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Joined: Mar 2006
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Mar 2006
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Brad,
Again, I can respect and accept that you have your experiences and that of friends you trust. But I also have a reasonably significant amount of experience with Barnes bullets (as I said, very close to 150 head of big game), and that doesn't take into account the handful of trusted friends, family members, and hunting buddies that have also used Barnes bullets to some extent without me being present. None of us have experienced what you describe with regards to failures of Barnes bullets. Even when they perform as designed, monos don't always do as much damage as other bullets, but I've never seen one fail to expand at all, based on wound channels. You say you've never had a lead bullet fail, but I have witnessed a few. Sort of the inverse situation to this Barnes discussion. I really don't think either of us is drawing on a large enough sample size to make any definitive claims, considering that we are making observations of results with many variables at play in an uncontrolled environment.
The original X bullet and TSX had a fairly small HP opening, but that is not the case with the TTSX and LRX. Actually, the tipped bullets have a fairly substantial cavity.
As far as embracing a "belief system" goes, I'm not partial or loyal to any brand or type of bullet, and in fact, I currently use a few different bullets on game. If a bullet comes along that meets my criteria better than what I'm currently using, I'll gladly switch. To the contrary, I choose to embrace statistically sound scientific analysis, which neither of us has done, and that is why you don't see me making any bold claims like yours. I'm not claiming any sort of universal behaviour or failure rates of the current offerings of Barnes bullets (or any others), and simply stick to reporting my observations based on a reasonably substantial, but certainly not definitive, sample size.
I am also okay with disagreeing with others, even people that I very much respect, based on a difference of observations and experiences. Conversation would be pretty dull if everybody just nodded their head all the time. I'm not sure how much experience Pat has with Barnes (I know he's seen a ton of Scenars on game), but he certainly falls into the category of people that I highly respect. That doesn't change the fact that I've seen quite a few head of game killed with Barnes, and the conclusions I've made based on my observations may differ with other people who have also seen a number of game killed with the same bullets.
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Joined: Feb 2005
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Campfire Outfitter
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I’d wager they fail more than every other cup and core bullet combined x 10.
Based on what I've seen, and what various friends have observed, I guarantee you more Barnes bullets are passing through game un-expanded than what most would imagine.
That’s a pretty bold claim based on a limited sample size; one that doesn’t jive with my personal experience of witnessing ~150 big-game animals killed with Barnes bullets, not including the experiences of my hunting partners, friends, and family. You’ve been posting that same picture for years, and while I don’t doubt your experiences, you’re sure getting a lot of mileage out of it while claiming that Barnes bullets fail more than all C&C bullets combined x10. To see a tipped Barnes that had failed is extremely rare, IME, and even the non-tipped bullets produced uniformly expected results in my limited sample size. There is plenty of other pics on the internet showing the same thing. Barnes has continued to change their bullets since the original X bullet came out. This is for good reason. There is not a manufacturer in the world that does not strive to improve their product as technology changes. To not do so is to fail as your competitors change and improve their products. BS. The Nosler partition has changed very little since 1948 and most of the changes where not in the basic design
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 9,472
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 9,472 |
Brad,
Again, I can respect and accept that you have your experiences and that of friends you trust. But I also have a reasonably significant amount of experience with Barnes bullets (as I said, very close to 150 head of big game), and that doesn't take into account the handful of trusted friends, family members, and hunting buddies that have also used Barnes bullets to some extent without me being present. None of us have experienced what you describe with regards to failures of Barnes bullets. Even when they perform as designed, monos don't always do as much damage as other bullets, but I've never seen one fail to expand at all, based on wound channels. You say you've never had a lead bullet fail, but I have witnessed a few. Sort of the inverse situation to this Barnes discussion. I really don't think either of us is drawing on a large enough sample size to make any definitive claims, considering that we are making observations of results with many variables at play in an uncontrolled environment.
The original X bullet and TSX had a fairly small HP opening, but that is not the case with the TTSX and LRX. Actually, the tipped bullets have a fairly substantial cavity.
As far as embracing a "belief system" goes, I'm not partial or loyal to any brand or type of bullet, and in fact, I currently use a few different bullets on game. If a bullet comes along that meets my criteria better than what I'm currently using, I'll gladly switch. To the contrary, I choose to embrace statistically sound scientific analysis, which neither of us has done, and that is why you don't see me making any bold claims like yours. I'm not claiming any sort of universal behaviour or failure rates of the current offerings of Barnes bullets (or any others), and simply stick to reporting my observations based on a reasonably substantial, but certainly not definitive, sample size.
I am also okay with disagreeing with others, even people that I very much respect, based on a difference of observations and experiences. Conversation would be pretty dull if everybody just nodded their head all the time. I'm not sure how much experience Pat has with Barnes (I know he's seen a ton of Scenars on game), but he certainly falls into the category of people that I highly respect. That doesn't change the fact that I've seen quite a few head of game killed with Barnes, and the conclusions I've made based on my observations may differ with other people who have also seen a number of game killed with the same bullets. Plastic tips and the resulting larger cavity in the nose of the bullet helps them expand. However, the fact remains that they are still much harder than a lead and copper bullet.
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Joined: Nov 2018
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Campfire Regular
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Unfortunately the perfect bullet that preforms 100% of the time under all circumstances doesn’t exist yet .
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Joined: Sep 2005
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Campfire Tracker
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Joined: Sep 2005
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Good post Jordan, I am somewhat in the same camp as you except that now days loading for 12+ rifles in many different cartridges for hunting, I load only TTSX's or LRX's as I too like to keep things simple when they work for me.
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Campfire Tracker
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Nothing makes up for pizz poor shooting. One thing to also consider with the TSX is that if it hits grass or twigs, etc., the tip cavity may clog and the hydraulic pressure required for expansion isn’t going to occur. Try shooting a TSX into dry paper or wood and see what happens. Want to make some armor piercing rounds? Fill the TSX hollowpoint with epoxy or JB Weld.
Life Member NRA, RMEF, American Legion, MAGA. Not necessarily in that order.
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Joined: Aug 2006
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I am never completely sold on any particular bullet BUT the TTSX has never failed myself or others I hunt with. Maybe it's because we all shoot high velocity type cartridges or maybe other reasons but the bullets have never failed to perform as advertised. We've not taken or seen them used on 100s of animals but we have used them enough to gain a healthy level of confidence in them and make them first choice for any future hunting of elk or other large game. That said, I can understand the position Brad has taken about them, I have taken that same one with Nosler Accubonds, one of the favorites of many here on this forum. Years ago when my friend Allen Day and I tried them we both had some miserable performances with them and we both swore we'd never hunt with them again. Been 15 years and I still haven't and won't bother with them thanks to bullets like the TTSX and others.
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 9,472
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
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Nothing makes up for pizz poor shooting. One thing to also consider with the TSX is that if it hits grass or twigs, etc., the tip cavity may clog and the hydraulic pressure required for expansion isn’t going to occur. Try shooting a TSX into dry paper or wood and see what happens. Want to make some armor piercing rounds? Fill the TSX hollowpoint with epoxy or JB Weld. I can say for certain that TSX's expand just fine in dry news paper.
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Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 37,178 Likes: 5
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 37,178 Likes: 5 |
Unfortunately the perfect bullet that preforms 100% of the time under all circumstances doesn’t exist yet .
Well, maybe as soon as we can identify the "perfect hunter", a "perfect bullet" won't be that far behind... DF
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Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 132
Campfire Member
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Campfire Member
Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 132 |
Nothing makes up for pizz poor shooting. One thing to also consider with the TSX is that if it hits grass or twigs, etc., the tip cavity may clog and the hydraulic pressure required for expansion isn’t going to occur. Try shooting a TSX into dry paper or wood and see what happens. Want to make some armor piercing rounds? Fill the TSX hollowpoint with epoxy or JB Weld. I can say for certain that TSX's expand just fine in dry news paper. Yeah that'll work just fine the next time you see the classifieds running through the woods.
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Joined: Nov 2015
Posts: 1,786
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Nothing makes up for pizz poor shooting. One thing to also consider with the TSX is that if it hits grass or twigs, etc., the tip cavity may clog and the hydraulic pressure required for expansion isn’t going to occur. Try shooting a TSX into dry paper or wood and see what happens. Want to make some armor piercing rounds? Fill the TSX hollowpoint with epoxy or JB Weld. I can say for certain that TSX's expand just fine in dry news paper. Yeah that'll work just fine the next time you see the classifieds running through the woods. Sounds like a clear and meaningful refutation of the bolded part of the quote...so your snark is entirely inappropriate.
USMC 0351
We know the price of everything and the value of nothing.
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Joined: Feb 2001
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Feb 2001
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I find it amusing so many with much experience find such different results. As I have stated many times I have never personally caught any iteration of X bullet and I have never seen an Accubond exit. In total that accounts for hundreds of dead critters. I know many that have found exactly the same results.
The few X bullets I have seen recovered were small bullets in very large critters. The numbers of appropriately-sized Accubonds I have personally watched in use get caught far-exceeds all of the recovered X bullets I have seen. One example is a very large Kodiak bear with a single 270gr .375 TTSX at 60 yards. The bullet went lengthwise through the bear and exited. Four 300gr .375 Accubonds, broadside, stuck around.
Many, many more examples could be laid out as anecdotal evidence, but the stark contrast with hundreds of bullets tells me something very unusual is happening with physics... or...
Big thing for me is the difference in meat loss and I find that huge. The lack of lead particles is just a side benie.
Mark Begich, Joaquin Jackson, and Heller resistance... Three huge reasons to worry about the NRA.
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I like lots of meat loss. This means that temporary Stretch cavity turned into a permanent stretch cavity with everything in side being jello. I don't hunt bears, if I did, I would not want solids.
My experience with Ttsx is mixed with various calibers at various distances.
IF you have plenty of clear field to watch an animal run, then the TTSX is grand.
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Joined: Feb 2001
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Feb 2001
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I like lots of meat loss. This means that temporary Stretch cavity turned into a permanent stretch cavity with everything in side being jello. I don't hunt bears, if I did, I would not want solids.
My experience with Ttsx is mixed with various calibers at various distances.
IF you have plenty of clear field to watch an animal run, then the TTSX is grand. Just shaking my head and laughing!
Last edited by Sitka deer; 02/17/20.
Mark Begich, Joaquin Jackson, and Heller resistance... Three huge reasons to worry about the NRA.
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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Only here folks argue about what works for them... 😂😂
It's like arguing about what kinda woman a guy likes.haha
Ping pong balls for the win. Once you've wrestled everything else in life is easy. Dan Gable I keep my circle small, I’d rather have 4 quarters than 100 pennies.
Ain’t easy havin pals.
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Campfire Outfitter
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I find it amusing so many with much experience find such different results. As I have stated many times I have never personally caught any iteration of X bullet and I have never seen an Accubond exit. In total that accounts for hundreds of dead critters. I know many that have found exactly the same results.
The few X bullets I have seen recovered were small bullets in very large critters. The numbers of appropriately-sized Accubonds I have personally watched in use get caught far-exceeds all of the recovered X bullets I have seen. One example is a very large Kodiak bear with a single 270gr .375 TTSX at 60 yards. The bullet went lengthwise through the bear and exited. Four 300gr .375 Accubonds, broadside, stuck around.
Many, many more examples could be laid out as anecdotal evidence, but the stark contrast with hundreds of bullets tells me something very unusual is happening with physics... or...
Big thing for me is the difference in meat loss and I find that huge. The lack of lead particles is just a side benie. I've never caught a AB, but have caught one TTSX and I picked a TSX out of the ground after it passed through a deer and a frozen sugar beat. I only use Monos because of your last sentence.
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Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
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I like lots of meat loss. This means that temporary Stretch cavity turned into a permanent stretch cavity with everything in side being jello. I don't hunt bears, if I did, I would not want solids.
My experience with Ttsx is mixed with various calibers at various distances.
IF you have plenty of clear field to watch an animal run, then the TTSX is grand. Just shaking my head and laughing! This...
Life Member NRA, RMEF, American Legion, MAGA. Not necessarily in that order.
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Posts: 20,813
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 20,813 |
I like lots of meat loss. This means that temporary Stretch cavity turned into a permanent stretch cavity with everything in side being jello. I don't hunt bears, if I did, I would not want solids.
My experience with Ttsx is mixed with various calibers at various distances.
IF you have plenty of clear field to watch an animal run, then the TTSX is grand. Just shaking my head and laughing! This... Not worth the shake or a wasted laugh....
laissez les bons temps rouler
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Joined: Jun 2003
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 42,632 Likes: 2 |
I am never completely sold on any particular bullet BUT the TTSX has never failed myself or others I hunt with. Maybe it's because we all shoot high velocity type cartridges or maybe other reasons but the bullets have never failed to perform as advertised. We've not taken or seen them used on 100s of animals but we have used them enough to gain a healthy level of confidence in them and make them first choice for any future hunting of elk or other large game. That said, I can understand the position Brad has taken about them, I have taken that same one with Nosler Accubonds, one of the favorites of many here on this forum. Years ago when my friend Allen Day and I tried them we both had some miserable performances with them and we both swore we'd never hunt with them again. Been 15 years and I still haven't and won't bother with them thanks to bullets like the TTSX and others. Excellent post..
A good principle to guide me through life: “This is all I have come to expect, standard lackluster performance. Trust nothing, believe no one and realize it will only get worse…”
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Campfire Tracker
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This^^^^^
Accubonds lovers and Leupold haters!!! 🤣🤣🤣
Life Member NRA, RMEF, American Legion, MAGA. Not necessarily in that order.
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