Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Hunter's Campfire Meditations on Concealed Carry

and knowing how to shoot a hand gun.

i can hit clay pigeons at a 100 yds with my 3 inch 357 ruger.

Holsters are a pretty personal preference area, but since we're talking about church, can we assume you can wear a coat? That would seem to give you a lot of options to try out.

The way I look at it, everyone should start by picking the gun they want to have in a gunfight, and work backwards from there finding a way to carry it.

I have to agree with A_S on this one, Denton.

You have to decide if you want to carry a fighting handgun, or a last-resort self-defense gun (or both). I tend to carry both, or at least have both with me. My always gun for a number of years now has been a Kahr PM9. It's very small, very packable in a pocket holster or ankle holster, so I rarely go out and about unarmed. I practice with it, and can confidently hit a IPSC head box at 10 yards with a high rate of repeatability. Kahr used to be the only source for teeny weenie nines, but now several other 9mm pistols are hot competitors. The Glock 48 is probably the best of the bunch, and that's what my wife carries every day now. There is no need to carry a 380 these days, with such small and potent 9mm pistols available. So my Kahr is my "always" gun.

But it's not a fighting handgun.

I have also carried a 5-shot S&W revolver in the same manner, and can shoot it at least as well as the Kahr. I put a set of Crimson Trace grips on this revolver, and I can reliably put 5/5 shots in the IPSC head box at 25 yards with this laser dot.

But it's not a fighting handgun.

When the Aurora CO theater shooting went down a few years ago, I had to look seriously at my primary handgun choice. We went around this topic at length on several forums, including the Handguns forum on this site (which I no longer bother to visit, it's almost as bad as the Optics forum). A few truly expert persons such as Mackay Sagebrush convinced me that I need to carry a fighting handgun whenever I can do so.

A fighting handgun is exactly that. A reliable, solid platform for a serious cartridge, with enough capacity to handle at least 2 engagements/opponents. A 6-round revolver in 357 Mag or larger caliber meets this requirement, as do many autopistols. It needs to be accurate enough to hit the head box of an IPSC target reliably at 15 yards. It needs to be easily reloadable, because as others have pointed out, the propaganda about low round count and close distance isn't reliable. As Mackay Sagebrush says, you don't often get the gunfight you want, but you always get the gunfight you get. So plan accordingly. The guy at White Settlement didn't plan to shoot a killer in the brainstem at 15 yards, but that's the gunfight he got.

For me, my fighting handgun choice means a Glock 19 or a S&W Scandium 1911, with backup mags. These are guns that I can shoot well. I have tens of thousands of rounds through them, and I have several examplars of each. I practice with them every time I go the range, and I shoot them in IPSC and IDPA and 3-Gun competitions to keep me sharp. And I have done so for more than 20 years. They have the range and power to incapacitate an opponent with one well-placed shot, and the capacity to allow me to engage 2 or more opponents without reloading. I used to carry a G19 with a Crimson Trace grip on it, and with that system I could make reliable head box shots at 40 yards. But I sold that gun and haven't replaced the CTC grips yet... I need to do that. I rarely see the red laser dot when I'm doing short work, but when you have to hit waaay out there, the laser is a game changer.

The G19 gets the nod most of the time, both for training and for regular carry. I carry it on my strongside hip most of the time. However, I have found a shoulder holster is very comfortable and seem to be using that more and more as I get older. It's a great way to carry when you're driving or any place you expect you'll be sitting a lot. But it's harder to conceal, you need to wear a vest or jacket over it. Galco makes several excellent rigs including the Jackass Rig and the Miami Rig. I have two Miami rigs, and they are quality products.

Ken Hackathorn said it best: "Train the way you expect to fight, for you will surely fight they way you have trained." Don't get caught in a gunfight with a nonfighting gun.

^^^This^^^

I consider my little Ruger LCP 380 strictly a backup gun or BUG for my real carry gun. Which is normally a Glock 32 in .357 Sig. or at the minimum my Sig P365 9mm with 13 rounds & at least one 15 round extra magazine to back it up.

That being said, I wouldn’t fill too under armed carrying my Commander sized 1911 in 45 acp or my 3” S&W M 66 in .357

Yep. Can be done with most handguns with some practice.

Thing I haven’t seen mentioned here is the necessity for frangible Ammo when running a higher powered cartridge in these situations. Don’t want to find myself having mistakenly used a Sunday school student as a backstop on a bad guy.

As others have said a .380 (which is what I carry loaded w/ 95 GR Hornady Critical defense) is better than nothing.

In a medium- to large-sized congregation I’d rather have a bunch of individuals spread across the worship area with .380s than a few with 45s.

I agree here. I carry an officers size Wilson Combat in 9mm. I have a couple of high end IWB holsters including a Milt Sparks Versa Max. I ordered a belt on-line from the beltman. I believe the link is beltman.com. I got the horse hide with the stiffener. When I actually got use to it, I forget it is there.

Much valuable insite and shared information on this thread. Thanks to all for sharing.

Antelope Sniper made a lot of good points in his reply & I'll just add my thoughts & what I use & do.

I am not at all a fan of small guns or a 380 (though my wife carries one for size); if is difficult, IMO, to be precise at much more than spitting distance with mouse guns & in many cases, the individual that you might be facing may either be juiced on drugs or a large person on has on heavy clothing or any combination of those circumstances, all of which significantly reduce the effectiveness of most rounds.

My EDC's have a range of guns, mostly all about the same size, Colt Commander sized, S& W1911 round butt, Kimber Pro, M&P 2.0 with 3.5" barrel, G-19, Beretta 92 Compact & for a small gun a G-27 which can go into a jacket pocket. I want precision & power& shootability & all those guns provide exactly that whether is a 9mm, 45 ACP or 40 S&W...................all are more than adequate with good bullets like Federal HST's.

I am a fair sized guy at 6'1", 225 lb & my waist has gone up to around a 38-39" size as well.

I have tried most major brands & types & materials of holsters available ranging from Sparks, to Brommeland to various Galco & Crossbreeds & many other, I have a drawer full of them. But for the last couple of years, I've settled on a very low cost Remora & it works better for those sized guns & is more comfortable, than almost any other design & it's under $40 & the same holster fits several similarly sized guns, with or w/o a rail.

Check it out & do not be put off by the loop-less design.............it absolutely stays 100% in place. If you go that route, get the Artemis cut with sweatshield, fleece lining (ease of withdrawal) & reinforced mouth also for easy withdrawal.

I like & use shoulder holsters, given suitable attire & especially when in a car for long periods of time. Miami Classic is my current choice.

MM

I carry a Bible case that doesn’t contain a Bible. It has a USP 40 with an extra magazine inside. Always have a J frame in my front pocket. This latest shooting has made me rethink my everyday carry. Still undecided what to do.
Hasbeen

If it ever "Hits the fan", I'd like one of you gentlemen in a nearby pew.

MontanaMan's suggestion of the Remora holster is cheap enough to just try as an experiment, so I put in an order. Might order something else from the other good suggestions made so far. I need to see if I can tolerate IWB before springing for one of the expensive models.

Rocky Raab told me years a go that I would end up with a shoebox full of holsters I don't use anymore.... LOL.... he was right. Though I do have a few that I routinely use.

Anyway, the Remora lets me step up to a full size 9mm, which is much easier to shoot accurately, plus being a bit more potent. I load Hornady XTP bullets for that.

Probably the next step up from that is my 41 Mag snubby. I have a pancake holster for it, and it shoots very well and carries decently for me.

One sweet spot in the revolver landscape is a 44 Special. Basically, 45 ACP power in a small, light package. But then there is the thickness of that darn cylinder.

An Airweight with an Uncle Mikes Combat Grip has been my EDC for more than 25 years, for most all of that time I carried it in a nondescript waist pack. What became obvious at the White Settlement incident was what I had always read, if you can’t get the gun out and presented in two seconds or less you might as well hang it up.

I’ve shot it often over the years, center mass torso hits at 15 oughtta be routinely doable, the same with careful aimed fire at 25.

I was reasonably fast getting it out of that waist pack but for me it’s even faster coming out of a front pocket where it is contained in an Uncle Mike’s pocket holster. In the woods I always carried a Glock 19 in that same waist pack but have now gone to an outside the waistband holster just behind my hip, my son has the Glock so now I’m using a 9mm Springfield Armory XDs, Only half as many rounds as the 19 but I shoot it well, hopefully 8+ 1 will be enough.

Waist packs suck for drawing your weapon, IMO, Mike.
They also scream GUN. I’ve tried in vain to talk many of my CHL students out of using one.

If I can wear a holster, pocket carry is my preferred method. And much faster than a waist pack. Especially if your hand is already grasping the handgun, if someone is acting suspicious.

Had a couple of neredowells try to approach me while filling up my truck after midnight at a gas station in a bad part of Dallas. Put my hand in my pocket on a snubnose J-frame as I squared up to face them. They quickly turned and decided they had urgent business elsewhere. 🤠

I’ll have to give the Remora holsters a try.
Where do you purchase yours MM ?

I also like Galco shoulder holsters. I prefer their Jackass Rig for my Glocks.

Birdy,

The mags for the XDS are small, throw a couple extra in the old pockets.

Yep. My experience with the XDS in .45 acp was good. I always carried 2 spare mags for it when I packed it.

Yea, I like mine in 9mm. I only carry it when I have to dress up and can't dress around something more substantial. With the extended 8 round magazines I get a good grip with the whole and, and, for me, the grip geometry make it shoot better than I would expect from a pistol of that size. I'll be interested is taking a look at Springfield's new replacement for it, the Hellcat when it's in stores around here.

There is no upside to carrying a bullet for deadly force purposes that was designed to break apart when it hits targets. Frangible bullets are for target purposes, not for antipersonnel use. There is a large body of ballistics research going back to the old IWBA showing that bullets designed to break up like the Glaser Safety Slug and the MagSafe rounds are no safer than standard JHP bullets, but they may fail to stop an attacker the way standard JHP bullets will do. So you get the worst of both worlds.

The best way to minimize collateral injuries is to train to the point that your are as good as you can be with your defensive firearm in terms of repeatable accuracy and tactical application.

If you like the P238, why not step up to the P938 in 9mm? Mine doesn't recoil badly even with hot 9's. It is not appreciably bigger than the 380 version. If you're not worried about concealment, then there are a lot of other options. You'll just never get as good a concealment with a revolver.