|
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 7,616
Campfire Outfitter
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 7,616 |
I've heard all my life about bullets just bouncing off of deer, bullets blowing up on a shoulder, etc, etc. I don't believe a word of it. I realize todays bullets are better than yesterday, but I've personally shot old Remington core lokts right through 1/2 mild steel plate at an angle, out of a 308. So, when people tell me about bullets bouncing off deer, I tell them to blow that smoke up somebody else's asz.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 1,597
Campfire Regular
|
Campfire Regular
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 1,597 |
Buddy of mine shot a mule deer buck at a distance of about 150 yards, he was shooting a 270 weatherby with 130 grain sierras. Bullet penetration was 2” at most. Large surface wound though. The shot was low in the front shoulder. 3 witnesses besides the shooter.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 8,873
Campfire Outfitter
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 8,873 |
But we aren't talking about bullets as new as Corelokts .In 1948 John Nosler invented the Partition for the cure of the very problem of bullets that wouldn't hold up . Just because you weren't alive and hunting,shooting big game back then doesn't mean it didn't happen. I started shooting center fire rifles when I was 14 with my own hand loads pre-interlock Hornady 139 gr SP's. They came apart pretty easy. The improved Intetrlock was much less fragile.When I went to work up the loads for my 1st deer hunt I never gave it a 2nd thought and stepped up to 140 gr NPT's and that was just a7x57 .Going to the 7 mag proved the same all over .That was50 years ago and since then I've used a lot of cup and core bullets on a lot of game and I still never ever hold for a near shoulder shot ,I all ways try for a far houlder shot simply cause I want the vitals before I'll risk the bullet making thru heavy bones. MB
" Cheapest velocity in the world comes from a long barrel and I sure do like them. MB "
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 30,903
Campfire 'Bwana
|
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 30,903 |
I've heard all my life about bullets just bouncing off of deer, bullets blowing up on a shoulder, etc, etc. I don't believe a word of it. I realize todays bullets are better than yesterday, but I've personally shot old Remington core lokts right through 1/2 mild steel plate at an angle, out of a 308. So, when people tell me about bullets bouncing off deer, I tell them to blow that smoke up somebody else's asz. Shooting steel has nothing in common with shooting game. A 22-250 varmint bullet goes through steel but not a bore hog.
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 28,752
Campfire Ranger
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 28,752 |
There's a similar Elmer story about him wearing down a coyote at long range with a .25/35.
What fresh Hell is this?
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 2,595
Campfire Regular
|
Campfire Regular
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 2,595 |
I bought a copy of Hell I Was There in the mid 80s at a local gun show. I bet I've read it 10 times. One of the amazing things about Elmer to me, was that he survived burns in an arson set house fire that would have killed most people. Also, he was a small man by most standards physically. Wore size 5 Cowboys boots. Small in stature, but huge in the life he lead!
Ron
People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf. Orwell
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 60,086
Campfire Kahuna
|
OP
Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 60,086 |
mirage243,
The other guys already made some excellent comments about bullets "blowing up" and not penetrating big game, but I'll provide another example. 30-some years ago I shot an eating size mule deer buck at around 200 yards with a .30-06 and a 150-grain Winchester Silvertip factory load. The buck was quartering toward me and the bullet hit the shoulder joint--a I found out later. At the shot the buck quickly hobbled over a low ridge right behind him. I started following the thin blood trail, and half a mile later found him standing broadside in the sagebrush, again at about 200 yards. Put another bullet behind the shoulder, and the buck went down. The first Silvertip had come apart on the buck's shoulder joint, and aside from a few fragments of lead, all that I found was the empty jack resting against the ribcage, where it hadn't even broken a rib.
Have also seen a 300-grain bonded 9.3mm bullet flatten out so much on the shoulder joint of a bull water buffalo that, again, the remains of the bullet (consisting of just about half the original weight) stopped on the outside of the ribcage. My hunting partner was doing the shooting, and a couple more of the 300s did basically the same thing, when shot into other parts of the bull's anatomy. There had to be some fault in the bonding process, as that particular brand of bullet is normally very reliable.
There have been several more instances over the decades, but the main point is that just because YOU have never seen it happen does not mean it cannot happen.
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.” John Steinbeck
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 7,616
Campfire Outfitter
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 7,616 |
I killed my first deer in 1971, so I obviously haven't been around as long as Elmer Keith and Jack OConnor, etc, etc. but, I have carried a rifle in the front seat of my truck every single day of my life, it's a way of life for me, a necessity in what I do, and I love shooting. Rarely a day goes by that I don't at least ding a crow or something, coyotes, ground hogs, something. I said all that to say that most folks don't truly understand the devestation any high powered rifle posseses. The last time I went and found a deer for a guy who claimed his bullet musta "blew up" when it hit the deer, I actually found the deer dead about a 1/2 mile from where it was shot, the dumbasz forgot about the 6 inch spruce tree it went through before it hit the deer. I took him back and showed it to him, he couldn't believe it. Most claims of the bullet not doing it's job can be traced back to the trigger finger.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 60,086
Campfire Kahuna
|
OP
Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 60,086 |
I have also heard people say they shot a deer right in the heart, but the lousy cartridge they used (and never will again) wasn't enough.
But I am not talking about "guessing" that bullets came apart and failed to penetrate an animal. As noted, I have seen a number instances where that was PROVED to be what happened. Again, just because YOU haven't seen it doesn't mean it can't happen.
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.” John Steinbeck
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2017
Posts: 388
Campfire Member
|
Campfire Member
Joined: Dec 2017
Posts: 388 |
Mr Keith was a kind and decent man. I met him several times, after the first meeting he always remembered me and we talked a lot. The times he grew up in and worked as a young man were tough beyond belief. His cast bullets of 16:1 were from pulled 45/70 government issued ammo. He hunted with military 30/06 ammo probably because that was all he could get or afford. Take a trip to Durkee Oregon or Winston Montana and tell us how easy life is there now let alone in the pre war years. Or wander north of Avon Montana and see how far he walked in a snowstorm before he saw a light in a cabin. Elmer Keith taught me a lot about ballistics, my father taught me to shoot. I owe them both
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 60,086
Campfire Kahuna
|
OP
Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 60,086 |
Yep, he grew up in a different time.
However, life around Winston, Montana is easier now than then. I live 13 miles from Winston, and little closer than that to the the former Keith ranch. For one thing, we have four-wheel-drive pickups!
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.” John Steinbeck
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2017
Posts: 388
Campfire Member
|
Campfire Member
Joined: Dec 2017
Posts: 388 |
In the paper back “Letters” book, he wrote about buying some sharps rifles and picking them up by wagon.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 60,086
Campfire Kahuna
|
OP
Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 60,086 |
Yep, evidently the Keith family traveled to Helena (about 20 miles from Winston, and the nearest "big" town by horse or wagon most of the time.
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.” John Steinbeck
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 8,873
Campfire Outfitter
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 8,873 |
JB any truth to the old Montana rumor that EK got you on the good guy list over at Capitol Sports and Western wear? MB
" Cheapest velocity in the world comes from a long barrel and I sure do like them. MB "
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 60,086
Campfire Kahuna
|
OP
Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 60,086 |
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.” John Steinbeck
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 12,329
Campfire Outfitter
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 12,329 |
Elmer must have had a laser range finder to know that 600 yard distance and then write about it.
IIRC, he later went back with a surveyor friend and the measured the distance with a chain. (?) I've heard of that term before but have no clue what or how it's done. Paul B.
Our forefathers did not politely protest the British.They did not vote them out of office, nor did they impeach the king,march on the capitol or ask permission for their rights. ----------------They just shot them. MOLON LABE
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 12,329
Campfire Outfitter
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 12,329 |
JB. That quote appears to be vebatim from Keith's firise biograpy "Keith, An Autobiograpy" which is is said he hated. (Pages 258, 259 and 261.) I have that on, Hell I Was There and Sixguns plus a few of his earlier works. Paul B.
Our forefathers did not politely protest the British.They did not vote them out of office, nor did they impeach the king,march on the capitol or ask permission for their rights. ----------------They just shot them. MOLON LABE
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 5,840
Campfire Tracker
|
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 5,840 |
IIRC, he later went back with a surveyor friend and the measured the distance with a chain. (?) I've heard of that term before but have no clue what or how it's done. Paul B. A Gunters or surveyors chain is a 66 foot distance measuring device used along a compass line or along a series of survey markers, stakes or ribbons. Originally made up of 100 links of equal length, now a steel tape is used, if and when they use an actual chain and not an EDM device. A quarter chain (25 links) is a rod (16.5 feet), 10 chains is a furlong and 80 chains is a mile.
Chronographs, bore scopes and pattern boards have broke a lot of hearts.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 8,873
Campfire Outfitter
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 8,873 |
PJ , a surveyor's chain is a flat steel tape. Normal one commonly used was 100yds (300') but longer and shorter ones were used also. 1 st foot is marked in inches and fractions the rest by the foot. They are very accurate used correctly. MB Mart has done a much better job describing it than I have.
Last edited by Magnum_Bob; 02/25/20.
" Cheapest velocity in the world comes from a long barrel and I sure do like them. MB "
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 5,840
Campfire Tracker
|
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 5,840 |
My dad had an original linked chain when we had the farm. He used it occasionally. In later years I used a steel tape surveyor's chain to survey trails for the forest service.
Folks don't use the old units of measurement much anymore. Can't recall the that time I heard some one use rods, and one rarely hears the term furlong outside of horse racing. My granddad used to to refer to rods as a unit of measurement but I never heard it much from other than him.
Chronographs, bore scopes and pattern boards have broke a lot of hearts.
|
|
|
|
271 members (10Glocks, 10ring1, 160user, 12344mag, 2500HD, 1eyedmule, 21 invisible),
1,765
guests, and
1,048
robots. |
Key:
Admin,
Global Mod,
Mod
|
|
Forums81
Topics1,191,389
Posts18,469,819
Members73,931
|
Most Online11,491 Jul 7th, 2023
|
|
|
|