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For my purposes, I want to shoot 120 grain mono metal bullets in a 6.5 CM. Is that realistic? What barrel length is needed, 22”, 24”, or 26”? This is for a new bolt rifle or a rebarreled M70. I don’t own a 6.5 CM at this time.
Recommended powder, primer, and brass also appreciated.
I have a bunch of 120 gr TTSX, ETip, and GMX leftover from a 6.5 M96 Swede...
Got it covered with the 22 LR, 30-06, and 12 gauge.
The rest are just for fun.
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It might be done, most of the reloading manuals say 2900+ as a max load with a 24" barrel. A longer barrel and pushing the envelope might get you there. I can't really see another 100fps making much of a difference in a hunting situation.
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I agree, not really significant, yet it is my decision point between 6.5 CM or PRC. The 3000 FPS determines my self-imposed range limit of 2000 FPS impact velocity. The TTSX has the lowest ballistic coefficient, the other two are higher. So 3005 FPS at sea level (I’m at 167 feet) gives me the 2000+ FPS impact at 450 yards. That’s the loony goal for a new 6.5.
Got it covered with the 22 LR, 30-06, and 12 gauge.
The rest are just for fun.
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Why? What is your purpose? Inquiring minds want to know.
There is a war on America and America is losing
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I got a bit over 2900 fps with Ramshot Hunter and 120 grain Nosler Ballistic Tips out of a Ruger Hawkeye with a 24 inch barrel. With a 26 inch barrel you might get 3000 fps.
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I got to 3090 with 123 Scenars with RL 17 and a 28" Krieger. Didn't go in chasing velocity, it just shoots well with that load.
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Campfire Kahuna
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Ramshot's data lists 2997 fps as max with the 120 Ballistic Tip, using Hunter in a 24" barrel, at 58,280 PSI.
The SAAMI pressure for the round is relatively low; dunno why, since it tends to be very consistent ballistically. A lot of reloaders push published loads another grain or so. (Others push it a LOT.)
I got around 3100 with the 120 Ballistic Tip with Hunter from the 26" barrel of my first Creedmoor, with fine accuracy. That was a factory Ruger barrel, not a custom with a minimum chamber or bore.
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John Steinbeck
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So 3005 FPS at sea level (I’m at 167 feet) gives me the 2000+ FPS impact at 450 yards. That’s the loony goal for a new 6.5. And 2900 fps at the muzzle will give you 2000+ FPS at 425 yards, 1972 @ 450. Close enough, I wouldn't worry about the last 100 fps.
Most people don't really want the truth.
They just want constant reassurance that what they believe is the truth.
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I got 2950 out of a 120 ballistic tip with H4350. 22” barrel, book max load. Should get you close.
Old70
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JB,
It was your 26” Ruger that revived my interest in the 6.5 CM. Read your article in a gun mag that had 14 different 6.5 cartridges in it. Can’t remember the mag, I bought it earlier this month. I’m traveling now and don’t have it with me. There was also an article by you on the 6.5-06 in the mag.
I was leaning towards the PRC until I saw your load with the Ballistic Tip.
I really need to quit reading so much of your work. First it was the 9.3x62, then the 308, and now the 6.5 CM. Most of the 6.5 stuff has been your comments here on 24CF. Sure hope you don’t write about anything else soon... I don’t get any more gun money allowance until next year!
Got it covered with the 22 LR, 30-06, and 12 gauge.
The rest are just for fun.
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My thinking was similar and instead of pushing things I decided to go with the PRC. Still playing with loads but currently getting 3050+ with a 130 AB over a somewhat pedestrian load of 57.5 gr. H1000 out of a 24" . Good luck. Mac
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Campfire Kahuna
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ShortMagFan,
Those articles were in one of the Wolfe Publishing special editions this year, which feature both new articles and reprints from older issues of RIFLE and HANDLOADER. Both of my articles were reprint. Kinda wish I'd kept that rifle, but have to keep experimenting, which means some rifles get sacrificed for others.
Watch out! This year my schedule for HANDLOADER includes such cutting-edge rounds as the .32-40 and .40-65!
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.”
John Steinbeck
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.40-65?
Now you’re talking my language, black powder and 410gr cast bullets!
Imagine a corporate oligarchy so effective, so advanced and fine tuned that its citizens still call it a democracy.
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ShortMagFan,
Those articles were in one of the Wolfe Publishing special editions this year, which feature both new articles and reprints from older issues of RIFLE and HANDLOADER. Both of my articles were reprint. Kinda wish I'd kept that rifle, but have to keep experimenting, which means some rifles get sacrificed for others.
Watch out! This year my schedule for HANDLOADER includes such cutting-edge rounds as the .32-40 and .40-65! Hey Mule Deer - don’t confuse me with the OP! Though I have a similar question about 120 grain bullets in the 6.5 saum...I saw your results with 120s in the prc and have to believe there is more to be had.
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Short answer - yes - >3000 FPS from a 22" barrel with factory ammo.
Longer answer - My friend has a 22" barreled Savage 6.5 Creed that I think he paid about $300 for at Walmart including a 3x9 Weaver scope. We went out to sight it in in preparation for a Montana antelope hunt this fall, with Hornady factory 120 grain GMX ammo. The box said the ammo would do 3050 FPS. The average for the groups we fired over my 35P was 3051 FPS! And none of the groups were more than 1 MOA. Right outta the box. Kind of makes all our rifle looney accuracy chasing seem kinda silly and expensive, doesn't it. At least it does to my buddy. He's a happy camper. Killed his goat with one shot on the first morning.
Cheers,
Rex
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ShortMagFan,
Those articles were in one of the Wolfe Publishing special editions this year, which feature both new articles and reprints from older issues of RIFLE and HANDLOADER. Both of my articles were reprint. Kinda wish I'd kept that rifle, but have to keep experimenting, which means some rifles get sacrificed for others.
Watch out! This year my schedule for HANDLOADER includes such cutting-edge rounds as the .32-40 and .40-65! MD, Now we’re talking - I bet with all the new technology you were getting nearly 3000fps with these cartridges?😁. Seriously - looking forward to those articles have both and have really only tinkered with them so far. PennDog
Last edited by PennDog; 12/28/19.
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Watch out! This year my schedule for HANDLOADER includes such cutting-edge rounds as the .32-40 and .40-65! Well, I'm not gonna sell my .270 or my .260 to buy one, if that's what you and Hornady are tryin' to do...
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Easy to do with a 7mm-08.
Just sayin’.
P
Obey lawful commands. Video interactions. Hold bad cops accountable. Problem solved.
~Molɔ̀ːn Labé Skýla~
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Campfire 'Bwana
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i'll just stick with my 300rum.
God bless Texas-----------------------
Old 300
I will remain what i am until the day I die- A HUNTER......Sitting Bull
Its not how you pick the booger..
but where you put it !!
Roger V Hunter
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Could chase 100fps or just learn to hunt a little closer.
Quit giving in inch by inch then looking back to lament the mile behind ya and wonder how to preserve those few feet left in front of ya. They'll never stop until they're stopped. That's a fact.
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Could chase 100fps or just learn to hunt a little closer.
BS. Regardless how ‘close you hunt, shots DON’T always show up close. Preparation. Jerry
jwall- *** 3100 guy***
A Flat Trajectory is Never a Handicap
Speed is Trajectory's Friend !!
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Could chase 100fps or just learn to hunt a little closer.
BS. Regardless how ‘close you hunt, shots DON’T always show up close. Preparation. Jerry Good point. Cause 100fps makes the difference.
Quit giving in inch by inch then looking back to lament the mile behind ya and wonder how to preserve those few feet left in front of ya. They'll never stop until they're stopped. That's a fact.
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According to the nosler website it is very realistic.
"Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes. That way, you'll be a mile from them, and you'll have their shoes."
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For what it’s worth, I could only get 2800 FPS from my 20” barrel and the 120 gr BTs. So I went to 100 gr BTs just to see how they’d work on deer and hogs, and I got 3000 FPS from that load. And it killed deer and hogs every bit as well as the 120’s, at least as far as I could tell. Since then I’ll switch between the loads when the mood strikes me. Not much difference in trajectories.
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603,
I lived in Idaho in the early 1980’s. Only centerfire rifle I had was a 6mm. Killed mule deer, elk, coyotes, a couple white tails, and a slew of jack rabbits. Used mostly Sierra 85gr HPBT except on elk. There I used Nosler partitions, don’t remember if 95 or 100 gr.
These days, I want a little more bullet weight. I had a 6.5 Swede and stepped up to 120gr. If I can get target speed for the Creedmoor, then I will retire my 6mm and use 6.5 100gr to take its place.
Got it covered with the 22 LR, 30-06, and 12 gauge.
The rest are just for fun.
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Crock,
I learned to hunt with a shepherd’s sling. I went from there to a Crossman pellet rifle shooting BBs. I might know a thing or two about getting close, as in real close. (Check out David in the Bible if you don’t know what a shepherd’s sling is.)
As an engineer, I tend to set design parameters for a project. My new rifle projects get the same treatment.
I have read post after post after post on 24CF that recommend minimum impact velocities of 2000 fps impact velocity with mono metal bullets. I want to shoot up to 450 yards, so my parameters for the bullets are 2000 fps at that range. My ballistic software computes 3005 fps for BC of .412 at sea level and 30F.
If the 6.5 CM can do that, then my next rifle will be a Creedmoor. If not, then a PRC.
I really appreciate the replies to this thread from people’s experiences. They are valuable to me.
Your posts have no value in regards to my question.
Got it covered with the 22 LR, 30-06, and 12 gauge.
The rest are just for fun.
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If you are Ok with the 100 gr Ballistic Tips, your 3000 FPS target should be easily doable. I use IMR 4064 behind the 100’s and R17 behind the 120’s. I forget what the BC is for the 100’s, but think it’s below .400.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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I have had the impression that the primary reason for the 6.5 CM's existence was to be a better vehicle for launching longer/heavier VLD bullets in short action rifles.
If you're going to reload and higher velocity is an important consideration, why not just go with a case that has more capacity, like the 6.5-284 or 6.5-06 or a variety of other options that are available to folks who load their own?
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The 127 LRX runs 2920 out of a 21” barrel using RL16. That will get you 2023fps at 475yds at sea level.
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prm,
Thanks for the info, I was hoping to hear from you. I’ve followed your 6.5 CM and 338 Federal posts.
I have made a list of 24CF posts of 6.5 CM loads. It seems most people are working with the 140gr range high BC bullets. Not much out there on 120gr.
It seems some people are getting results in my goal range. I have an eye on the 127 LRX, yet I have a bunch of 120s to shoot up first.
Have you done any work with RL16 and 120gr?
Got it covered with the 22 LR, 30-06, and 12 gauge.
The rest are just for fun.
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260,
Good comment about just going to a bigger case. I have been leaning towards the PRC, but Mule Deer’s reprinted article with a 26” Ruger listed 120gr in the 3000+ fps range. So I decided to ask the question here. My thought is if several members here are getting that in 24” or 26” barrels, then I think it is worth giving the Creedmoor a try.
I have much better luck with short actions. I have M70 EW rifles in 30-06, 270, 308, and 7mm-08. The 308 and 7mm-08 are much easier to get fixed 6x42 scopes mounted to suit my eyes than the long actions. Our Redneck has made some negative comments on getting the PRC to feed well in the M70. I really respect his opinion so as much as I like the M70 EW short actions, I think that a Ruger LRH would be the way to go in PRC.
Got it covered with the 22 LR, 30-06, and 12 gauge.
The rest are just for fun.
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For my purposes, I want to shoot 120 grain mono metal bullets in a 6.5 CM. Is that realistic? What barrel length is needed, 22”, 24”, or 26”? This is for a new bolt rifle or a rebarreled M70. I don’t own a 6.5 CM at this time.
Recommended powder, primer, and brass also appreciated.
I have a bunch of 120 gr TTSX, ETip, and GMX leftover from a 6.5 M96 Swede... Sure Get a big jug of RL-26 and a long skinny tamping bar, and go to town--and then pretend we're not running 70K psi. It's what everybody is doing with 140 grainers and heavier. On a more helpful note, Hodgdon's is claiming 3000fps with StaBALL with a Hornady A-Max and 24" bbl. Now that I think of it, I have a friend who says he's trying StaBALL and 120gr TSX in a 20" custom bbl M788. I can call him tomorrow.
Casey
Not being married to any particular political party sure makes it a lot easier to look at the world more objectively...
Having said that, MAGA.
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The new Hodgdon loading manual shows a staBALL 6.5 max load at 3,004 fps. Details:
Hornady brass
24" barrel
Federal 210M LRMP
1-8" twist
Max load of 45.3 grains and a COAL of 2.670"
I doubt that velocity is obtainable unless you go longer with your barrel.
There are 2 rules to success:
1. Never tell everything that you know.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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260,
Good comment about just going to a bigger case. I have been leaning towards the PRC, but Mule Deer’s reprinted article with a 26” Ruger listed 120gr in the 3000+ fps range. So I decided to ask the question here. My thought is if several members here are getting that in 24” or 26” barrels, then I think it is worth giving the Creedmoor a try.
I have much better luck with short actions. I have M70 EW rifles in 30-06, 270, 308, and 7mm-08. The 308 and 7mm-08 are much easier to get fixed 6x42 scopes mounted to suit my eyes than the long actions. Our Redneck has made some negative comments on getting the PRC to feed well in the M70. I really respect his opinion so as much as I like the M70 EW short actions, I think that a Ruger LRH would be the way to go in PRC. The Hodgdon site lists 7 loads for a 120 grain bullet between 2,903 and 3,004 fps that are running at between 59,800 and 61,500 PSI from a 24" barrel. I can see where a longer barrel and/or a little more powder would bump those numbers up a little to hit your goal of at least 3,000 fps of muzzle velocity. If the 6.5 CM doesn't take you to where you want to go, there are options available to the handloader. I have wondered how a 6.5 SAUM would do within the COAL limits of a short action. I thought that when the SAUM and WSM cartridges were introduced that they would supersede the 284 as the cases of choice to maximize powder capacity in a short action, but they seem to have fallen into disfavor among wildcatters.
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Just get the PRC and be done with it, instead of agonizing over a cartridge with marginal case capacity for the vecity that you wantl
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
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I have wondered how a 6.5 SAUM would do within the COAL limits of a short action. I thought that when the SAUM and WSM cartridges were introduced that they would supersede the 284 as the cases of choice to maximize powder capacity in a short action, but they seem to have fallen into disfavor among wildcatters. My 6.5 Saum comfortably shoots the 129 grain ABLR a little over 3200 fps at a COAL of 2.825”. That’s the only bullet I’ve tried in it and I’ve enjoyed hunting it this fall and have killed 7 whitetails with it ranging from 30 to 200 yards Given my longest shot opportunity is under 450 I’m considering switching to the 120 ttsx as a I haven’t gotten exits on a couple of the (not particularly big) deer I’ve shot with the 129 ablr (though they all died)
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So based on my chrono showing the Hornady factory 120 GMX load hits its advertised 3050 FPS in a 22" barrel, do you folks think they are doing something exotic in loading practices for those rounds? Has anybody pulled a bullet on one to have a look at the powder? I don't have my buddy's rounds on hand to test it nor do I own a 6.5CM to justify buying some to look at. Seems like as handloaders, we normally count on exceeding factory ballistics, and this seems an odd case where we're struggling to even match them.
ShortRifleFan, I like your considered approach to deciding if the 6.5CM is enough to meet your parameters, and am not trying to hijack your thread with the above questions. It seems to me the simple answer to your original question is "yes" (based on the 120 GMX factory load) but I bet you, like me, are loath to use factory ammo? I have never taken an animal with factory ammo (except .22LR) and most of my rifles have never even fired a factory round. So I get it. But one of the great points Mule Deer once made about the 6.5CM is that it seems to be the lucky coincidence of a very inherently accurate cartridge for which there is also a lot of excellent factory ammo available. This sure suits my buddy who doesn't handload and just wants to go hunting.
Cheers,
Rex
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I have wondered how a 6.5 SAUM would do within the COAL limits of a short action. I thought that when the SAUM and WSM cartridges were introduced that they would supersede the 284 as the cases of choice to maximize powder capacity in a short action, but they seem to have fallen into disfavor among wildcatters. My 6.5 Saum comfortably shoots the 129 grain ABLR a little over 3200 fps at a COAL of 2.825”. That’s the only bullet I’ve tried in it and I’ve enjoyed hunting it this fall and have killed 7 whitetails with it ranging from 30 to 200 yards Given my longest shot opportunity is under 450 I’m considering switching to the 120 ttsx as a I haven’t gotten exits on a couple of the (not particularly big) deer I’ve shot with the 129 ablr (though they all died) Again not wanting to hijack SRF's thread but how did those 129 ABLRs that failed to exit hold up? I have heard many reports of these being quite fragile. I got 200 of them in .270 to play with before I heard about the "failures", just assuming they would hold together like a normal accubond - I've yet to hunt with them. Thanks, Rex
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So based on my chrono showing the Hornady factory 120 GMX load hits its advertised 3050 FPS in a 22" barrel, do you folks think they are doing something exotic in loading practices for those rounds? Has anybody pulled a bullet on one to have a look at the powder? I don't have my buddy's rounds on hand to test it nor do I own a 6.5CM to justify buying some to look at. Seems like as handloaders, we normally count on exceeding factory ballistics, and this seems an odd case where we're struggling to even match them. Looking at powder doesn't definitively identify it. It's likely a powder blend not available in canisters.
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Campfire Kahuna
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I would guess some 6.5 Creedmoor shooters are using lighter bullets at higher velocities than the heavier, high-BC bullets the cartridge was original designed for because of the tendency of even "affordable" 6.5 Creedmoor factory rifles to be very accurate, and and the traditional obsession with high muzzle velocity. Not everybody buys a 6.5 Creedmoor these days to shoot 500+ yards.
I would also guess they do this with Creedmoors rather than 6.5 PRCs or 6.5-.284s or 6.5-06s because of those affordable, accurate factory rifles--especially compared to custom rifles. Longer barrel life and lighter recoil might be other reasons.
But apparently that's not the Campfire Way, at least for some members.
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.”
John Steinbeck
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I have a 260, and would never have bought it, but my wife wanted a pig gun and I had a buddy that practically gave me a Ruger Compact in 260. She changed her mind on shooting pigs, so I took it over and really liked the cartridge. I never once considered needing high BC heavy for caliber bullets. For hunting, I didn’t need that, so I went with the 120 gr Ballistic Tip. Then, along came the 6.5 CM, with a case designed to better handle the high BC bullets. Well, the fact that it will better handle the high BC bullets didn’t change my needs or thinking at all. Fact is, if you aren’t shooting long range, but are a hunter, why shoot slow heavy bullets? I grew up with a 270 and 130 gr Nosler bullets at 3000 FPS, and that trajectory is hard wired into my brain after 40 years with the 270. So that’s what I wanted from the 260, and a 120 gr BT gets me close in my 20” barrel. That said, I did mention earlier that I sometimes use the 100 gr Ballistic Tip, and that bullet hits like a lightening bolt, and I’m not sure there’s any advantage in using the 120 gr version. And recoil is very low.
If I just had to have a 140 gr bullet, I’d go back to my 270 (@ 3000 FPS).
Just my opinion...
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Before I'd use 120gr bullet's in a 6.5, I'd use 120gr in a 25-06! The standard 6.5's have little if any advantage with their light bullet's over a 25-06. On the other hand, nobody I know of makes either a 130gr or 140gr bullet for the 257 cal! Difference between the 120gr 6.5 and 130+gr 6.5 is velocity. The higher velocity could make the light bullet fail. If you simply want to get to 3000fps, my 25-06 shoot's 117gr Hornady's at 3079fps measured! Stepping up in cal so you can drive a light bullet faster doesn't register with me. My favorite bullet in my 6.5x06 and my 6.5x55 is the 140gr bullet but I do have fit's about the 129gr bullet now and then.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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I would guess some 6.5 Creedmoor shooters are using lighter bullets at higher velocities than the heavier, high-BC bullets the cartridge was original designed for because of the tendency of even "affordable" 6.5 Creedmoor factory rifles to be very accurate, and and the traditional obsession with high muzzle velocity. Not everybody buys a 6.5 Creedmoor these days to shoot 500+ yards.
I would also guess they do this with Creedmoors rather than 6.5 PRCs or 6.5-.284s or 6.5-06s because of those affordable, accurate factory rifles--especially compared to custom rifles. Longer barrel life and lighter recoil might be other reasons.
But apparently that's not the Campfire Way, at least for some members. I, mostly, load my own ammo in search of accuracy and don't shoot anything except the occasional pdog at ranges over 1/4 mile or so. Within those parameters, I would have been just as well served by my accumulation of 6.5mm bore rifles chambered in 260, 6.5x55, 256 Newton, 6.5-284, and 6.5 REM MAG as by the 6.5 CM. While I've never needed a rifle chambered in 6.5 CM, I'm interested in shooting and being something of a gear guy, I'm usually willing to try something new/different. An undisputed advantage that the 6.5 CM has over my other 6.5mm bore rifles is that there is so much good factory ammo available and so many potentially accurate rifles to choose from all along the price spectrum. I've shot a lot of 6.5mm component bullets in the 95 to 160 grain range over the past 30+ years and have come to like the balance of accuracy/penetration/velocity of bullets in the 120 to 130 grain range, with particular favorites being the 129 grain Hornadys and 130 grain AB for hunting medium game. Please note that I am not in any way suggesting that my way of doing things is either the best way or the only way, just that it is the way that has worked the best for me within my parameters.
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I have wondered how a 6.5 SAUM would do within the COAL limits of a short action. I thought that when the SAUM and WSM cartridges were introduced that they would supersede the 284 as the cases of choice to maximize powder capacity in a short action, but they seem to have fallen into disfavor among wildcatters. My 6.5 Saum comfortably shoots the 129 grain ABLR a little over 3200 fps at a COAL of 2.825”. That’s the only bullet I’ve tried in it and I’ve enjoyed hunting it this fall and have killed 7 whitetails with it ranging from 30 to 200 yards Given my longest shot opportunity is under 450 I’m considering switching to the 120 ttsx as a I haven’t gotten exits on a couple of the (not particularly big) deer I’ve shot with the 129 ablr (though they all died) Again not wanting to hijack SRF's thread but how did those 129 ABLRs that failed to exit hold up? I have heard many reports of these being quite fragile. I got 200 of them in .270 to play with before I heard about the "failures", just assuming they would hold together like a normal accubond - I've yet to hunt with them. Thanks, Rex Did not do an autopsy as the deer went straight to the processor without even being gutted. It is worth noting though that I’ve caught other bullets before and found them under the hide on the off side of the deer. Tried to do that in these cases and could not locate the bullet (2 of the 7 - the other 5 exited). Does that mean it was fragmented or didn’t make it there? I have no idea. The deer were very dead so clearly it worked. But it was enough for me to think about a tougher bullet given my land and maximum shot of under 450 yards and most under 250. I’m looking forward to trying the 120 TTSX at warp speed
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Quote....
I’m looking forward to trying the 120 TTSX at warp speed
You and me both Brother
Forgive My Sins Jesus, Save My Soul
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It can surely be done. 123 gr. Scenars at 3150 fps. with superformance powder with a 24" barrel.
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DonFischer,
I respect your opinion yet think differently. My 270 spits 130 and 140 gr bullets at my goal 450 yard velocity with no strain at all. My 308 is no slouch with the 130 TTSX either. Both of these perform with 22” barrels. So I don’t see much reason for another rifle to duplicate these older hands.
I see the 6.5 mm as the bigger brother to the 243/6 mm/250-3000/257 class. I find it most interesting when throwing 100 gr bullets at 243 speeds and 120 gr bullets near 25-06 speeds. In my mind, the 6.5 mm can replace its smaller siblings. That’s where my interest lies, at least with 120 gr monos. As prm posted above, the 127 LRX is not very far out from here.
Got it covered with the 22 LR, 30-06, and 12 gauge.
The rest are just for fun.
NRA Life Member
Never let the truth get in the way of a good story.
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Tikka 7mm-08
120 NBT
3126 FPS
Little bitty groups.
P
Obey lawful commands. Video interactions. Hold bad cops accountable. Problem solved.
~Molɔ̀ːn Labé Skýla~
Member #547
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OP
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All,
Thank you all for the feedback. My takeaway from this is there are max ‘book’ loads that reach my goals in 24” barrels, a factory GMX that is on goal, and a couple of suggested loads that get there. It seems 3000 fps is reasonable, so I am going to get a 6.5 CM.
As a recap, here are the book loads you all pointed out that nominally meet my 120 gr muzzle velocity goal with 24” barrel:
Alliant - RL16
Hogdon - StaBALL 6.5
Nosler - H4350, RL17, Hunter
So 5 different powders. There were several others very close.
As my username suggests, I like short rifles. Looks like I need to make an exception for this project. For engineering margin, I’m going with a 26” barrel.
Thanks again for your support!
Got it covered with the 22 LR, 30-06, and 12 gauge.
The rest are just for fun.
NRA Life Member
Never let the truth get in the way of a good story.
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Campfire Ranger
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I will take the better BC 6.5 120 and keep the option of the 140s open. Tikka 7mm-08
120 NBT
3126 FPS
Little bitty groups.
P
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To the OP..Yes
Ruger American 22" barrel
120gr. TTSX
WLRM
44.6gr RL17
2997fps
Extremely accurate.
Your Every Liberal vote promotes Socialism and is an
attack on the Second Amendment. You will suffer the consequences.
GOA,Idaho2AIAlliance,AmericanFirearmsAssociation,IdahoTrappersAssociation,FoundationForWildlifeManagement ID and MT.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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All,
Thank you all for the feedback. My takeaway from this is there are max ‘book’ loads that reach my goals in 24” barrels, a factory GMX that is on goal, and a couple of suggested loads that get there. It seems 3000 fps is reasonable, so I am going to get a 6.5 CM.
As a recap, here are the book loads you all pointed out that nominally meet my 120 gr muzzle velocity goal with 24” barrel:
Alliant - RL16
Hogdon - StaBALL 6.5
Nosler - H4350, RL17, Hunter
So 5 different powders. There were several others very close.
As my username suggests, I like short rifles. Looks like I need to make an exception for this project. For engineering margin, I’m going with a 26” barrel.
Thanks again for your support! The Savage 10 FP would be an inexpensive way to dip you toe into a 26" 6.5 CM. Generally more accurate out of the box than a 700 ADL Varmint. BPS/Cabela's regularly puts these on sale for around $400.
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All,
Thank you all for the feedback. My takeaway from this is there are max ‘book’ loads that reach my goals in 24” barrels, a factory GMX that is on goal, and a couple of suggested loads that get there. It seems 3000 fps is reasonable, so I am going to get a 6.5 CM.
As a recap, here are the book loads you all pointed out that nominally meet my 120 gr muzzle velocity goal with 24” barrel:
Alliant - RL16
Hogdon - StaBALL 6.5
Nosler - H4350, RL17, Hunter
So 5 different powders. There were several others very close.
As my username suggests, I like short rifles. Looks like I need to make an exception for this project. For engineering margin, I’m going with a 26” barrel.
Thanks again for your support! Your goal of 3000fps in 6.5CM w/ 120 TTSX is easily done w/ a 22" or 23" barrel. Especially if you are talking about having a rifle built w/ a custom barrel. As has already been suggested, look hard at the 127LRX - 2950 is easily achieved w/ a 23" barrel and it's higher BC means it retains more velovity at 450yds than the 120TTSX started at higher velocity. LRX's seem to open easier than the TTSX's also. David
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I will take the better BC 6.5 120 and keep the option of the 140s open. Tikka 7mm-08
120 NBT
3126 FPS
Little bitty groups.
P 6.5 120 BT BC is .458, max velocity per Nosler (24” barrel) is 3068 7mm 120 BT BC is .417, max velocity per Nosler (26” barrel) is 3262, I get 3126 from a 22 7/16” barrel. Do you find a difference of .041 to be significant? 6.5 140 BT BC is .509, max velocity per Nosler is 2731 7mm 140 BT is .485, max velocity per Nosler is 2953, I get 2890 from a 22 7/16” barrel. Do you find a difference of .024 to be significant? It would be interesting to run the numbers and verify the distance at which the better BC catches up with the faster bullet. I’ll bet it’s farther than you think. P
Obey lawful commands. Video interactions. Hold bad cops accountable. Problem solved.
~Molɔ̀ːn Labé Skýla~
Member #547
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Plus, I can use a 150 grain bullet, Hornady ELD-X, at 2790, BC .574 for really long shots.
P
Obey lawful commands. Video interactions. Hold bad cops accountable. Problem solved.
~Molɔ̀ːn Labé Skýla~
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But the question was about shooting 6.5 bullets. A 7-08 doesn’t shoot them very well.
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Haha, don’t cherry pick now. The 6.5 rules the 140s.
If you like your 7-08, keep your 7-08. But the 6.5 Creedmoor can do what it does and more.
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ShortRifleFan: The Sturm Ruger Company offers a 6.5 Creedmoor Rifle (heavy barrel, stainless) with a 28" (twenty eight inch!) barrel.
You should easily and safely attain that speed with that factory Rifle and that weight bullet.
One of my close friends has one of these "28 inchers" "on order", right now and should take possession within a month.
Good luck in safely attaining your arbitrary goal.
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy
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Last edited by DanBrothers; 12/30/19.
Forgive My Sins Jesus, Save My Soul
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Plus, I can use a 150 grain bullet, Hornady ELD-X, at 2790, BC .574 for really long shots.
P Run a 6.5 147 ELDM @ 2700, .697 BC up against that load. It should be interesting.
It is irrelevant what you think. What matters is the TRUTH.
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Haha, don’t cherry pick now. The 6.5 rules the 140s.
If you like your 7-08, keep your 7-08. But the 6.5 Creedmoor can do what it does and more. Not trying to get in a pi$$ing match, I’m a 7mm-08 homer, but how significant is the difference? Especially with the 140s. On paper it looks like a slightly better BC going quite a bit slower. Edit to add: I went to Hornady’s online ballistics calculator. Based on the inputs from my earlier post, the 6.5 never catches up (out to 1,000 yards, at least) to the 7mm-08. Unless I’m missing something, which is eminently possible. P
Obey lawful commands. Video interactions. Hold bad cops accountable. Problem solved.
~Molɔ̀ːn Labé Skýla~
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P,
I have read and enjoyed your 7mm-08 posts & photos here on 24CF. I had a M7 7mm-08 some years ago, it was so accurate with factory ammo that I never reloaded for it. I took a long & hard look at 120s. Have a M70 EW in the caliber now, but never got around to shooting it. Then I took a job in mainland China for 6 1/2 years. Have been back a year now and am getting back into shooting.
I was thinking about working up the 120 TTSX in 7mm-08, but before I got there, I saw John's 6.5 CM article in Rifle Special Edition (14 different 6.5 mm calibers). And remembered that I have a whole bunch of 120s to shoot up...in 6.5 mm.
So now the M70 is on the block as a donor. How fickle us loonies are...
Got it covered with the 22 LR, 30-06, and 12 gauge.
The rest are just for fun.
NRA Life Member
Never let the truth get in the way of a good story.
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Heresy.
Betrayal.
Insouciance. (Not really, it’s just that no one uses that word.)
Treason.
Steak-sauce user on ribeye.
P
Obey lawful commands. Video interactions. Hold bad cops accountable. Problem solved.
~Molɔ̀ːn Labé Skýla~
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The 147 passes the 150eldx before 500yds.
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I guess, but a .270 Winchester (or a .280 Remington) with a 150 grain Nosler Partition will kill everything walking out to as far as most of us should be shooting at game. I think a lot of this ultra long range stuff is madness. If you've never shot over 500 yrds, next time you're out at a range just pick out a target you know to be 500 + yards and think about shooting at it. Only a few can do that ethicly.
Last edited by Filaman; 12/30/19.
What goes up must come down, what goes around comes around, there's no free lunch. Trump's comin' back, get over it!
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The 147 passes the 150eldx before 500yds. ELDM vs Eldx
Obey lawful commands. Video interactions. Hold bad cops accountable. Problem solved.
~Molɔ̀ːn Labé Skýla~
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Campfire 'Bwana
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All,
Thank you all for the feedback. My takeaway from this is there are max ‘book’ loads that reach my goals in 24” barrels, a factory GMX that is on goal, and a couple of suggested loads that get there. It seems 3000 fps is reasonable, so I am going to get a 6.5 CM.
As a recap, here are the book loads you all pointed out that nominally meet my 120 gr muzzle velocity goal with 24” barrel:
Alliant - RL16
Hogdon - StaBALL 6.5
Nosler - H4350, RL17, Hunter
So 5 different powders. There were several others very close.
As my username suggests, I like short rifles. Looks like I need to make an exception for this project. For engineering margin, I’m going with a 26” barrel.
Thanks again for your support! It should be easy peasy to hit 3k with a 24" barrel.
Cartridge : 6.5 Creedmoor Hornady
Bullet : .264, 120, Nosler BalTip 26120
Useable Case Capaci: 49.496 grain H2O = 3.214 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 2.800 inch = 71.12 mm
Barrel Length : 24.0 inch = 609.6 mm
Predicted Data for Indicated Charges of the Following Powders.
Matching Maximum Pressure: 62250 psi, or 429 MPa
or a maximum loading ratio or filling of 108 %
These calculations refer to your specified settings in QuickLOAD 'Cartridge Dimensions' window.
C A U T I O N : any load listed can result in a powder charge that falls below minimum suggested
loads or exceeds maximum suggested loads as presented in current handloading manuals. Understand
that all of the listed powders can be unsuitable for the given combination of cartridge, bullet
and gun. Actual load order can vary, depending upon lot-to-lot powder and component variations.
USE ONLY FOR COMPARISON !
30 loads produced a Loading Ratio below user-defined minimum of 60%. These powders have been skipped.
Powder type Filling/Loading Ratio Charge Charge Vel. Prop.Burnt P max P muzz B_Time
% Grains Gramm fps % psi psi ms
--------------------------------- -----------------------------------------------------------------
Alliant Reloder-26 *C 108.0 53.0 3.43 3185 100.0 60187 11740 1.108 ! Near Maximum !
ReloadSwiss RS 60 *T 99.4 47.6 3.08 3156 100.0 62250 10531 1.089 ! Near Maximum !
ReloadSwiss RS 70 *C 105.5 51.3 3.32 3151 99.3 62250 11393 1.088 ! Near Maximum !
Elcho 17 98.4 47.1 3.05 3134 100.0 62250 10470 1.096 ! Near Maximum !
Alliant Reloder-17 *T 98.4 47.1 3.05 3134 100.0 62250 10470 1.096 ! Near Maximum !
Norma MRP *C 108.0 51.4 3.33 3127 98.6 58996 11653 1.120 ! Near Maximum !
Alliant Reloder-16 *C *T 103.5 46.0 2.98 3122 100.0 62250 10468 1.092 ! Near Maximum !
Somchem S365 105.5 47.9 3.10 3103 100.0 62250 9989 1.108 ! Near Maximum !
ReloadSwiss RS 62 102.0 48.7 3.16 3102 99.9 62250 10570 1.114 ! Near Maximum !
PB Clermont PCL 518 104.0 49.0 3.17 3096 99.3 62250 10769 1.104 ! Near Maximum !
PB Clermont PCL 511 99.9 48.5 3.15 3095 99.5 62250 10712 1.105 ! Near Maximum !
Ramshot Hunter 103.2 48.6 3.15 3093 99.5 62250 10696 1.105 ! Near Maximum !
Alliant Reloder-19 *C 107.7 49.1 3.18 3088 97.7 62250 10905 1.100 ! Near Maximum !
Winchester 760 97.4 47.0 3.05 3087 99.0 62250 10690 1.108 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H414 97.4 47.0 3.05 3087 99.0 62250 10690 1.108 ! Near Maximum !
IMR 7828 SSC 108.0 50.6 3.28 3086 95.7 59783 11290 1.109 ! Near Maximum !
ADI AR 2209 106.9 48.5 3.14 3084 97.5 62250 10811 1.094 ! Near Maximum !
Norma URP *C 102.7 46.4 3.00 3076 100.0 62250 10295 1.112 ! Near Maximum !
Bofors RP19 ~approximation 102.7 46.4 3.00 3076 100.0 62250 10292 1.112 ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N550 *C 99.7 46.5 3.01 3075 99.9 62250 10422 1.117 ! Near Maximum !
Accurate 4350 102.0 46.5 3.02 3073 100.0 62250 10270 1.127 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon CFE223 *C 93.0 46.3 3.00 3070 100.0 62250 10201 1.109 ! Near Maximum !
Bofors RP14 ~approximation 108.0 49.3 3.19 3067 97.5 61370 10783 1.108 ! Near Maximum !
Raufoss RA4 105.3 48.1 3.11 3060 97.4 62250 10591 1.102 ! Near Maximum !
Bofors RP4 ~approximation 105.3 48.1 3.11 3060 97.4 62250 10591 1.102 ! Near Maximum !
Norma 204 *C 102.0 48.1 3.11 3060 97.4 62250 10591 1.102 ! Near Maximum !
IMR 4831 107.8 47.1 3.05 3057 100.0 62250 10070 1.120 ! Near Maximum !
SNPE Vectan SP 11 96.0 45.2 2.93 3055 100.0 62250 9901 1.112 ! Near Maximum !
Somchem S385 107.9 49.8 3.23 3052 98.5 62250 10459 1.119 ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N560 *C 108.0 50.3 3.26 3052 94.6 56042 11502 1.146 ! Near Maximum !
ReloadSwiss RS 52 93.5 44.0 2.85 3049 100.0 62250 9638 1.118 ! Near Maximum !
Ramshot Big Game 92.9 45.1 2.93 3049 100.0 62250 9799 1.112 ! Near Maximum !
IMR 4895 92.5 42.2 2.74 3044 100.0 62250 9817 1.120 ! Near Maximum !
ADI AR 2213 108.0 49.8 3.23 3043 95.2 58219 11080 1.123 ! Near Maximum !
Bofors RP4 NT *C ~approximation 102.9 47.6 3.09 3041 98.7 62250 10282 1.115 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon Hybrid 100V 105.5 46.6 3.02 3037 100.0 62250 9466 1.111 ! Near Maximum !
Alliant Reloder-15 *C 93.3 42.6 2.76 3035 100.0 62250 9787 1.120 ! Near Maximum !
Raufoss RA11 93.3 42.6 2.76 3035 100.0 62250 9787 1.120 ! Near Maximum !
Bofors RP11 ~approximation 93.3 42.6 2.76 3035 100.0 62250 9787 1.120 ! Near Maximum !
Winchester Supreme 780 105.8 50.9 3.30 3033 97.4 62250 10298 1.105 ! Near Maximum !
Norma 203B *C 93.8 42.8 2.77 3032 100.0 62250 9705 1.121 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H4831 SC *T 108.0 49.8 3.23 3031 95.2 61105 10547 1.109 ! Near Maximum !
Alliant Reloder-22 *C 108.0 49.8 3.23 3029 96.6 55328 11180 1.157 ! Near Maximum !
Raufoss RA15 *C 108.0 49.8 3.23 3029 96.6 55328 11180 1.157 ! Near Maximum !
Bofors RP5/NP ~approximation 108.0 49.8 3.23 3029 96.6 55328 11180 1.157 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H380 94.6 44.1 2.86 3026 99.9 62250 9913 1.124 ! Near Maximum !
Lovex S070 102.0 46.1 2.98 3025 99.0 62250 10131 1.125 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon BL-C2 88.2 43.9 2.85 3025 100.0 62250 9562 1.124 ! Near Maximum !
Accurate MAGPRO 108.0 52.4 3.39 3023 92.5 55072 11422 1.160 ! Near Maximum !
Norma 203 old 95.1 43.9 2.84 3023 100.0 62250 9551 1.133 ! Near Maximum !
Bofors RP3 95.1 43.9 2.84 3023 100.0 62250 9551 1.133 ! Near Maximum !
Rottweil R904 106.0 47.7 3.09 3022 96.4 62250 10262 1.107 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H4350 *T 104.7 46.7 3.03 3021 98.4 62250 10058 1.110 ! Near Maximum !
IMR 4350 102.8 46.7 3.02 3021 98.5 62250 10043 1.110 ! Near Maximum !
PB Clermont PCL 516 91.2 44.3 2.87 3018 99.8 62250 9794 1.116 ! Near Maximum !
Ramshot Wild Boar 88.6 43.2 2.80 3017 100.0 62250 9556 1.117 ! Near Maximum !
IMR 4320 95.3 42.8 2.77 3017 100.0 62250 9427 1.106 ! Near Maximum !
Rottweil R903 97.3 43.9 2.85 3017 100.0 62250 9471 1.133 ! Near Maximum !
Winchester 748 85.8 42.1 2.73 3017 100.0 62250 9232 1.118 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H4895 90.1 41.1 2.66 3016 100.0 62250 9478 1.120 ! Near Maximum !
Bofors RP7 NT *C ~approximation 96.5 44.4 2.88 3016 99.1 62250 9812 1.099 ! Near Maximum !
ADI AR 2206H 90.4 41.3 2.67 3015 100.0 62250 9535 1.120 ! Near Maximum !
Somchem S355 97.3 43.5 2.82 3011 100.0 62250 9480 1.128 ! Near Maximum !
Ramshot Magnum 108.0 53.7 3.48 3010 97.2 56493 10749 1.141 ! Near Maximum !
Elcho TR140 - preliminary data 94.2 44.4 2.88 3009 99.9 62250 9652 1.120 ! Near Maximum !
SNPE Vectan SP 9 91.1 42.9 2.78 3008 100.0 62250 9460 1.117 ! Near Maximum !
ReloadSwiss RS 50 94.5 44.8 2.91 3007 99.2 62250 9838 1.119 ! Near Maximum !
Lovex S065 100.8 45.0 2.91 3003 99.6 62250 9785 1.125 ! Near Maximum !
IMR 4451 Enduron *C*T 98.2 44.3 2.87 3002 98.8 62250 9867 1.110 ! Near Maximum !
Bofors RP7 99.4 44.5 2.89 2999 98.4 62250 9915 1.121 ! Near Maximum !
Rottweil R907 99.4 44.5 2.89 2999 98.4 62250 9915 1.121 ! Near Maximum !
Ramshot TAC *C 88.6 43.6 2.83 2998 99.7 62250 9690 1.117 ! Near Maximum !
IMR 4007 SSC 96.3 44.6 2.89 2998 98.4 62250 9908 1.121 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon VARGET *T 96.1 42.4 2.75 2997 100.0 62250 9440 1.111 ! Near Maximum !
ADI AR 2208 95.7 42.4 2.75 2997 100.0 62250 9440 1.111 ! Near Maximum !
SNPE Vectan SP 7 89.3 43.7 2.83 2997 99.8 62250 9566 1.126 ! Near Maximum !
PB Clermont PCL 507 *C 87.7 41.8 2.71 2994 100.0 62250 9190 1.119 ! Near Maximum !
Bofors RP3 NT *C ~approximation 98.2 44.5 2.88 2994 99.6 62250 9582 1.110 ! Near Maximum !
Somchem S341 89.4 43.9 2.84 2991 100.0 62250 9217 1.119 ! Near Maximum !
IMR 3031 92.8 39.6 2.56 2990 100.0 62250 8775 1.125 ! Near Maximum !
Somchem S321 86.1 42.3 2.74 2990 100.0 62250 9204 1.126 ! Near Maximum !
IMR 4064 96.6 41.7 2.70 2989 100.0 62250 9256 1.116 ! Near Maximum !
Lovex D073.6 90.2 42.4 2.75 2987 100.0 62250 8966 1.137 ! Near Maximum !
Accurate 2520 88.2 42.4 2.75 2987 100.0 62250 8966 1.137 ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N530 *C 87.0 39.9 2.59 2986 100.0 62250 9085 1.118 ! Near Maximum !
Lovex S062 94.4 41.9 2.71 2985 100.0 62250 9107 1.130 ! Near Maximum !
Somchem S361 104.7 50.9 3.30 2984 95.4 62250 10004 1.119 ! Near Maximum !
Accurate 4064 94.8 42.3 2.74 2982 100.0 62250 8955 1.154 ! Near Maximum !
IMR 8208 XBR 89.0 40.6 2.63 2978 100.0 62250 8995 1.118 ! Near Maximum !
IMR 4166 Enduron *C*T 97.3 42.5 2.75 2976 98.8 62250 9550 1.113 ! Near Maximum !
Norma 201 *C 91.5 40.8 2.65 2975 100.0 62250 9065 1.132 ! Near Maximum !
Ramshot X-Terminator *C 86.5 42.1 2.73 2969 100.0 62250 9108 1.120 ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N150 *C 102.5 44.1 2.86 2967 100.0 62250 8908 1.127 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H335 82.0 40.8 2.65 2967 100.0 62250 8786 1.123 ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N540 *C 93.1 42.9 2.78 2967 100.0 62250 8918 1.127 ! Near Maximum !
Rottweil R902 93.3 41.0 2.66 2966 100.0 62250 8952 1.134 ! Near Maximum !
SNPE Vectan SP 10 81.6 39.8 2.58 2965 100.0 62250 8751 1.124 ! Near Maximum !
IMR 4955 Enduron *C*T 108.0 47.9 3.11 2965 95.1 59263 10130 1.132 ! Near Maximum !
Norma 202 *C 90.8 40.8 2.64 2964 100.0 62250 8765 1.128 ! Near Maximum !
PB Clermont PCL 508 *C (PCL223) 81.6 39.9 2.58 2964 100.0 62250 8739 1.124 ! Near Maximum !
ReloadSwiss RS 40 85.2 39.6 2.57 2963 100.0 62250 8767 1.121 ! Near Maximum !
Accurate 2230 84.4 41.7 2.70 2960 100.0 62250 8862 1.131 ! Near Maximum !
Lovex D073.5 84.7 41.5 2.69 2957 100.0 62250 8757 1.140 ! Near Maximum !
Accurate 2460 84.5 41.5 2.69 2957 100.0 62250 8757 1.140 ! Near Maximum !
Bofors RP2 NT *C ~approximation 90.3 40.9 2.65 2956 100.0 62250 8862 1.117 ! Near Maximum !
ADI AR 2219 81.6 38.5 2.49 2955 100.0 62250 8531 1.120 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H322 86.9 38.5 2.49 2955 100.0 62250 8531 1.120 ! Near Maximum !
Accurate 2495 89.2 39.8 2.58 2954 100.0 62250 8616 1.161 ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N140 *C 97.6 42.8 2.77 2953 100.0 62250 8730 1.123 ! Near Maximum !
RL-17 should get you there without even breathing hard:
Cartridge : 6.5 Creedmoor Hornady
Bullet : .264, 120, Nosler BalTip 26120
Useable Case Capaci: 49.496 grain H2O = 3.214 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 2.800 inch = 71.12 mm
Barrel Length : 24.0 inch = 609.6 mm
Powder : Alliant Reloder-17 *T
Predicted data by increasing and decreasing the given charge,
incremented in steps of 1.064% of nominal charge.
CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads !
Step Fill. Charge Vel. Energy Pmax Pmuz Prop.Burnt B_Time
% % Grains fps ft.lbs psi psi % ms
-10.6 88 42.00 2812 2106 43215 9899 99.4 1.291
-09.6 89 42.50 2844 2155 44770 9979 99.6 1.270
-08.5 90 43.00 2876 2204 46385 10052 99.8 1.250
-07.4 91 43.50 2908 2253 48061 10119 99.9 1.230
-06.4 92 44.00 2940 2303 49801 10179 100.0 1.210
-05.3 93 44.50 2972 2353 51608 10232 100.0 1.191
-04.3 94 45.00 3003 2403 53484 10280 100.0 1.172
-03.2 95 45.50 3034 2453 55434 10326 100.0 1.153 ! Near Maximum !
-02.1 96 46.00 3065 2504 57461 10372 100.0 1.135 ! Near Maximum !
-01.1 97 46.50 3096 2554 59567 10417 100.0 1.117 ! Near Maximum !
+00.0 98 47.00 3127 2605 61756 10460 100.0 1.100 ! Near Maximum !
+01.1 99 47.50 3158 2657 64030 10503 100.0 1.083 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+02.1 100 48.00 3188 2708 66407 10545 100.0 1.066 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+03.2 101 48.50 3218 2760 68872 10586 100.0 1.049 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+04.3 102 49.00 3249 2812 71442 10626 100.0 1.033 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+05.3 103 49.50 3279 2864 74120 10665 100.0 1.017 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
W760/H414 will work well if you like old school ball powders. If you want to go modern, I'd try CFE223:
Cartridge : 6.5 Creedmoor Hornady
Bullet : .264, 120, Nosler BalTip 26120
Useable Case Capaci: 49.496 grain H2O = 3.214 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 2.800 inch = 71.12 mm
Barrel Length : 24.0 inch = 609.6 mm
Powder : Hodgdon CFE223 *C
Predicted data by increasing and decreasing the given charge,
incremented in steps of 1.064% of nominal charge.
CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads !
Step Fill. Charge Vel. Energy Pmax Pmuz Prop.Burnt B_Time
% % Grains fps ft.lbs psi psi % ms
-10.6 84 42.00 2808 2101 46327 9593 98.7 1.266
-09.6 85 42.50 2839 2148 47980 9682 98.9 1.246
-08.5 86 43.00 2870 2195 49684 9768 99.2 1.226
-07.4 87 43.50 2901 2243 51440 9848 99.4 1.207
-06.4 88 44.00 2932 2291 53252 9923 99.5 1.189
-05.3 89 44.50 2963 2339 55126 9994 99.7 1.171 ! Near Maximum !
-04.3 90 45.00 2993 2388 57067 10059 99.8 1.153 ! Near Maximum !
-03.2 91 45.50 3024 2437 59075 10120 99.9 1.135 ! Near Maximum !
-02.1 92 46.00 3054 2486 61155 10175 100.0 1.118 ! Near Maximum !
-01.1 93 46.50 3084 2535 63310 10224 100.0 1.101 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+00.0 94 47.00 3115 2585 65542 10269 100.0 1.085 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+01.1 95 47.50 3144 2635 67854 10312 100.0 1.068 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+02.1 96 48.00 3174 2685 70251 10354 100.0 1.052 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+03.2 97 48.50 3204 2735 72736 10396 100.0 1.037 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+04.3 98 49.00 3233 2785 75313 10436 100.0 1.022 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+05.3 99 49.50 3262 2836 77986 10476 100.0 1.007 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.
You cannot over estimate the unimportance of nearly everything. John Maxwell
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That is a true statement Filaman....
If you've never shot over 500 yrds, next time you're out at a range just pick out a target you know to be 500 + yards and think about shooting at it. Only a few can do that ethically.
Forgive My Sins Jesus, Save My Soul
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Filaman,
The 270 will shoot 110, 129, 130, 140, and 150 gr bullets fast enough to give 2000+ fps at 450 yards with a wide variety of powders in 22” barrels. Have one.
DanBrothers & Filaman,
I respect your comments but...
I grew up in Oklahoma then moved to western Kansas for my last 2 years of high school. The country was cut up into quarter sections, so there were lots of quarter-mile fences. Many were divided again, so we also had quite a few 220 yard fence rows. As a young boy, my dad’s best friend introduced me to the 6mm Remington. Coyotes tended to travel the fence lines away from the roads. As farmers/ranchers, we drove the country dirt roads and shot a lot of coyotes at the fence lines. Open country in most places with instant range finder fences.
Add 10 yards to make the numbers come out even in my ballistic software, and I come up with 450 yards as my range limit on living things. I know from personal experience that hitting a stationary coyote at 220 yards to a quarter mile takes lots of practice. So I might have years of experience at my personal range limit. There is much more to shooting than projectile ballistics.
While living in Idaho, I practiced regularly out to 600 yards. I’m getting hooked up to shoot paper out to 500 here in Georgia (my own land if the deal goes through).
I like to get close as possible before pulling the trigger. Gut shooting a coyote generally knocks them down for a second shot, if hit hard, they don’t go very far. But gut shoot a deer or larger, and they may change counties on you. It does not hurt to put parameters on one’s shooting in the form of impact velocity, range limits, the type of shot (rest, offhand, prone), and whether the game is moving or stationary. NONE of my personal parameters means that I’m not ethical or not experienced. My limit might be 450 yards but my normal shots might be 100 or less.
Many of us that ask questions on 24CF do so to gain from other people’s experiences. Just because we ask a question, it does NOT mean that we lack experience, lack ethics, don’t set reasonable range limits, or don’t practice shooting on a regular basis.
Got it covered with the 22 LR, 30-06, and 12 gauge.
The rest are just for fun.
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Never let the truth get in the way of a good story.
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Barnes 127 LRX @2915 over 47 grains of RL26. No pressure signs and excellent accuracy.
Last edited by sidepass; 12/31/19.
Never take life to seriously, after all ,no one gets out of it alive.
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sidepass,
Curious about what data source you use for RL26. User prm sent me a helpful link to the Alliant site, but I have only found loads for RL16 there. Didn't see RL26 on Barnes, Hogdon, or Nosler websites.
Got it covered with the 22 LR, 30-06, and 12 gauge.
The rest are just for fun.
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Was looking at Bergers loads for the 135 Classic hunter 49.8 grains of RL26 for 2977 and thought. Looked at some loads on the Creedmoor forum and found some loads. Could push for more but see no need at this point.
Last edited by sidepass; 12/31/19.
Never take life to seriously, after all ,no one gets out of it alive.
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Hey Shortrifle... I wasn't agreeing and pointing any fingers at anyone about their long range ability........ BUT.... I know, and do have a lot of friends that think they are instantly ready to shoot long range when they have never practiced it at a range... or even in the field. Most guys I know don't even have a good rangefinder.... nor a rifle/scope combo that would give them reliable shots at unknown yardage... but Filaman is right about his statement, because most shooters have not even tried very long ranges.... except for a few marked off ranges. I'm glad you are a long range shooter.... Heck... I'd love to get with you and shoot some stuff.... I only live a couple of hours from you. thanks...Dan
Forgive My Sins Jesus, Save My Soul
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DanBrothers,
Fair enough. Truth is, after going 6 1/2 years without shooting, I have no business shooting at game over a 100 yards until I get several months of consistent practice.
My real skills have deteriorated quite a bit. Been going to SHARPE Shooters range in Augusta. So far, I have not been impressing myself...
Got it covered with the 22 LR, 30-06, and 12 gauge.
The rest are just for fun.
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Never let the truth get in the way of a good story.
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SRF- I like to use Quickload data with higher pressure standards than SAAMI. For example, I see no reason at all not to use 62K as a safe, top pressure for the Creedmoor. I also have a 22" barrel, mine is a CA Mesa and I am just getting it set up. My identical Mesa/300WM I have been shooting awhile. It has a minimum spec chamber dimension ( fancy talk for "tight chamber" ) and I get top speeds around 1-2gr less than the QL data for it at 63K( 72 instead of 74 R17 for 3368fps) . So, here is what my friend sent me:
R26 52.9gr at 62K 22" 3136fps
VV N560 51.4 at 62K 3073fps
R17 46.7 at 62K 3061
So, this is the "goal". One's rifle may or may not get there. Depending upon your cases, you may or may not get that much in the case, that's OK, get what you can and don't worry about compressed loads. The negative effect is overrated (see long skinny tamping bar above :)) . You will have to use a long drop tube to charge, use an electric toothbrush to vibrate the case as it goes in. If possible, I like to start out all TTSX .10" from the lands. Your rifle may have a longer throat, so if its really long have at least a full caliber of bullet in the neck. Start out around 10% lower, come up in half grains until you begin to run into pressure signs and/or your target speed via chronograph. Then .2 gr either side if desired. Just saying "Yes, you can reach 3000/120 IF you go beyond the SAAMI 58K. Good luck to you.
Last edited by Jim_Knight; 01/04/20.
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That is a true statement Filaman....
If you've never shot over 500 yrds, next time you're out at a range just pick out a target you know to be 500 + yards and think about shooting at it. Only a few can do that ethically.
What does ethics have to do with thinking about shooting a target over 500 yards away at a range?
“There are some who can live without wild things and some who cannot.”
ALDO LEOPOLD
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Oh yeah, my data is for the Barnes 120 TTSX. They tend to go faster than some other makes due to less bore surface.
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I sat down to load some of my "R26" QL data at 62K. The load for 3100fps+, Ha, filled the case to the brim! I dropped down to the 3000fps load and seated a dummy round for my Mesa. To seat the Barnes 120TTSX at 2.70" ( it touches the rifling of my Mesa at 2.75) I had to compress it way more than I like to do! I set it aside and am going to use R17 first, see what that gets me. I just like to see what I can get from a current rifle, good cases and bullets. Sometimes I can get wonderful speeds and accuracy. Sometimes one but not the other, ha. I settle on accuracy #1.
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Another big attribute of the T3X is the generous mag box allows seating bullets way out there to alleviate huge amounts of "crunching" powder. My 147 ELDM load used 46.9g Rl26, and the base of the bullet barely goes below the case neck, and easily fits the detachable mag.
It is irrelevant what you think. What matters is the TRUTH.
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Shipped donor rifle to Redneck for a 26” 6.5CM barrel and some TLC.
Thanks to everyone for your input (even if I did not agree)!
Got it covered with the 22 LR, 30-06, and 12 gauge.
The rest are just for fun.
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Campfire Kahuna
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Was poking around a little, found that the 20 mm Vulcan projectile weighs about 1525 gr and has a MV of 3450 fps. The Creed no longer impresses me. Rumor has it that ElkhunterNM is going to be using one on jackrabbits next spring. 
I am..........disturbed.
Concerning the difference between man and the jackass: some observers hold that there isn't any. But this wrongs the jackass. -Twain
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I am heading to the loading room before spring comes to my part of Alaska and load up a bunch of the 127 grain Barnes LRX bullets for my Tikka T3X Superlite in 6.5 Creed. I had the barrel cut to 22 inches.
I have H4350, H4831, Hunter, H100 and RL 19 and I forget what else on the shelves. I think H4350 is the best for temps and Hunter not so good. I have never see a can of RL 26. I do wish RL 19 was better with temps, as the 30-06, .338 Winny and a .243 Winny shot well with that powder.
I am leaning towards a powder that handles temp swings as this rifle may be used for winter caribou and wolf hunts. It has a SWFA 3-9x42 FFP Mil scope on it and I will contact Barnes as to minimum required impact velocity for that bullet. Which I would think depends some what on whether bone is hit. Then I will limit my distance based on that info with a bit of a safety margin figured in.
I'm digging out MD's two Gun Gack books and cruising the internet for the best powder for my needs. That and sorting through the Campfire's info.
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I don't own a creed but the 6.5x55 thrives on R26, R23, & R16. Since there is only a 5 grain difference in case capacity these may serve you well in the Creedmoor. R26 gets iffy above 90 degrees but I doubt you will have issues with that in AK. R23 & 16 are very temperature resistant and sometimes gain velocity in colder weather. If you can't get these 4451 is worth a try. Barnes list the LRX down to 1,600 fps for expansion, but if you want more or fuller expansion then around 1,900 fps is more of a sure thing. I have only shot two deer with the Hornaday ELD-X but I believe their claims of 1,600 fps expansion threshold, they are a bit messy at close ranges but that is the trade off. Bergers not sure but the minimum velocity may be even lower, they are nasty at high speeds.
If you want a long range bullet don't pick a hard one and hope it will perform, this even inside 350 yards. I usually try to load a short and long range bullet and load them to the same point of aim, also usually a cheaper bullet paired with a more expensive one.
I wish that I could have gone on a high volume caribou hunt when I was in Unalakleet but I was always too busy guiding fisherman. In the bad old days the entire village would pool their permits and a couple of hunters would proceed to supply the village with their winters provisions.
"When you disarm the people, you commence to offend them and show that you distrust them either through cowardice or lack of confidence, and both of these opinions generate hatred." Niccolo Machiavelli
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Tejano,
My plans with this project are to shoot 120 mono metals fast enough to get expansion at my 450 yard range limit yet have a bullet that won’t blow up at close range. Up close I plan to use heart-lung. Farther out I’d switch to break some bone. There are always head & neck shots if conditions warrant. - Not original ideas of mine, I picked them up here on 24CF.
So I am thinking of one bullet to do everything on deer-class game with different shot placement based upon distance.
I think this is a realistic plan for this project, a 26” 6.5 CM built on a M70 by Redneck. Goal is enough muzzle velocity to get >= 2000 FPS @ 450 yards, around sea level with 120gr mono metals. From reading a great many posts here, most folks recommend 2000 FPS as the minimum impact velocity for expansion. That’s where I got my goal from, 24CF opinions.
My M96 has a 19” barrel and was a military rifle that someone sporterized very crudely. On it’s best day, it will do 2” groups at 100 yards. I started my kids on it years ago hunting from deer stands in the South Carolina low country. For some reason it liked IMR 3031 and Sierra 120gr the best at around 2350 FPS according to my chronograph. Killed well at 50 to 80 yards.
I bought up the tipped 120gr mono metals as they became available, thinking that I would try to them out at faster speed, but never got around to it.
Got it covered with the 22 LR, 30-06, and 12 gauge.
The rest are just for fun.
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41.8 of big game is pushing 130 game changers in my 6.5CM at 2900 +/-
Tikka with 24 “ barrel
I’d think 120s should be little faster.
I have 127LRX I plan on trying hunter and big game
Nosler reloading manual
120 ETip with 48.5 gr of Hunter at 3068
Last edited by Dre; 02/14/20.
All of them do something better than the 30-06, but none of them do everything as well.
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For my purposes, I want to shoot 120 grain mono metal bullets in a 6.5 CM. Is that realistic? What barrel length is needed, 22”, 24”, or 26”? This is for a new bolt rifle or a rebarreled M70. I don’t own a 6.5 CM at this time.
Recommended powder, primer, and brass also appreciated.
I have a bunch of 120 gr TTSX, ETip, and GMX leftover from a 6.5 M96 Swede... My hunting partner shoots a Kimber Mtn Ascent with 22" bbl. He is not a reloader, which isn't needed for the creed. We chrono'd his rifle with my magneto speed shooting the 120 GMX Superformance. Avg velocity is 2962 fps with a SD = 6.4. With that type of results why even attempt to reload just go hunt. That's what we did. Here is the link to the performance of that 120 GMX vs. CO muley buck: https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/galleries/14575484#Post14575484
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Has anyone tried the 120 Speer gold dots?
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SRF, I talked to Barnes the other day and found out most of the LRX bullets I use, will according to them, expand well down to about 1500 FPS. For both my daughter and my model 70 6.5 CMs the 127 LRX has proven to be a great choice.
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Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 1,801
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 1,801 |
My 6.5 Creed 18" barrel Kimber Adirondack averaged 2850 fps with Hornadys Full Boar 120 gr GMX, 2823 fps with Hornady 129 gr SST Superformance, 2605 fps with Federal Berger 135 gr Hybrid Hunter. I used to be 3000 fps or die/trade. With all the different "range compensating" reticles available I have come to peace with a little less. I have been a reloader since 1976...the factory loads for this rifle has made that obsession a little calmer. I can't live with 135 gr at 2605 fps. This rifle is too much fun to carry.
Last edited by Moses; 03/24/20.
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Joined: May 2005
Posts: 7,079
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 7,079 |
A lifetime ago, Elmer Keith wrote that the most reliable bullet performance and penetration comes from cartridges that start in the 2400-2800fps range,
Obviously this was themed on the bullet designs of the time but I can say that I have noted the same thing apart from the exception of bullet speeds that go way past 3000fps with the .257 Weatherby being a good example. Savvy handloaders who have been using tough 120 grain bullets in the 7mm Magnums will also have noted this.
But, high velocity isn't the only difference and yet it still is, relative to caliber and bullet weight, an example being those familiar with a .375 H&H performance as a step up over .30/06 level of performance as a recognizable jump many comment upon, but it happens again when the .460 Weatherby is used. These 3 levels tend to revert an experienced person to think that most everything from 6.5's to .338's are more similar than dissimilar to the performance of a .270. They tend to lump together as a performance category and you see that here whenever deer or elk cartridges are discussed, because they all do similar work when well delivered.
So, I would recommend simply looking for a load that little 6.5 digests that proves accurate and then concentrate on placing it as well as you can and that is the reasonable value you can expect from that cartridge. Setting personal goals that push things to the endth limits only causes stress and wear on the components of the build, starting with the brass. Enjoy the rifle and worry less about the load as most 6.5mm bullet will do what 6.5mm cartridges are commonly used for.
When truth is ignored, it does not change an untruth from remaining a lie.
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Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 2,626
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 2,626 |
Ramshot's data lists 2997 fps as max with the 120 Ballistic Tip, using Hunter in a 24" barrel, at 58,280 PSI.
The SAAMI pressure for the round is relatively low; dunno why, since it tends to be very consistent ballistically. A lot of reloaders push published loads another grain or so. (Others push it a LOT.)
I got around 3100 with the 120 Ballistic Tip with Hunter from the 26" barrel of my first Creedmoor, with fine accuracy. That was a factory Ruger barrel, not a custom with a minimum chamber or bore. My 26" Ruger does the same, good accuracy and doesn't show signs of pressure. Mine gets better accuracy backed off to about 2900 FPS so that's what I shoot.
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Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 347
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Campfire Member
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 347 |
strikes me as a sound, well considered approach
vires,fortitudo,vigilantia
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Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 13,401
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 13,401 |
A lifetime ago, Elmer Keith wrote that the most reliable bullet performance and penetration comes from cartridges that start in the 2400-2800fps range,
Obviously this was themed on the bullet designs of the time but I can say that I have noted the same thing apart from the exception of bullet speeds that go way past 3000fps with the .257 Weatherby being a good example. Savvy handloaders who have been using tough 120 grain bullets in the 7mm Magnums will also have noted this.
But, high velocity isn't the only difference and yet it still is, relative to caliber and bullet weight, an example being those familiar with a .375 H&H performance as a step up over .30/06 level of performance as a recognizable jump many comment upon, but it happens again when the .460 Weatherby is used. These 3 levels tend to revert an experienced person to think that most everything from 6.5's to .338's are more similar than dissimilar to the performance of a .270. They tend to lump together as a performance category and you see that here whenever deer or elk cartridges are discussed, because they all do similar work when well delivered.
So, I would recommend simply looking for a load that little 6.5 digests that proves accurate and then concentrate on placing it as well as you can and that is the reasonable value you can expect from that cartridge. Setting personal goals that push things to the endth limits only causes stress and wear on the components of the build, starting with the brass. Enjoy the rifle and worry less about the load as most 6.5mm bullet will do what 6.5mm cartridges are commonly used for. I believe one of our very fine gunwriters wrote an article (sub)titled “2,700 or bust” for Rifle or Handloader magazine. Very fine article!
“There are some who can live without wild things and some who cannot.”
ALDO LEOPOLD
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Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 1,869
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Campfire Regular
Joined: Dec 2010
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A little late to the discussion but I am getting 2880~ with 120 BT's and Varget from a 20" AR
"The more I am around people the better I like my dog." Mark Twain
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 9,472
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 9,472 |
Worked with Staball and the 120TTSX and 120 E Tip out of a Howa Alpine in 6.5 creed (20" barrel). Ran into stiff bolt lift at 44 grains and the velocities where just short of 2700 for the TTSX and just over 2700 for the E Tip. A bit disappointed with this powder. Plan to try RL 16 and H4350 next.
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Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 1,531
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Campfire Regular
Joined: Feb 2012
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I've got a .250 Savage, yes a little pip squeek .250 it has a 26" barrel and a really long throat and with a healthy dose of RL-17 it will spin 150 grain Ballistic Tips out the Muzzle at a little over 2900 FPS without any signs of excess pressure. My Chrony says 3000 but I've since checked and my Chrony reads a little high, So yes I believe a 6.5 CM with a 120 grain whatever and the right powder could top 3000 FPS safely depending on barrel length and throat dimensions.
Last edited by Filaman; 04/18/20.
What goes up must come down, what goes around comes around, there's no free lunch. Trump's comin' back, get over it!
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Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 30,901
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 30,901 |
I've got a .250 Savage, yes a little pip squeek .250 it has a 26" barrel and a really long throat and with a healthy dose of RL-17 it will spin 150 grain Ballistic Tips out the Muzzle at a little over 2900 FPS without any signs of excess pressure. My Chrony says 3000 but I've since checked and my Chrony reads a little high, So yes I believe a 6.5 CM with a 120 grain whatever and the right powder could top 3000 FPS safely depending on barrel length and throat dimensions. Are you sure your shooting s 150 grain bullet out of a 25p Savage?
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
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Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 6,825
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 6,825 |
what's a 25p savage? 
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 10,362
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 10,362 |
6.5-06 120 gr Nos bal tip moly 3.34" 50.7 gr IMR4166 3200 fps chrono
Animals fall down point blank.
Animals fall down at 400 yards.
There is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow man; true nobility is being superior to your former self. -Ernest Hemingway
The man who makes no mistakes does not usually make anything.-- Edward John Phelps
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Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 153
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OP
Campfire Member
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 153 |
My rifle arrived today, Redneck spent a little quality time on it.
Was 22” Baco M70 EW in 7mm-08. Now it is a 26” 6.5mm Creedmoor.
Won’t get to the range for a while and did not have time to take photos tonight.
First step of my project...have a rifle.
Before the gun shows shut down, I picked up Big Game, Hunter, and added to my stash of Varget. Have bunches of primers and 120 gr ETip/GMX/TTSX as discussed in previous posts.
Not sure about brass yet. Have read several posts about Hornady’s Superperformance 120 GMX load. Seems it meets my velocity goal in shorter tubes. So I am thinking about starting off with that load and using the brass.
Got it covered with the 22 LR, 30-06, and 12 gauge.
The rest are just for fun.
NRA Life Member
Never let the truth get in the way of a good story.
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,622
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,622 |
Just buy 6.5 PCR and 3000 FPs is be easy to obtain.
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Joined: Jan 2015
Posts: 34
Campfire Greenhorn
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Campfire Greenhorn
Joined: Jan 2015
Posts: 34 |
I have also chrono'd the Hornady Factory 120gr GMX at ~3050 and the 123gr Scenars at 3060, using RE-17 (23" barrel).
Depending on your choice of 120gr Mono, it should be possible to achieve >3,000 ft/sec without excessive pressure, so long as you use either fairly fast powders, or a barrel >24".
If you do, it's a great flat-shooting load and should kill anything within a quarter of a mile!
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 8,225
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 8,225 |
Just buy 6.5 PCR and 3000 FPs is be easy to obtain. ... or leave the 7mm-08 barrel that was on it. But, who am I to talk?
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Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 2,626
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 2,626 |
My rifle arrived today, Redneck spent a little quality time on it.
Was 22” Baco M70 EW in 7mm-08. Now it is a 26” 6.5mm Creedmoor.
Won’t get to the range for a while and did not have time to take photos tonight.
First step of my project...have a rifle.
Before the gun shows shut down, I picked up Big Game, Hunter, and added to my stash of Varget. Have bunches of primers and 120 gr ETip/GMX/TTSX as discussed in previous posts.
Not sure about brass yet. Have read several posts about Hornady’s Superperformance 120 GMX load. Seems it meets my velocity goal in shorter tubes. So I am thinking about starting off with that load and using the brass. Why?
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