Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Handguns why do new handgun calibers so often fail?

In Dr Franklin's book a complete forensic account the statement written by agent Mireles says they were using the weapon they were qualified to use by the FBI. They were in a rolling stakeout and the agents that were qualified with submachine guns couldn't get there fast enough.

Agent Mireless also stated that the suspects were shooting back and moving making them a difficult target and that they were hit each time they exposed themselves.

My point here is hits are much more difficult when you're in the line of fire

My point to bringing this up wasn’t what went wrong, it was the fact that Matix was hit twice early in the fight in the head and neck by a 357 mag revolver to only be knocked unconscious, Platt had an initial hit with 9mm that punctured a lung and stopped just short of his heart which is credited with being the fatal (or should have been) shot. Matix would survive and rejoin the fight till 2 9mm rounds 1 hitting the spine one just missing. Platt continued until eventually succumbing to the initial wound or the 10 others. To this day the FBI still can’t explain how both were able to continue the fight after the initial wounds.

So the argument of which is better 10mm, 9mm, 45acp or 357 mag and 38+P is moot is it not?

Per Jim in Idaho...

Good practice is to never leave firearms from shooting position unattended and NEVER go downrange UNARMED.

Matrix was hit in the head with a 38 Special +P 158 lead semi wadcutter hollow point not a 357 magnum at least not according to Dr. Franklin's forensic report.
The bullet stopped against his spine, not having enough penetration to sever the vertebrae

My point to bringing this up wasn’t what went wrong, it was the fact that Matix was hit twice early in the fight in the head and neck by a 357 mag revolver to only be knocked unconscious, Platt had an initial hit with 9mm that punctured a lung and stopped just short of his heart which is credited with being the fatal (or should have been) shot. Matix would survive and rejoin the fight till 2 9mm rounds 1 hitting the spine one just missing. Platt continued until eventually succumbing to the initial wound or the 10 others. To this day the FBI still can’t explain how both were able to continue the fight after the initial wounds.

So the argument of which is better 10mm, 9mm, 45acp or 357 mag and 38+P is moot is it not?

cooper was a colorful old fart, but just like many deer hunters I know, he believed in what he used that had worked and just like deer hunters, fishermen, and other liars often embellished the truth his disciples clung too. With something like 50% or better of people surviving pistol shootings regardless of the diameter of the hit, we can all agree (I think) that pistols are relatively low powered devices compared to even a simple 55 grain 5.56 projectile at 3000 fps. So one ponders if the Miami shootings were no more than a testament to the supposition that "pistols are relatively low powered and many people survive being shot". On the other hand, better bullets are available now that make a larger hole and still penetrate 13-14 inches. While no one can do anything about producing a pistol that shoots a 3000 FPS projectile they can do something about making it expand a caliber or two and still going 13 inches deep. People believe what they want to believe, if they are emotionally invested into something you could prove your point 6 ways to Sunday and they still would not believe.it. Look at all the damn Moslems blowing themselves up because they actually believe their getting 70 virgins or some such horseshit. In closing there are those who will drag a cocked and locked 5 inch solid steel 1911 45ACP around with them their entire life, provided they shoot it and use good bullets they are well protected, there are others that will stuff a plastic G19 with 124 grain gold dots into their belt and call it good, they too are as well protected as the fellow with the 1911. At the end of the day all factors considered they are about equal in performance.

Or we could just pay attention to the 1000’s of tabulated shootings that are cataloged by result and caliber.

Or we could just pay attention to the 1000’s of tabulated shootings that are cataloged by result and caliber.

I don't take your comment personally, I am just a dude on the internet. Then on the other hand I am not making money saying and doing what I am saying and doing, and cooper did make money (ball ammo 90% lethal!!), his gospel was the 45 and the 1911, and he preached that gospel making a buck or two in the process while degrading everything that he did not believe in..don't you think he might have been a bit prejudiced? Then looking at today's relevant data, my opinion has at least some merit to it, in that Cooper's opinion even if it was 100% honest was based on the fact that he did not have time travel so he was stuck with the bullets of his time, we still being here and current find that modern bullets have made a difference. Finally what made Jeff Cooper any different than any other gun writer? They all publish mostly pulp fiction that gets us to want to buy this or that gun. As a lad I heard a story that a 45ACP hit to the pinky would knock you down, and saw cowboy movies with some folks flying backward when hit with the 45 Long Colt. All grown up now I still run into people that buy a 45 acp thinking its the most powerful handgun in existence and buy that over a 9mm cause its more deadly.