the underwood 147 grain hardcast are probably very similar to the bullets Phill Shoemacker killed the grizzly with, different missions, different bullets.
2 years ago, fellow called me and the president of our club, he had just shot an 8 pt in the neck with his 30-06 and been looking for it for an hour could not find it. We went to the club the next 2 days and looked a couple of hours each day, finally found the rest of the deer where the coyote's had not eaten it. Neck intact no hole in it, probably hit him too far back but could not tell that, just no hole or damage to the neck. These anecdotal stories are great fun but do not prove that the 9mm is not equal to the 45ACP. In my desk drawer I have 40 Underwood 147 grain hard cast cartridges that I load in my P365 when I carry it hunting, different mission, different bullets.
Yoh discount anything that doesnt fit your agenda, effectiveness with proper ammo in each is not far apart but not the same. I saw a man shot a deer in the neck and the bullet exited and broke the offside shoulder the deer ran across a field with leg dangling. Deer was not located until the following morning and was still alive. The bullet missed the vertebrae and broke the offside shoulder without hitting any vital organs It happens
Why don't you actually shoot a deer or pig with your prefered load and get some real experience
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
Whitworth1, you are posting to discredit me, good for you, it says a lot about you. In the field of big game hunting with a handgun you have been there and done that. However what most military and police agencies are using have nothing to do with handgun hunting. Further my handgun hunting abilities have nothing to do with the effectiveness of 9mm, 40SW, and 45 ACP as used in self defense shootings. You cannot say I am making an assumption when most agencies are adopting the 9mm for their personnel who go into harms way and all self defense handgun rounds are more similar than they are different....As Bluedreax said he has not seen anything shot with a 124 grain gold dot that has lived. We have our personal prejudices and we are entitled to our own opinions but we are not entitled to our own facts, the 9mm with good bullets is about the same in performance as the 45ACP in self defense shootings, not an assumption, if you say it is post up proof that the 45ACP with its best bullets is 20% better using all considerations than the 9mm.
No, again you are making assumptions about me. Terminal ballistics are terminal ballistics irrespective of the mammalian test subject. Since you can’t shoot humans in your testing regimen....
Did you spend any time in the military? You assume that I know nothing about defensive calibers because I don’t argue here about this stuff incessantly.
Once again why are we getting emotional about the 45 ACP? I have killed way way north of 100 deer in my life, I have only 3 wall hangers, I shot a lot of meat deer when I had 4 kids living at home. I have lost one deer in my life due to stupidly not sighting in a 270 Winchester. I hit it high. I don’t care if anyone uses any cartridge they want to use, my argument is that there is a reason most agencies are moving to the 9. For what it’s worth I carry a Glock 20 with meprolifht adjustable sights in a Kennai chest holster shooting 200 grain Montana bullets over as much AA#9 as I can get in the case when I hunt. I carry a P365 with 147 grain hardcast for extended hikes. If I thought for a nano second that the 45acp would outperform the 9mm then I would carry the 45Acp! I have a wonderfully accurate 45 shield I will never sell as it’s a pure joy to shoot, and watching the slow WW 230 ball bullets fly when the sun is right is just a hoot. For daily CC the P365 with the 12 round magazine is a good fit where I live and is in line with what everyone else is doing. I shoot HST’s not speers but it might not matter. A solid hit with a 124 grain HST or gold dot would be very very bad, the 45 gold dot might improve on the results a bit but in the end would shoot ability out weight a 10% difference in performance?
Once again why are we getting emotional about the 45 ACP? I have killed way way north of 100 deer in my life, I have only 3 wall hangers, I shot a lot of meat deer when I had 4 kids living at home. I have lost one deer in my life due to stupidly not sighting in a 270 Winchester. I hit it high. I don’t care if anyone uses any cartridge they want to use, my argument is that there is a reason most agencies are moving to the 9. For what it’s worth I carry a Glock 20 with meprolifht adjustable sights in a Kennai chest holster shooting 200 grain Montana bullets over as much AA#9 as I can get in the case when I hunt. I carry a P365 with 147 grain hardcast for extended hikes. If I thought for a nano second that the 45acp would outperform the 9mm then I would carry the 45Acp! I have a wonderfully accurate 45 shield I will never sell as it’s a pure joy to shoot, and watching the slow WW 230 ball bullets fly when the sun is right is just a hoot. For daily CC the P365 with the 12 round magazine is a good fit where I live and is in line with what everyone else is doing. I shoot HST’s not speers but it might not matter. A solid hit with a 124 grain HST or gold dot would be very very bad, the 45 gold dot might improve on the results a bit but in the end would shoot ability out weight a 10% difference in performance?
I'd carry and do carry tol quality JHP in P365 and would not switch to hardcast unless you are shooting very large animals. For anything in the lower 48 the increase in diameter of a JHP would be much better than a skinnier deeper wound channel.
With the round nose flat point the 45 is preferred
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
Yep, most of the new ones don't really do anything more that old ones can do now. Bullets and powders have improved. New ones don't anything more other than be NEW.
Once again why are we getting emotional about the 45 ACP? I have killed way way north of 100 deer in my life, I have only 3 wall hangers, I shot a lot of meat deer when I had 4 kids living at home. I have lost one deer in my life due to stupidly not sighting in a 270 Winchester. I hit it high. I don’t care if anyone uses any cartridge they want to use, my argument is that there is a reason most agencies are moving to the 9. For what it’s worth I carry a Glock 20 with meprolifht adjustable sights in a Kennai chest holster shooting 200 grain Montana bullets over as much AA#9 as I can get in the case when I hunt. I carry a P365 with 147 grain hardcast for extended hikes. If I thought for a nano second that the 45acp would outperform the 9mm then I would carry the 45Acp! I have a wonderfully accurate 45 shield I will never sell as it’s a pure joy to shoot, and watching the slow WW 230 ball bullets fly when the sun is right is just a hoot. For daily CC the P365 with the 12 round magazine is a good fit where I live and is in line with what everyone else is doing. I shoot HST’s not speers but it might not matter. A solid hit with a 124 grain HST or gold dot would be very very bad, the 45 gold dot might improve on the results a bit but in the end would shoot ability out weight a 10% difference in performance?
How did you arrive at a 10% difference in performance?
He who joyfully marches in rank and file has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would suffice.
thank you for your question. Published results generally show that handgun fatalities or handgun's changing someones behavioral style are in the 10-25% range IIRC. There are so many variables, one person might fall down after being shot in the hand with a 22 LR, while another might keep trying to kill you after being shot multiple times with a 45ACP. The fatality thing is more quantifiable, and I have not seen the study in a while but based on a very large number of shootings the difference in lethality between a 45 and a 9mm is not that far apart. There are a myriad of factors that influence this not just the bore size. For instance some people choose a 45ACP, but cannot shoot it that well and might make a hit with it, but not a lethal hit. It is also conceivable that the .1 inch difference in bore size at handgun speeds is not that significant provided both bullets penetrate as deeply.
Killed in action Benjamin Grogan: Smith & Wesson Model 459 9mm semi-automatic pistol, nine rounds fired. Killed by a .223 gunshot wound to the chest. Jerry Dove: Smith & Wesson Model 459 9mm semi-automatic pistol, 20+ rounds fired. Killed by two .223 gunshot wounds to the head.
Wounded in action
Richard Manauzzi: lost control of weapon in the initial vehicle collision, no shots fired. Minor wounds from shotgun pellets.[8] Gordon McNeill: Smith & Wesson Model 19 .357 Magnum revolver (not FBI issue, but personally owned .357's and .38's could be approved for carry by supervisors, same applies with Mireles's Model 686), six rounds .38 Special +P fired. Seriously wounded by .223 gunshot wounds to the right hand and neck. Edmundo Mireles: Remington 870 12-gauge pump-action shotgun, five rounds of 00 buckshot fired; .357 Magnum revolver; Smith & Wesson Model 686, six rounds .38 Special +P fired. Seriously wounded by a .223 gunshot wound to the left forearm. Gilbert Orrantia: S&W (model unknown, likely a Model 13, as it was an issued weapon at the time) .357 Magnum revolver, 12 rounds .38 Special +P fired. Wounded by shrapnel and debris produced by a .223 bullet near miss. John Hanlon: Smith & Wesson Model 36 .38 Special revolver, five rounds .38 Special +P fired. Seriously wounded by .223 gunshot wounds to the right hand and groin.
Suspects William Matix: Smith & Wesson Model 3000 12-gauge pump shotgun, one round of #6 shot fired. Killed after being shot six times. Michael Platt: Ruger Mini-14 .223 Remington semi-automatic rifle with folding stock, at least 42 rounds fired, S&W M586 .357 Magnum revolver, three rounds fired, Dan Wesson .357 Magnum revolver, three rounds fired. Killed after being shot 12 times.
I would like to believe the 5.7 x 28 is "all that", its just hard for me to understand, how a 40 grain vmax at 1700 fps is as effective as even the 9mm 124 grain at 1100fps.
20 round magazines and light recoil are appealing.
I like to do my hunting BEFORE I pull the trigger! There is only one kind of dead, but there are many different kinds of wounded.
yep, I am beginning to think about the 5.7 x 28 myself, the gelatin blocks show while not as deep in penetration as the 9's and others the gelatin shows tremendous disruption.
I've often wondered what the outcome of Miami '86 would have been if every pistol shot that hit Platt and Matix had been made with 45 230 ball, instead of 38/9mm JHP.
Direct Impingement is the Fart Joke of military rifle operating systems. ⓒ
I thought we were done thinking of Miami as a hardware problem.
But, come to think of it - this is exactly what I was getting at. Commercial success is not necessarily determined by real world performance. Because we all spend too much time looking for a hardware solution to a software problem.
10mm being issued to Feebs came about directly due to this shootout. 40 came about because Feebs thought the 10 was too much. Now we're back to the 9 because all the agencies that followed the Feeb's lead still are. If somebody would have just took the time and aimed for the head there wouldn't have been so many casualties. It was a training failure on many levels, not a failure of equipment or ammo.
This is from a made for TV movie so I can't vouch for the accuracy but supposedly they tried to recreate the shooting as closely as they could. Pretty nasty business, and that one bad guy just would not go down.
These were two vicious people. I lived in S. Florida at the time and remember the warnings about going shooting alone. The way these guys would get vehicles and weapons was to go to some public shooting spot which even in 1986 were few and far between, usually a couple of people would drive out near the Glades and shoot into a drainage canal. Anyway, these two would drive up acting like another couple of recreational shooters but would wait until someone's gun was empty then rob them and usually kill them. IIRC the big lead the FBI got was when one of their victims either got away or was shot and survived, I forget which, but he was able to give a description of the pair and a vehicle.
Gunnery, gunnery, gunnery. Hit the target, all else is twaddle!
