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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 30,286 |
John, here in MT I've often found 300 Mag users are generally hunters, not rifle looney's, who tend to use one rifle. Like any good American male they tend to think "bigger is better" with little thought to much else. I've also found very few of these guys shoot much, and several I know only shoot with a lead sled when they do shoot. They may have a lot of field experience with the 300's, but as more than one person has noted, "experience can be long but thin." What they point 300's at die, so they assume it has to be more effective than the lowly 30-06, 308, or 270. But of course they have no experience with those rounds, so the confirmation bias continues, and they push 300's on new hunters just coming in state with little or no rifle experience. I've seen it too many times to count, and have given up trying to interject logic into these conversations. "A man convinced against his will remains unconvinced still."
I have one friend here, a not too young guy right around 40, that grew up in Helena where the family ranch is. He started hunting at the usual 12 years old with a 7mm-08. That rifle accounted for over a dozen elk, as well as a bunch of deer and antelope in his and siblings hands. He now shoots a 300 Ultra Mag. I asked him if he ever had any trouble killing any game in Montana with the 7mm-08. He replied, "never." I asked him why he didn't just stick with it? His answer was mostly a lot of ballistic gack committed to memory. He also drives and enormous "lifted" truck...
“Perfection is Achieved Not When There Is Nothing More to Add, But When There Is Nothing Left to Take Away” Antoine de Saint-Exupery
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Jul 2001
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Brad,
That's pretty much my experience as well. While some .300 fans know what they're talking about, many have an exaggerrated idea of .300 effectiveness, often based on energy figures and/or how much more a .300 kicks than a .30-06. I pointed out in one of my books that a typical 180-grain .300 Winchester load recoils out of proportion to its kinetic energy when compared to a typical 180-grain .30-06 load. Here are the recoil numbers, the .30-06 at 2700 fps and the .300 at 3000 fps, in an 8-pound rifle:
.30-06: recoil 22 foot-pounds, muzzle energy 2913
.300: recoil 35 foot-pounds, muzzle energy 3596
The .300's increase in muzzle energy is 23%, but its increase in recoil is 59%.
One former Campfire member who considered himself a real elk expert because he'd taken "almost 10," said he started with a .30-06 but all the elk he shot went over 100 yards before falling. When he switched to a .300 Winchester, they started dropping far quicker, either right there within 50 yards.
I've killed as many elk with the .30-06 as with several .300 magnums combined, from the .300 WSM to Weatherby. Somehow none of my .30-06 elk (which includes my biggest bull, both in body and antler) went as far as 50 yards after the shot. That big bull went about 25 feet. I suspect that the guy (like many hunters) didn't realize the role shot placement plays in "killing power"--or how small a part recoil plays.
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.”
John Steinbeck
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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two good posts J.B and Brad....real world responses based on experience instead of speculation...
of the many years of being on the campfire, I've come to the conclusion, I'd bet there are more Magnums in gun cabinets and closets east of the Mississippi than their are west of the Mississippi.....
Living back east, you always hear how you need a magnum to hunt anything west of the Mississippi, because your shot will be at much longer ranges...move out west here, ask the locals... oh bring whatever ya got.....I see people every year around here, older hunters out going after elk with a lever action... which are the most frequently 30/30s...
I've got a couple of 300 Mags... one bought in MN when I was told I needed one out west to hunt, and it was on sale after hunting season... another I traded a campfire member who wanted a 22.250 I had, but didn't have any money, so he wanted to trade a 300 Win Mag in a Model 70 he won at a drawing... ( or so he said)...did it more to help a brother out, than really needing the 300 Mag..
both are accurate and its against my religion to get rid of an accurate rifle.... any time I shoot them are normally just over at the range.. using either 4198 or SR 4759......for hunting with the Browning A Bolt around here, a cast bullet load manual load...
22 grains of Unique, 150 grain FN or RN.. MV of 2000 fps....basically a bolt action 30/30 equivalent...usually one hole groups at 100 yds over at the range...4 power scope on top.. carrying it at woods ranges... where 150 yds is a real long shot... its accounted for 3 or 4 deer by me over the last 30 years I've had it..... and probably ten to a dozen when I've loaned it to kids hunting with us, with their dads or grandpas....
When I have taken it afield, to use as a magnum.. my loads have been 220 grain RNs with a charge of H1000, a little over book max.. running at 300 Weatherby speeds...I haven't had an elk present itself when afield with it... but a few folks I've loaned it to with the bullets loaded for it, have done so....the shot dropped the elk, close to DRT.... then again, the shots were 200 to 300 yds max.. but I bet a smaller caliber, like a 7/08 or 260 would have done just as well....
When I do go elk hunting, I'm doing alot of walking and moving, so I carry my Featherweight in 7 x 57... with a 160 grain Speer in it...40 grains of 3031..., but it doesn't matter, I'm the most unlucky elk hunter in the USA... when I stumble across a good one, easy to drop... its deer season.. come the week of elk season, they are all on vacation down in Fla or something...they come back when its back to deer season...I've taken one elk, and that was with a down loaded 06... I think that was my one quota for life...
"Minus the killings, Washington has one of the lowest crime rates in the Country" Marion Barry, Mayor of Wash DC
“Owning guns is not a right. If it were a right, it would be in the Constitution.” ~Alexandria Ocasio Cortez
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Many moons ago I guided a business man carrying his 300 WMag "death ray" (his words) wearing a scope I swear you could track the stars with. After many blown stalks getting him within 300 yards because he never met a rock or downed limb he couldn't trip over and then chew out, it finally dawned on me why he packed that thing around.
Eventually he gut shot a nice Mulie from too far away and I tracked it down and finished it with my .30-30.
It's you and the bullet, and all the rest is secondary.
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I am one of those "long and thin" hunters. I was slow to join the 300 magnum bandwagon, and only own two: a Mark II M77 in 300 RSAUM and an X-Bolt Medallion in 300 H&H. Neither is violent to the shoulder with factory loads, but shooting more than a half dozen rounds is not "fun". Threads like this keep me hanging around the 6MM Remington and the 280... I can't tell you how many times Brad and Mule Deer have talked me out of bigger stuff... Confession: I have yet to own a 308!! or a 30-06... :-/
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Campfire Tracker
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I’ve been using 7’s and 6.5’s for everything going on 10 years now. They work great. The 308,’06 and 270 type rounds still get a lot of use in my circle of friends as well.
But I admit I kinda missed how my 30-378 knocked the snot out of things.. to all of you saying there’s no difference have limited experience on the other end of the spectrum, imho.
Big 30’s do hit harder, it’s visible if one cares to pay attention.. Do they kill faster? With like bullet placement/construction yes, yes they do.
Are they needed or even ideal ? For most No, bullet placement matters. Basic stuff.
I just bought a 300 PRC a few weeks ago, I’m loving it! I’m looking forward to using a 30cal with enthusiasm again , love those 230 hybrids!
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I started big game hunting when I moved to northwestern Colorado in the mid '60s. At that time I didn't own a centerfire rifle, so I asked two of the locals that I worked with there what rifle and cartridge I should buy. They recommended a .270 Win or .30-06. They said only the "city dudes" from Denver hunted with .300 Magnums. So I bought a .30-06 and proceeded to put 8 elk into my freezer.
A couple of years after I moved to Montana, my hunting partner gave me a .30 Gibbs case, and I thought it looked so cool that I had Les Bauska in Kalispell re-chamber my .30-06 to .30 Gibbs. My 180 grain Nosler Partition handloads chronographed 2923 fps, which was just under the .300 Win velocities, so I considered my .30 Gibbs to be my first .30 caliber magnum rifle. I then used that rifle to put another 20 some elk in my freezer.
The same time that I had Les chamber my .30 Gibbs, I had him make me a .257 Ackley and a .22-250. I guess that was the start of me becoming, as Brad says, a rifle looney, as I now reload 11 rifle cartridges (including .308 Win, .270 Win, and 3 belted magnum rifles), 6 pistol cartridges, 4 shotgun gauges, and 6 black powder firearms. I buy all of my rifle and pistol primers in lots of 1,000 and my shotgun primers in lots of 5,000, and powder, including powder for my magnum rifles, in 8 pound kegs.
I built my .300 Weatherby 10 years ago, and it quickly became my favorite rifle. I shoot at our local range every Wednesday, and will often shoot 20 or more rounds through my .300 Wby on each session. I've also taken it on 3 hunts in Africa and on hunts in New Zealand and Azerbaijan. I also consider myself a hunter, and as a collector, I have mounts of over 60 species of animals that I have hunted.
So back to the OP's original post, although I've killed scores of big game animals with non-magnum cartridges, at least half of my big game hunting has been with magnum rifles.
SAVE 200 ELK, KILL A WOLF
NRA Endowment Life Member
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I have not used the 300 win mag cartridge extensively, but I have used the 300 WSM (near equivalent) extensively in norther Canada, South Africa and Namibia. It's performed as well as I've been able to shoot on a variety of game from WT deer, Mule deer, Black Bear, Caribou and Moose to Gemsbok and Black Wildebeest. I have also used the 300 WM on several deer, an elk and Pronghorn. Yes, I could have taken most of those animals with a 270 win. and in many cases I have (incl. Kudu with 140 gr TBBCs), but there's just enough extra power and momentum the 300 win mag brings to bear with 180gr-200gr bullets that gives me more flexibility and confidence for use as an all-around cartridge for worldwide hunting and especially if on multi-specie hunts.
As I gain more field experience as both a hunter and marksman, I realize that some of the above is more intangible (ex. Brad's point that cartridges are more alike than different) but combined, the confidence, flexibility, power and momentum has made the difference in the real world for me to choose the 300 win. mag. cartridge as my primary hunting cartridge. For species specific hunts (eastern WT) or to mix things up, I may choose differently and likely a 270 win or similar, but when I need a cartridge to really count on, my first choice is the 300 win mag.
To put a spin on Brad's quote, I will say that rifles are more different than alike and if your rifle fails you, no 'best' cartridge in the world is going to do you any good on a hunt. As such, I am currently having a fine Model 70 rifle completely re-built and will share details as they emerge!
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I will also respectfully add two quotes from an early mentor, Allen Day (RIP), who spoke very highly of the 300 win mag and even shot a cape buffalo with the cartridge. Allen wrote extensively about the 300 win mag, so these are only two of many quotes on his views and confidence in the cartridge that I found. Context is important so I'll add (and others who knew him better than I are free to share) that Allen obviously loved other cartridges and in later years, seemed to prefer his 338 win mag over his 300 win mag for the type of hunting that he was doing. I further recall that he was looking forward to using his 270 win for mule deer and eventually take the 270 win and the 375 H&H to Africa as a fun plains game combo. He also scaled back from owning lots of 'safe queen' type rifles of questionable function, reliability or use in the field under high stakes, extreme or dangerous circumstances to owning just a few really awesome and reliable and accurate rifles from D'Arcy Echols. I am now of that same belief. BC, that's a tough call.
I own Echols 'Legend' rifles in 270 Win., 300 Win., 338 Win., 375 H&H & 416 Rem. The only one of these that I haven't hunted with a great deal is the 270, but it's essentially a new rifle that I haven't had the chance to hunt with yet, but I will starting next year.
The 375 H&H, 300 Win., and the 338 Win. Mag. have seen extensive use, including much African hunting, and I'll tell you straight out, there isn't a dime's worth of difference in the way any of these cartridges kill African plainsgame ranging in size between impala and eland. When loaded with good premium bullets, they're all plenty for any sort of African plainsgame hunting that you'll ever get into, and anyone who tries to tell you otherwise is full of prune juice.
If I were pushed to the wall, I'd take the 300 Win. Mag. over the 338 Win. Mag. or the 375H&H for African plainsgame use, especially if you plan to do much hunting in Namibia, RSA, or Tanzania. In any of those countries, the possibility of a long shot is a definite reality, and in that department, the 300 has a bit of an edge over the 338 and offers no drawbacks whatsoever.
And of course, there isn't anything in N. America that you can't hunt with the 300 Win. Mag., so you're really covered no matter where you hunt with it...........
I also much prefer the 300 Win. Mag. to the 300 Weatherby. The 300 Wby. burns more powder, kicks harder, and makes more noise, but in practical terms it offers nothing extra in the way of trajectory or killing power, plus to me it just isn't as shootable; ammo and brass aren't as available; plus there's the free-bore issue to sort out. I also think that the 300 Win. Mag. is more inherently accurate and is easier to work with on all counts.
I don't think that a dangerous game rifle is any place to cut corners. That's not the rifle to go cheap on, because these critters play for keeps (meaning, they can kill you), and at the end of the day, a no-compromise rifle that's built to function, feed, and shoot with 100% reliability is the cheapest and most meaningful life insurance policy you could ever invest in. And I can't think of any other custom riflemakers who can get a rifle to feed and function as well as these two guys can.
I've grown to truly love the 416 Rem. Mag. It offers a significantly bigger hammer for buffalo, etc., than the 375 H&H, and you can get it built in the rifle that weighs no more than a 375 and that will hold four-down in the magazine.
So.............
I recommend that you invest in a pair of rifles in 300 Win. Mag. and 416 Rem. Mag., and get set to do some hunting.
For a third rifle, get a Model 70 in 270 Win.and have Mark Penrod tune, bed, and otherwise work it over in a cost-effective manner............
AD
....Back in 1995, I was on a 21-day safari in Tanzania. My battery consisted of two rifles, one a 300 Win. Mag., and the other a 458 Win. Mag. I had taken one zebra, one buffalo, and one hippo with the 458, then that rifle developed a trigger problem that precluded us from using it any more on that safari.
Besides much plainsgame, I still had two buffalo, as well as lion and leopard permits to fill. I had only the 300 Winchester to use, and I was shooting Winchester factory ammo loaded with 180 gr. Winchester Fail-Safe bullets @ 3050 fps. MV. My PH had seen me shoot for the better part of a week, and he had seen good performance out of those tough Fail-Safe bullets, so he was confident that we could get the job done.
So we approached the Tanzanian game scout with the request that he allow me to shoot those remaining animals with the 300 Win. Mag., and the proviso was that we bring in another PH to serve as back-up, both PHs being armed with double-rifles. With the approval of our government-appointed game scout, we went ahead and hunted.
I killed both buffalo, as well as the lion and leopard with one shot apiece (off-hand shots only), and they all went down on the spot, without fuss.
These episodes were described in Mark Sullivan's book, 'Death and Double Rifles', and I'll specifically refer to a caption that appeared on page 194 under the photo of one of my buffalo that I put in the salt with that 300 Win. Mag.
"Allen Day and Shawn pictured with a fine bull. He has a spread of 43". Allen's 458 broke early in the safari leaving Allen with only his .300 Winchester and 180 gr. bullets with which to hunt. Understanding the severity of the situation, Allen shot for the spine killing each of his next two buffalo with one shot. A job well done." - September 2, 1995
The hunts for the other buffalo I shot with that 300 as well as a leopard, are featured in Sullivan's DVD 'Sudden Death', both going down without fuss............
AD
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Joined: Jul 2001
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Jul 2001
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CanadianLefty,
Most of the older dangerous-game PH's I have hunted with have shot numerous buffalo with cartridges such as the .30-06, 7mm Remington Magnum and .300 Winchester Magnum.
The most experienced PH I've hunted with is Kevin Thomas, who retired a few years ago. He started his career as a game scout for the then-Rhodesian game department at 17, after graduating from high school in 1967. He went from there to "managing" the game on a huge ranch, where one of his jobs was culling buffalo to make way for domestic cattle, and for that he mostly used the .30-06, handloaded with 180-grain Nosler Partitions. He killed several hundred with that load, and not with head shots on night hunts, but during day-drives which ran buffalo toward him. He reported no difficulty in killing big bulls, even with frontal chest shots--though back in those days the Partitions were the lathe-turned model, which may or may not have penetrated deeper.
He had a couple of military interludes, first as a Selous Scout during the Rhodesian "bush war," and later as a "consultant" for the U.S. in the Mideast about a decade ago, but was mostly a professional hunter until his "retirement." (He is now mostly a writer, and has published several fascinating books, including one titled THERE'S SOMETHING ABOUT BUFFALO, including several chapters from various other contributors.
Toward the end of his career he often carried his .375 H&H for back-up, a custom Musgrave on a 98 Mauser action, and has personally remarked to me that he was sometimes "seriously outgunned" by his clients--yet every year had to follow up and finish off bulls in the thick jess of Zimbabwe that had been wounded by much larger cartridges. However, he did prefer a .458 Lott for backing up elephant hunters.
All of his books are fascinating reading, because he has been there and done that numerous times.
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.”
John Steinbeck
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Campfire Outfitter
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FWIW I seem to remember Allen Day opining that the 300 win mag was a bigger stick than his 270.
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Campfire Outfitter
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I used a very similar 300 WSM for many years and shot a lot of elk and deer with it. I certainly can't fault it's effectiveness. But then I realized that in all those years, I'd never shot a single animal that I couldn't have got just as easily with a 30-06 that weighed a pound less. I'm to the age where a pound counts so I'm back to the '06. In factory rifles a 30-06 isnt much lighter than the same rifle chambered in 300 win mag. But if it were the recoil would be pretty stout. I worked with a friends fairly light 30-06 doing load development quit extensively last season and honestly the recoil while less than a 300 win mag, was still pretty obnoxious off the bench.
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Campfire Ranger
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If you have a 300 WSM you have a 30-06 & a 308. What I like most about the 300 WSM is, it will push either a 165 or 180 to 3000 fps. Aint much you can’t terminate with that.
"I never thought I'd live to see the day that a U.S. president would raise an army to invade his own country."
Robert E. Lee
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Thank you for sharing that Mule Deer. I believe it. I will buy a copy of that book! I missed you at the last series of trade shows in 2019. Need to catch up; it's been a few years.
Reminds me of the last book Allen recommended to me:
One Man, One Rifle, One Land by J. Y. Jones which probably speaks, in part, to how Allen felt about having one good rifle and the 30-06 cartridge, albeit not what he would personally use.
I think that most very proficient hunters can handle 99% of the world's game with a 270 Win. if someone else was paying their hunts and taxidermy. That is, at no risk to them. Given that, another way to capture the rationale for a 300 win mag is that it provides for a 'margin of safety'. In business, the higher the margin of safety, the less risk of business loss or higher success (diff between actual sales and b/e sales). In hunting, maybe, the larger diameter, more powerful cartridge provides lower risk of animal loss and greater chance of success over a wider range of game and distances, shot placement and bullet construction being equal. I don't think that this can ever be proven scientifically, but that's my way of rationalizing a bit more cartridge over just enough.
Do you pick up a 7x57, a 270 win, a 264 win mag 30-06 or a 300 Mag (of some variety) for a limited entry elk hunt that takes 15 years to draw? In most of those situations, I tend to go with more power while I might then rationalize a local deer hunt with picking up a 270 win.
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FWIW I seem to remember Allen Day opining that the 300 win mag was a bigger stick than his 270. Absolutely.
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Campfire Outfitter
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If you have a 300 WSM you have a 30-06 & a 308. What I like most about the 300 WSM is, it will push either a 165 or 180 to 3000 fps. Aint much you can’t terminate with that. Same is true with the .300WM. My first laods for my .300WM were .308 equivalents. Next I did some .30-06 equivalents, then .300WM full power loads. (At the time, I had neither a 308 nor .30-06.) Never used anything but full power .300WM loads in the field. Never used them at the range after initial development, either, but they shot well.
Coyote Hunter - NRA Patriot Life, NRA Whittington Center Life, GOA, DAD - and I VOTE!
No, I'm not a Ruger bigot - just an unabashed fan of their revolvers, M77's and #1's.
A good .30-06 is a 99% solution.
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After reading all of this, I have finally decided to sell my .300 Win Mag and just use one of my 30-06’s. Never did like that short neck anyway 😊even though the rifle shot very welll with both handloads and factory ammo.
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Campfire Ranger
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Big 30’s do hit harder, it’s visible if one cares to pay attention..
!
 (that’s a smile not a laugh ) Yes it’s visible IF you’re looking. Now, when shooting thru the lungs my observation is there is less visible reaction. When the bullet is put into more mass I’ve always seen more reaction. Obviously and admittedly I’ve killed more WT with smaller cartridges. I’ve had bang flops and death runs with 243/6mm, 270, 308, & 06. But I’ve had proportionally more bang flops OR shorter death runs with the 300s. That’s been my experience and observation. Jerry
jwall- *** 3100 guy***
A Flat Trajectory is Never a Handicap
Speed is Trajectory's Friend !!
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I'd rather hunt a 300 win mag than an 06, and do.
The extra recoil is not a factor for me and an easy trade off for the extra speed. Downside for me is the 300 rifle weighs more.
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In my world, my 300 Win Mag may have just been retired by my acquisition of a 280 Rem.
How do you know a Trump hater? They'll tell you.
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