advantage of a high unexpanded SD is that you can have your cake and eat it too if the jacket thickness and weight retention are suitable - a wide wound channel AND a deep wound channel. That's the strength of bonded/soft core high SD bullets like the heavier Weldcores. Their wound tracks are ideal. You can't get that with a low SD bullet - you can have one or the other but not both. As far as I’m concerned, the Barnes TTSX, LRX, and bonded bullets (AccuBond, Scirocco II and A-Frame) we use are good enough. No problem with penetration or effectivity. S.D. may not be as high with the Barnes as with some of the Weldcore or other options available but dead is dead is dead. In other words, we DO get what we want with “low SD” bullets.
Coyote Hunter - NRA Patriot Life, NRA Whittington Center Life, GOA, DAD - and I VOTE!
No, I'm not a Ruger bigot - just an unabashed fan of their revolvers, M77's and #1's.
A good .30-06 is a 99% solution.
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Campfire Oracle
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LB,what is the minimum SD that should be used for big game?
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Take your responsibilities seriously, never yourself-Ken Howell
Proper bullet placement + sufficient penetration = quick, clean kill. Finn Aagard
Ken
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The reason you don't recover TSXs is that they barely expand (and at many velocities DON'T expand). What really matters for penetration is expanded SD, so they penetrate just fine. The reason we haven’t recovered TSX’s is we’ve never used them on game, based on unacceptable and inconsistent results using the original X bullets on game. The TTSX and LRX are not the same. The tip boosts B.C., helping retained velocity, and the damage we’ve seen done isn’t the kind done by unexpanded bullets. What they don't do so good at is width of wound channel. I've seen more well-shot game lost with TSXs than any other premium bullet. We have a 50% (or slightly better) rate of straight-down DRT results with MRX, TTSX and LRX bullets (all tipped X bullets). Two of those were mule deer where a frontal shot exited the rear. We’ve lost a grand total of ZERO animals with the TTSX, antelope, mule deer or elk. Those that don’t go straight down don’t go far. I did have an antelope run about 50 feet before collapsing and one cow elk swapped ends and took about 4 steps uphill. I wish all the C&C and other bullets we use had as good a record. The advantage of a high unexpanded SD is that you can have your cake and eat it too if the jacket thickness and weight retention are suitable - a wide wound channel AND a deep wound channel. That's the strength of bonded/soft core high SD bullets like the heavier Weldcores. Their wound tracks are ideal. You can't get that with a low SD bullet - you can have one or the other but not both. As far as I’m concerned, the Barnes TTSX, LRX, and bonded bullets (AccuBond, Scirocco II and A-Frame) we use are good enough. No problem with penetration or effectivity. S.D. may not be as high with the Barnes as with some of the Weldcore or other options available but dead is dead is dead. In other words, we DO get what we want with “low SD” bullets. One thing I do like about the TTSX is that for weight it is long...so I don't feel so bad about putting the 120 gr through my Brno 21 which is set for long projectiles.
These are my opinions, feel free to disagree.
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LB,what is the minimum SD that should be used for big game? I would question why you're trying to achieve the minimum - "just how crappy a terminal performance can we get away with here?" Weight retention also plays into it - weight that doesn't stick with the bullet doesn't count. For stopping rifles for any sort of bear, I'd like to see SD=0.3 (mathematically illiterate grains/D/D/7000 method) and 90%+ weight retention across the full range of intended impact velocities. So in ..308 a 200gr Weldcore, Northfork, etc. I would say the minimum for elk is SD=0.27 and typical weight retention of 70%+ across the full range of intended impact velocities. So in .308, a 180gr Partition, Hawk, Accubond etc. For mule deer I'd say SD=0.22/70% retention. So in .308 a 150gr partition. For whitetail, antelope etc. any big game bullet is probably fine.
Last edited by Llama_Bob; 09/27/19.
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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LB,what is the minimum SD that should be used for big game? I would question why you're trying to achieve the minimum - "just how crappy a terminal performance can we get away with here?" Weight retention also plays into it - weight that doesn't stick with the bullet doesn't count. For stopping rifles for any sort of bear, I'd like to see SD=0.3 (mathematically illiterate grains/D/D/7000 method) and 90%+ weight retention across the full range of intended impact velocities. So in ..308 a 200gr Weldcore, Northfork, etc. I would say the minimum for elk is SD=0.27 and typical weight retention of 70%+ across the full range of intended impact velocities. So in .308, a 180gr Partition, Hawk, Accubond etc. For mule deer I'd say SD=0.22/70% retention. So in .308 a 150gr partition. For whitetail, antelope etc. any big game bullet is probably fine. Dumbass response again. +35 I think is where we're at.........
It is irrelevant what you think. What matters is the TRUTH.
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And yet physics remains on my side while you blather on
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Campfire Ranger
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I've killed 46 mule deer bucks in my life without ever consulting your stupid asss. Post some pics of your kills, not what you read somewhere.
Make that +36
It is irrelevant what you think. What matters is the TRUTH.
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Campfire Outfitter
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LB,what is the minimum SD that should be used for big game? I would question why you're trying to achieve the minimum - "just how crappy a terminal performance can we get away with here?" Weight retention also plays into it - weight that doesn't stick with the bullet doesn't count. Weight that “doesn't stick with the bullet” counts until it doesn’t stick. Hence bullet construction plays a huge part in determining the effect a bullt has. For stopping rifles for any sort of bear, I'd like to see SD=0.3 (mathematically illiterate grains/D/D/7000 method) and 90%+ weight retention across the full range of intended impact velocities. So in ..308 a 200gr Weldcore, Northfork, etc. So a 300g .458” bullet, S.D. .204, is woefully inadequate as a bear stopper? Are you nuts? I would say the minimum for elk is SD=0.27 and typical weight retention of 70%+ across the full range of intended impact velocities. So in .308, a 180gr Partition, Hawk, Accubond etc. I killed a 6x6 bull elk with a 350g/.458” North Fork at 211 lasered yards. S.D. was .238. Another with a 150g BT/.308”, S.D. .225. Neither took a step. Think they would have walked away if they knew how low the S.D. values were? For mule deer I'd say SD=0.22/70% retention. So in .308 a 150gr partition.
For whitetail, antelope etc. any big game bullet is probably fine. So a small mule deer rates a higher S.D. than a large whitetail? BTW, the formula for S.D. is NOT “grains/D/D/7000”. Are you “mathematically illiterate”?
Last edited by Coyote_Hunter; 09/27/19. Reason: spelnig
Coyote Hunter - NRA Patriot Life, NRA Whittington Center Life, GOA, DAD - and I VOTE!
No, I'm not a Ruger bigot - just an unabashed fan of their revolvers, M77's and #1's.
A good .30-06 is a 99% solution.
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Posts: 96,041
Campfire Oracle
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Campfire Oracle
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LB,what is the minimum SD that should be used for big game? I would question why you're trying to achieve the minimum - "just how crappy a terminal performance can we get away with here?" Weight retention also plays into it - weight that doesn't stick with the bullet doesn't count. For stopping rifles for any sort of bear, I'd like to see SD=0.3 (mathematically illiterate grains/D/D/7000 method) and 90%+ weight retention across the full range of intended impact velocities. So in ..308 a 200gr Weldcore, Northfork, etc. I would say the minimum for elk is SD=0.27 and typical weight retention of 70%+ across the full range of intended impact velocities. So in .308, a 180gr Partition, Hawk, Accubond etc. For mule deer I'd say SD=0.22/70% retention. So in .308 a 150gr partition. For whitetail, antelope etc. any big game bullet is probably fine. How many animals did you kill to come up with those numbers?
Life Member SCI
Life Member DSC
Member New Mexico Shooting Sports Association
Take your responsibilities seriously, never yourself-Ken Howell
Proper bullet placement + sufficient penetration = quick, clean kill. Finn Aagard
Ken
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Campfire Tracker
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I do believe in the smaller calibers that SD can make a difference. On the other end I shot about a dozen deer with a 9.3X62 with a Norma 232g bullet. Not a high SD bullet by any means. It does how ever hammer a deer, and does not tear up any meat.
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Campfire Outfitter
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I do believe in the smaller calibers that SD can make a difference. On the other end I shot about a dozen deer with a 9.3X62 with a Norma 232g bullet. Not a high SD bullet by any means. It does how ever hammer a deer, and does not tear up any meat. S.D matters with every bullet, but taken alone it is a very poor indicator of terminal performance. To be meaningful in any way you need to specify a bunch of things, like construction, , impact velocity and rate, degree and manner of deformation. With those fixed or typical parameters and caliber known, S.D. becomes a more reliable predictor. But given all those knowns, you could use bullet weight just as well. BTW, your 232g/9.3mm bullet has a S.D. of around .247. Don't try stopping any bears with it. 
Last edited by Coyote_Hunter; 09/28/19.
Coyote Hunter - NRA Patriot Life, NRA Whittington Center Life, GOA, DAD - and I VOTE!
No, I'm not a Ruger bigot - just an unabashed fan of their revolvers, M77's and #1's.
A good .30-06 is a 99% solution.
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^^^^
As you point out: so many other factors have to be ‘right’ for SD to be worth considering, that what others have tried to say (if everything else is ‘right’, there’s no need to worry much about SD), becomes the reality.
If all things line up for a bullet to be good for the intended game use, (construction, expansion, weight, energy, velocity, BC, etc) the SD will (by default) be good. Any value SD has, is a product of other bullet attributes. Otherwise, SD is irrelevant.
Last edited by hh4whiskey; 09/28/19.
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LB,what is the minimum SD that should be used for big game? Ummmm......dat was mean! 😂😂😂 Sectional density cant be used as a foundation based off of a number and so LB's theory is basically built on a foundation that was proven to be full of cracks years ago but only because bullet construction differs and therefore cannot be determined. My guess is you knew he'd readily spew numbers....lol Mathematically however the principles are solid IF everything were equal. If a person understands this along with bullet construction maybe, just maybe it would be possible to make the theory work for oneself to a reasonable degree Trystan
Last edited by Trystan; 09/28/19.
Good bullets properly placed always work, but not everyone knows what good bullets are, or can reliably place them in the field
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