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Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 3,395 Likes: 2
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 3,395 Likes: 2 |
Does any mfg make a extreme conditions- hard use ready to buy factory rifle? One that will work in sub zero- extreme heat- dry sandy- moist muddy weather- perhaps backup irons if your optic fails kind of rifle. Bolt action.... To be fair, if you’re interested in actual data from military trials, a lot of the rifles mentioned that people think are “bombproof”, really don’t fair well when used heavily; especially in ice/sleet and chalky blowing sand. Triggers are item #1 to give problems. Extraction and ejection, and kind of suprisingly to most- feeding. The gold standard is the Accuracy International Arctic Warfare (AW and AWM), along with the AIAX. Right “under” them is the Sako TRG series. And in the two legitimate military trials where they have been tested- the Tikka T3x (Arctic and Tac). The reason why is a bunch of little details and quality manufacturer, but big picture it’s because of the environment they were designed around... which is in their names- “Arctic Warfare” and T3x “Arctic”. The T3 really being a lighter hunting version of the TRG. Rain that seeps down into the trigger mechanism and then freezes is the cause of most issues. The AI, Sako, and T3 were all specifically designed to function in that environment. Properally designed two stage triggers will always be more reliable and forgiving of debris. They have significantly more sear engagement which is helps with drop tests and can be used for the first stage to clear ice/debris. Single stages can be good, the stock single stage T3 trigger is very good, but across the board a well designed two stage is more reliable, especially at lighter pull weights. Extraction and ejection has the same issues with water freezing. Again, all three were specifically designed to function in those conditions. Lastly of the big items: detachable magazines. Purists will loose their minds over this- but well designed detachable magazines (AI and TRG) have proven repeatedly to have a higher mean rounds between stoppages than internal box mags. Consistently. Properly built controlled round feed actions have not proven to be more reliable than the above push feeds. Yes, they have been tested alongside them.
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Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 3,395 Likes: 2
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 3,395 Likes: 2 |
There are a couple of newer rifle systems that have done well in real testing- the Barrett MRAD for instance, but if reliability in ice/sleet is important (blowing sand is in there as well), then the AI AW would be number one, and the SAKO TRG series or T3X Arctic would be number two of where I would go based on their performance.
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Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 7,506
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 7,506 |
ruger all weather version, either mk2 or hawkeye.
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Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 18,927 Likes: 1
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 18,927 Likes: 1 |
Ruger 77 MK II w open sights if sights are a must, if not either a 77 MK II without sights or a Hawkeye.
CRF Model 70 in SS/Synthetic would be good as well.
The last time that bear ate a lawyer he had the runs for 33 days!
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Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 46,745
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 46,745 |
Winchester extreme weather
Camp is where you make it.
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Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 4,531
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 4,531 |
Does any mfg make a extreme conditions- hard use ready to buy factory rifle? One that will work in sub zero- extreme heat- dry sandy- moist muddy weather- perhaps backup irons if your optic fails kind of rifle. Bolt action.... To be fair, if you’re interested in actual data from military trials, a lot of the rifles mentioned that people think are “bombproof”, really don’t fair well when used heavily; especially in ice/sleet and chalky blowing sand. Triggers are item #1 to give problems. Extraction and ejection, and kind of suprisingly to most- feeding. The gold standard is the Accuracy International Arctic Warfare (AW and AWM), along with the AIAX. Right “under” them is the Sako TRG series. And in the two legitimate military trials where they have been tested- the Tikka T3x (Arctic and Tac). The reason why is a bunch of little details and quality manufacturer, but big picture it’s because of the environment they were designed around... which is in their names- “Arctic Warfare” and T3x “Arctic”. The T3 really being a lighter hunting version of the TRG. Rain that seeps down into the trigger mechanism and then freezes is the cause of most issues. The AI, Sako, and T3 were all specifically designed to function in that environment. Properally designed two stage triggers will always be more reliable and forgiving of debris. They have significantly more sear engagement which is helps with drop tests and can be used for the first stage to clear ice/debris. Single stages can be good, the stock single stage T3 trigger is very good, but across the board a well designed two stage is more reliable, especially at lighter pull weights. Extraction and ejection has the same issues with water freezing. Again, all three were specifically designed to function in those conditions. Lastly of the big items: detachable magazines. Purists will loose their minds over this- but well designed detachable magazines (AI and TRG) have proven repeatedly to have a higher mean rounds between stoppages than internal box mags. Consistently. Properly built controlled round feed actions have not proven to be more reliable than the above push feeds. Yes, they have been tested alongside them. Not to get off track, but refresh my memory Form on the differences (if any) in the AW to AIAT/AX trigger mechanics. Like you mentioned, I’ve run my AT hard in schitty conditions and it’s never failed to do exactly what I ask of it. A lot of rifles may get churned, but those never will....
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Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 3,395 Likes: 2
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 3,395 Likes: 2 |
Not to get off track, but refresh my memory Form on the differences (if any) in the AW to AIAT/AX trigger mechanics.
Same excellent trigger. The AIAT is just a Product Improved AW.
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Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 2,082
Campfire Regular
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OP
Campfire Regular
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 2,082 |
So the newer MKII and Hawkeyes over the original M77’s with the Tang safety?
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Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 2,082
Campfire Regular
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OP
Campfire Regular
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 2,082 |
I like that Remington stainless model 7 HS. I’d have a smith put irons on that but the barrel is awfully thin!
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Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 7,940 Likes: 3
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 7,940 Likes: 3 |
Not having iron sights shouldn't be a deal killer. I've found "quality" optics to be more rugged than MOST iron sights anyway. And if irons are a "must have" I'd still choose the rifle 1st and add irons to it if it didn't have them. I'd not choose a lesser quality rifle just because it came from the factory with cheap iron sights. And 99% of them have cheap irons, mostly for decoration anyway.
A Ruger Hawkeye All Weather or a Winchester EW would be near the top of my list if I were buying now. But I already have a Winchester 70 Classic SS in 30-06 set in a McMillan Edge stock that checks off all the boxes. I prefer the older Classic Winchesters slightly over the newer EW simply because of the old style trigger.
The information on Tikka is new to me. Sounds interesting and promising. I do like the Tikka's I've shot, and have a CTR that I like a lot.
Most people don't really want the truth.
They just want constant reassurance that what they believe is the truth.
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Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 13,122
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 13,122 |
So the newer MKII and Hawkeyes over the original M77’s with the Tang safety? I'd take a tanger, but they were not offered in stainless
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 30,283
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 30,283 |
Mauser 98 with original trigger, Ruger M77 MKII/Hawkeye, Winchester 70 with open trigger. There are others, but those are at the top.
I'm of the opinion no rifle with a closed trigger belongs in this category. However, those rifles with an open slot safety and closed trigger, like the M700, are the worst offenders. Something like the Kimber or Nuevo Winchester 70 are far better, not having an open channel to the trigger.
For 99% of us, in 99% of the conditions we hunt, it will never matter.
“Perfection is Achieved Not When There Is Nothing More to Add, But When There Is Nothing Left to Take Away” Antoine de Saint-Exupery
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Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 12,145 Likes: 3
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 12,145 Likes: 3 |
OK...OK... I'll Bite is it an AK47?  In all seriousness,, the thought crossed my mind. As well as a lot of military type rifles. Many are a bit... Proven. Given the OP's original criteria, this was my first thought as well...
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Joined: Dec 2017
Posts: 1,360
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: Dec 2017
Posts: 1,360 |
To bad you have no interest in Win 92, Win 94, or Marlin 336 or 95. About as rugged and bullet proof as it gets when it comes to feed and fire. You said no autos but said nothing about tube feed levers.
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Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 69,260 Likes: 10
Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 69,260 Likes: 10 |
Ruger Gunsight Scout in 308
"Allways speak the truth and you will never have to remember what you said before..." Sam Houston
Texans, "We say Grace, We Say Mam, If You Don't Like it, We Don't Give a Damn!"
~Molɔ̀ːn Labé Skýla~
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 4,179
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 4,179 |
Sub-zero changes a lot of things.
My Kimber Montana stock was super cold, like 10 hours of single digits cold, and I slipped and fell hard on ice.
Now I know what it looks like under the gray outer coating.
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Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 397
Campfire Member
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Campfire Member
Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 397 |
Same excellent trigger. The AIAT is just a Product Improved AW. The AXMC and later models have an adjustable trigger shoe but other than that they are the same two-stage trigger. I have an AW, two AWMs and an AXMC and would agree that they're top tier hard use rifles. I've hunted twice with the AW and at 15lb plus the weight of the scope it's a bit much to lug around MT. I've wished for a 7lb to 8lb AI hunting rifle for years but it's just not their market. For me, a hard use bolt action rifle must have a locking bolt handle. I could care less about push feed or CRF having examples of both that work very well, but a locking bolt handle is non-negotiable.
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 17,144 Likes: 4
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 17,144 Likes: 4 |
Ruger Gunsight Scout in 308 That’s what I got.
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Joined: Aug 2015
Posts: 974
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: Aug 2015
Posts: 974 |
How would a Savage in stainless steel do in extreme conditions?
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Joined: Jun 2016
Posts: 9,634 Likes: 1
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Jun 2016
Posts: 9,634 Likes: 1 |
Levers, as sweet & handy as they are, were tested thoroughly over a century ago & found to have weaknesses that most of us wouldn't realize day to day.
Robust bolt actions in powerful calibers ruled as long as they did for a lot of reasons. Some real, some anticipated.
Last edited by gunzo; 11/27/19.
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