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" we advise to invest in Cohen & Steers MLP Income and Energy Opportunity Fund (MIE) instead. "

With and expense ratio of 2.59%?

That seems a bit on the high side.

My company doesn’t give me a 92% match to invest in real estate.

My shares of VTSAX won't ever smash every wall in the house and toss a garden hose in the attic on full blast.
My shares of VTSAX won't ever refuse to pay rent on time.
My shares of VTSAX won't ever clog the toilet.

Real estate is far from rainbows and unicorns that many make it out to be.

Oh, come on. Rea estate just has different risks associated with it than investing in mutual funds. However, it is MUCH more binary, so if the arsehole that moves next door to your property turns his into an overgrown junk yard with pitbulls, or a crack house, or a section 8 family with accompanying yelling matches in the street at 3 AM, a very large part of your "safe" investment tanks, all at once. One company out of 500 in a mutual fund tanks, you won't even know it. In that sense real estate is more risky.

Likewise, there are vast stretches of real estate that have not even held their value (anyone invest in Detroit property 20 years ago?) Most markets have done well, but certainly not all. If you live in a small town in rural Nebraska, getting 15% returns is wishful thinking. And once you are in? Try selling in a market like that. It might take you two years to unload an under performing property. If my energy mutual fund is not performing, I sell it and trade it for an international growth fund with the click of a mouse.

That, and the hassle factor. Logging in to Vanguard and checking how the various mutual funds are doing isn't very arduous. Being on a fist name basis with the plumber implies a different level of hassle.

I'm not arguing against real estate as an investment, but it's not all unicorns and colored sprinkles.....

1. My shares of VTSAX won't ever smash every wall in the house and toss a garden hose in the attic on full blast. That's what you have insurance for.
2. My shares of VTSAX won't ever refuse to pay rent on time. So, throw their ass out and get somebody in there to pay MORE rent. BTW- you don't have to hold ANYTHING to make your money. I have a friend who doesn't hold anything and does very well for himself. Just talked to him this morning and had a good libtard laugh while he was sitting on his balcony watching the rain come in off the ocean.
3. My shares of VTSAX won't ever clog the toilet. I don't ever worry about that. After 30 days, I give them a plumber's number to call.


I don't know how you got to the rainbows and unicorns. But, if you've never tried it or done it, you have no basis to comment. Nothing worth doing is easy. Nobody ever said it would be. I just know I've provided for my family into infinity.

I also know what works and has worked for me for many years. I've made more in 5 year periods than I made working for the man in 20.

On many occasions, features that work AGAINST you in the stock market work FOR you in real estate.

But, to each his own. We have choices. That's the beauty of this country (for now).

1. I never invested in Detroit.
2. More unicorns.
3. To each their own.

Pugs, I hear ya. I took full advantage of that, too. Not saying I don't have holdings in the stock market. Of course, that's part of diversification.

Over a long period of time:
gun, guitars, and Gold do 3%,
real estate does 6%
the stock market does 9%


There are exceptions:

Colt double actions do better than 3%
Seattle real estate does better than 6%
Those of us who were early to get into NFLX, AMZN, GOOG, AAPL, and MSFT do better than 9%

Mossberg 16 ga bolt action shotguns do less than 3%
Detroit real estate does less than 6%
Ford and Macy's do less than 9%

Clark, you obviously have never been a real estate investor if you think real estate only returns 6%.

How do you equate a 6% return with a property you gain control of with no money down? Let me help you with that. The return is infinite.

The fact that you guys want to argue over this is incredible to me.

As I said, to each his own. Free country (so far).

I honestly am surprised this bull market is still going. Glad folks are making money. Been a good run.

That takes into account the leverage. It is a leveraged CEF. The question to ask is can you borrow money to invest at 2.59% . . . it is quite the bargain IMO.

The same, way, you fine fellow, as investing with no money down in stocks, bonds, puts, calls, straddles, gold, silver, or Colt double actions. In theory, infinite returns. In reality, lots of folks experience infinitely NEGATIVE returns, or are lucky to escape with their heiny still attached.

There's nothing special about real estate, other than very favorable tax treatment, which in itself is enough reason to invest there if you have substantial wealth. But it's not guaranteed, easy, low hassle or magic.

This is exactly what you guys just cannot get your head around. IT DOES NOT REQUIRE SUBSTANTIAL WEALTH TO INVEST IN REAL ESTATE. You can be a transaction engineer. Yes, once you've built some wealth, you can use it as leverage, and deals do come to you more frequently when people know you've got ca$h to solve their problems.. But, it's not a requirement to start up front.

Are you trying to educate me on what I've been doing for decades, Dutch? Please do.. and please tell me about my unattached heiny. Laughing.

What is it with you stock market guys that you can go on for 21 pages about the stock market and the second somebody mentions real estate, you get all chitty and angry. It's like clockwork. I can twist your nipples from a thousand miles away with one sentence.

One other thing. They can't tax equity.. Well almost, as you may have been alluding to above regarding favorable tax treatment. That is more complex and the subject of another discussion.

One other gem I'll share with you for free. Rental income does not count against your social security benefits.

Once again, to each their own, and it's still a free country.

If you buy a home with 20% down, the return may be 5 X as big as 100% down.

There is a book, The Great Reckoning that says the time between depressions is 60 years, the length of living memory not to invest with borrowed money.

https://www.amazon.com/Great-Reckoning-Protecting-Yourself-Depression/dp/0671885286

My parents had quite a few house that they rented and I have been a remodel carpenter for 38 yrs. I know a few things about real-estate myself along with investing. Local Dirt invested in real-estate where the economy did well so rentals were in demand and so was capital appreciation on his rentals. I dont know where Local Dirt lives . However, I can tell you there are many, many people who invested in rentals and did not do well. Local Dirt implies the whole country did as good as his area, I think. In Utica , New York the houses have not appreciated much at all and is all but a depressed area. You can bet there are investors who did not do well there at all. In many parts of Michigan, not just Detroit but Upper Michigan the housing hardly recovered the last 10 yrs. Make no mistake , there are real-estate investors who wished they never touched a rental in Upper Michigan or even Detroit more so. Some , like my parents lost money in stocks and vowed to build and remodel houses cause he was a carpenter. They did fairly well in a very booming area west of Milwaukee. The did fine. However, as close as I can tell , they would have done just as good in a simple S&P 500 fund, and better had they put money in a real estate mutual fund or stocks like W. P. Carey or Realty Income. I considered everything about my parents income properties and left nothing out, not reinvested money from the rent, taxes, capital gains ETC. I decided to not rent cause we lost a few bids on 2 houses about 6 or 8 yrs ago. Had I go them houses I would have done better than my stock portfolio. The reason isn't cause houses and rentals do better but the timing of buying the 2 properties were perfect, just didn't get exerted offer . I still am not sure I regret not getting them . I put much in real-estate stocks. I and getting 10% divies on a bunch of it and the price is up 40% from what I payed. I do have a standing offer to buy one of my moms duplexes. I'm not terribly interested however.

1. I have only once ever put 20% down. You don't need that much to create leverage if you're "investing" and not just "buying".
2. You (and/or she) are completely ignoring "built in/out of the box" equity. I never buy anything without at least 30% equity already built in. And when I say buy, I mean control.
3. You (and/or she) have also completely ignored rent . Also, I don't leave any properties sitting empty.. ever.. unless I'm selling. And they may not even be empty then. Lol.
4. It's not 2013 anymore. I pretty much know property values in all the areas within 20 miles of my house like the back of my hand, and they have not and are not appreciating at 3 - 5% annually.
5. In fact, none of the properties I currently own are appreciating or have appreciated at 3 - 5% annually. Maybe it's different where you live, but not in the high-demand area where I live.

I'm done here. You guys play nice now..

It's true, Local Dirt. Much depends on where you invested. There are people who invested in areas 10 yrs ago that have not had their real-estate appreciate. Milwaukee is one of them. It is not doing well at all. Go 20 miles west and lans appreciated 50% plus the rental money. This is why some say , " I tried rentals and they suck" . The next poster, " I hate the market cause I put money in in 2006 and lost my assss so I took it out in 2010, went to rental and am happy. It all depends on how you do it. With rental units, you really have to know what you are doing. Go too far on the cheap side of rental properties like near inner cities cause the building was cheap can burn you like an investor that only looks at the highest dividends when the stock price is cheap. There is a reason for both investments that the price is cheap. There is no difference in profit between real-estate renting and the stock market. Here is an example. Peter Lynch, one of the best investors on earth managed the Fidelity Megellen fund. He returned 29.2% avr. per yr for 13 yrs. Guess how much the avr. Megellen investor made . They did not make 29.2% avr. That made about 5% per yr. avr. How did this happen???? It happened cause so many people tried to time the market and kept jumping in and out of the fund. The only reason renters might do better is cause they buy a property and keep it for long periods of time. This is the same as " time in the market" . If a renter buys, gets scared and sells, then buys, gets scared and sells a property we all know they will loose money. Stock investing and rental property are the same. As a matter of fact, I am quite certain, REITS outperform rentals . here is why Professionals manage REITS . Some are bad professionals but most are good. Take the avr. renter , some are professionals but some a fly by night wannabes and they dont do so good.

Trim your flowers and water your weeds.

I do invest in REITs, also.

REITs are good investments. Property REITs in particular.