Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Ask The Gunwriters Elmer Keith 600-yard mule deer

Didn't want to interfere with the .45 Colt-on-elk thread, so posted this for those who might want to know why Elmer Keith claimed to have shot at a wounded mule deer buck a long way off with a .44 Magnum revolver, instead of just walking up and finishing it off:

Paul Kriley and I hunted up Clear Creek on the right side where it is partly open bunch grass meadows and partly patches of timber. We hunted all day, and although we saw several does at 80-90 yards, one at 60, that I could have killed. We passed them up, as I wanted a buck. Toward evening we topped out on a ridge. There was a swale between us and another small ridge on the side of the mountain slope about 300-400 yards away. Beyond that, out on the open sidehill, no doubt on account of the cougar, were about 20 mule deer, feeding. Two big bucks were in the band, and some lesser ones, the rest were does and long fawns. As it was getting late and the last day of the season, I wanted one of those bucks for meat. Being a half-mile away, I told Paul, “Take the .300 Magnum and duck back through this swale to that next ridge and that should put you within about 500 yards of them. I’ll stay here (the deer had seen us), let them watch me for a decoy.” Paul said, “You take the rifle.”
“I said, how is it sighted?”
He said, “one inch high at a hundred yards.” I told him to go ahead because I wouldn’t know where to hold it. I always sighted a .300 Magnum 3 inches high at a hundred and I wouldn’t know where to hold it at 500.
I said, “You go ahead and kill the biggest buck in the bunch for me.” Paul took off, went across the swale and climbed the ridge, laid down and crawled up to the top. He shot. The lower of the two bucks, which he later said was the biggest one, dropped and rolled down the mountain. I then took off across the swale to join him. Just before I climbed up the ridge to where he was lying, he started shooting again.

When I came up on top, the band of deer was pretty well long gone. They’d gone out to the next ridge top, turned up it slightly and went over. But the old buck was up following their trail, one front leg a-swinging. Paul had hit it. I asked Paul, “Is there any harm in me getting into this show?” He said, “No, go ahead.”

I had to lay down prone, because if I crawled over the hill to assume my old backside positioning, then the blast of his gun would be right in my ear. Shooting prone with a .44 Magnum is something I don’t like at all. The concussion is terrific. It will just about bust your ear drums every time. At any rate Paul shot and missed. I held all of the front sight up, or practically all of it, and perched the running deer on top of the front sight and squeezed one off. Paul said, “I saw it through my scope. It hit in the mud and snow right below him.” There was possibly six inches of wet snow, with muddy ground underneath. I told him “I won’t be low the next shot.” Paul shot again and missed with his .300 Magnum. The next time I held all of the front sight up and a bit of the ramp, just perched the deer on top. After the shot the gun came down out of recoil and the bullet had evidently landed. The buck made a high buck-jump, swapped ends, and came back toward us, shaking his head. I told Paul I must have hit a horn. I asked him to let the buck come back until he was right on us if he would, let him come as close as he would and I’d jump up and kill him. When he came back to where Paul had first rolled him, out about 500 yards, Paul said, “I could hit him now, I think.”

“Well,” I said, “I don’t like to see a deer run on three legs. Go ahead.” He shot again and missed. The buck swapped ends and turned around and went back right over the same trail. Paul said, “I’m out of ammunition. Empty.” I told him to reload, duck back out of sight, go on around the hill and head the old buck off, and I’d chase him on around. Paul took off on a run to go around this bunch-grass hill and get up above the buck and on top. He was young, husky, and could run like a deer himself. I got on the old buck again with all of the front sight and a trifle of the ramp up. Just as I was going to squeeze it off when he got to the ridge, he turned up it just as the band of deer had done. So I moved the sight picture in front of him and shot. After an interval he went down and out of sight. I didn’t think anything of it, thought he had just tipped over the ridge. It took me about half an hour to get across. When I got over there to the ridge, I saw where he’d rolled down the hill about fifty yards, bleeding badly, and then he’d gotten up and walked from the tracks to the ridge in front of us. There were a few pine trees down below, so I cut across to intercept his tracks. I could see he was bleeding out both sides.

Just before I got to the top of the ridge, I heard a shot up above me and then another shot, and I yelled and asked if it was Paul. He answered. I asked, “Did you get him?” He said, “Yes, he’s down there by that big pine tree below you. Climb a little higher and you can see him.” Paul came down and we went down to the buck. Paul said the buck was walking along all humped up very slowly. He held back of the shoulders as he was quartering away. The first shot went between his forelegs and threw up snow. Then he said the buck turned a little more away from him and he held higher and dropped him. Finally we parted the hair in the right flank and found where the 180-grain needle-pointed Remington spitzer had gone in. Later I determined it blew up and lodged in the left shoulder. At any rate I looked his horns over, trying to see where I’d hit a horn. No sign of it. Finally I found a bullet hole back of the right jaw and it came out of the top of his nose. That was the shot I’d hit him with out at 600 yards. Then Paul said, “Who shot him through the lungs broadside? I didn’t, never had that kind of shot at all.” There was an entrance hole fairly high on the right side of the rib cage just under the spine and an exit just about three or four inches lower on the other side. The deer had been approximately the same elevation as I was when I fired that last shot at him. We dressed him, drug him down the trail on Clear Creek, hung him up, and went on down to the ranch. The next day a man named Posy and I came back with a pack horse, loaded him and took him in. I took a few pictures of him hanging in the woodshed along with the Smith & Wesson .44 Mag.

I took him home and hung him up in the garage. About ten days later my son Ted came home from college and I told him, “Ted, go out and skin that big buck and get us some chops. They should be well-ripened and about right for dinner tonight.” After awhile Ted came in and he laid the part jacket of a Remington bullet on the table beside me and he said, “Dad, I found this right beside the exit hole on the left side of that buck’s ribs.” Then I knew that I had hit him at that long range two out of four times. I believe I missed the first shot, we didn’t see it at all, and it was on the second that Paul said he saw snow and mud fly up at his heels. I wrote it up and I’ve been called a liar ever since, but Paul Kriley is still alive and able to vouch for the facts.

Elmer Keith

From the book "Hell, I was There"?

Love that story. Thanks for bringing it back out.

It was quite likely that he could do it. He used to practice daily with 45ACP produced at his Armoury during WW2. Supposedly one of the Brass came in and told him that his guns weren't up to spec. He grabbed one on the assembly line went out to the range and proceeded to hit targets out to 300 yards. He spent much of his youth shooting handguns in the field so it is not as farsighted as would be thought.

I shot a mulligan moose near a pond that was alongside of the Denali Highway when I was in high school. It was at about 150 yards and I had a key marked line on the gun and aimed it above the shoulder. It hit the moose in the shoulder and through the heart and completely knocked him over. It was very early in the morning (4:30AM) and I was very well versed with using the Ruger Super Blackhawk 44 Rem Mag with Garrett style harden lead 325 grain bullets at 1350 FPS. I had DLPed a Grizzly earlier that Summer with it. I has also shot several owls and foxes that had attempted to kill our chickens. I didn't have a rifle on me and the little bull was in the right place to butcher(out of the water on a flat).

I don't claim to be a great pistolero. I would have shot it with a rifle everytime if I had one present. But it was the right tool in the hand and the right opportunity and I bet that was Keith's take on it.

Nice story. I enjoy reading tales from the wild.

An old retired bush pilot friend was telling me about flying Elmer Keith out hunting and how they had landed on ice in NW Alaska where there were several caribou.
The pilot said Elmer did kill a caribou at some extreme range with his handgun as told in one of his books.

Don't how "extreme" the shot was on the caribou, but it was with an early .41 Magnum. As I recall the range was maybe 150 yards--thought that's still pretty long with a sixgun.

I believe the story is in HELL, I WAS THERE! Might check and see if I can find it.

Elmer must have had a laser range finder to know that 600 yard distance and then write about it.

I always believed Keith after years of reading Guns and Ammo. Jeff Cooper was the other writer I always read. I knew he was man, but he seemed above human in thought. I still miss both writers. Be Well, Rustyzipper.

I grew up reading Elmer when I was a boy in Iowa. Fortunately my Dad sold his shop and moved us to Alaska in 1965 so I could eventually get my own .338 Win. Mag. and S&W .44 Mag. and good cigars. Thank you Elmer once again for the stories. If Elmer said it happened that is good enough for me.

Next time I am in Idaho and some one can show me where the shot was made I will laser range find it. Once I verify it if some one will loan me a .44 and furnish the ammo I will devote and afternoon to trying to hit a like size target and share the results here. Bring lots of ammo if I'm doing the shooting.

I should pull out my old "Hell, I was there" book and read it again. Elmer did some hunting in the Slana River area about the time we started building my parents home by the Slana River. Oh Lord, how I miss those days and the freedom and listening to the old guides stories. Bill Alice, Don DeHart, Doc Taylor, Bud Conkle, Maynard Perkins, Duncan Gilchrist, Keith Johnson, Roy Biffel and the old guide from England, Harry Boyden was still alive down the road. So sorry I was to stupid young to go meet and talk to him.

I better strap my S&W .44 Mountain Gun on and have a cigar.

years upon years in the open west, gauging distances and shooting untold thousands of rounds, Yeah he had a laser range finder, his eyes and brain.

deerstalker,

Keith also did a LOT of target shooting, at ranges out to 1000 yards, from the time he was a teenager, including competing at Camp Perry with the Idaho National Guard team.

He also was indeed very good with a sixgun. Ross Seyfried knew Elmer pretty well, and not only handloaded and shot with him, but hunted with him some. He told me about Elmer killing a porcupine at somewhere around 80 yards with whatever sixgun he was packing at the time, one-handed from the back of a horse. The thing that impressed Ross (who is a very good handgun shot) is Elmer took the shot, then just holstered his gun--because he knew the shot was good.

From a friend who hunted with Elmer near Glenwood Springs, Colo. Around camp my friend saw 2 hawks flying well above camp and circling. He challenged Elmer to try a shot. With a 4" barreled 41 Magnum the first shot missed. My friend made a snide remark then Elmer fired 2 more shots and killed both. My friend has a picture of himself giving Elmer a haircut in a tent on this elk hunt.

MD, nice to see this reliable info. published about Elmer.. I don't think most have any idea how many thousands and thousands of rounds of pistol ammo he fired in his life time.. When he was in Durkee, Ore. he did a lot of long range stuff at an old outhouse.. There will never be another Elmer.. He sure was one of a kind.. Thanks for the good report on his mule deer.. I always felt he never got the respect due .. He was a fantastic shot with rifle , shotguns, or pistols..

I met Elmer in the Peterson magazine booth at the Shot Show, not at all like I'd imagine he'd be after reading many of his magazine stories. He was rather quiet and softspoken, quite the gentleman I regret not getting him to autograph one of his books when I had the opportunity.

I think Elmer wrote something about becoming good at long range shooting with a colt saa. He spent a bunch of time herding sheep and he would fire his pistol in front of the lead ewe to steer her in the desired direction. The book “Hell I was there” should be required reading, before joining the campfire. The story about the bully is without a doubt my favorite.

I think the moral of that story is, if you come across an old outhouse in your travels, don’t use it, step behind some bushes.

Thanks Mule Deer ! Always enjoyed reading Elmer’s books and articles.

I wanna hear more about the shot from the 300 Win Mag that blew up on the shoulder, then the 44 mag went almost all the way through it at 600 yards. 😁😁

Not much story to tell early jacketed bullets didn't all ways hold together well and some came a part easier than the good bullets we enjoy today. ELMER cast most of his bullets with 1 in16 tin to lead ,he said it was the best alloy for the44mag. That day he was using some pre_production Remington 240 gr jacketed ammo that Remington sent him. Read Hell, I was there and you might learn a few things. MB

I've heard all my life about bullets just bouncing off of deer, bullets blowing up on a shoulder, etc, etc. I don't believe a word of it. I realize todays bullets are better than yesterday, but I've personally shot old Remington core lokts right through 1/2 mild steel plate at an angle, out of a 308. So, when people tell me about bullets bouncing off deer, I tell them to blow that smoke up somebody else's asz.

Buddy of mine shot a mule deer buck at a distance of about 150 yards, he was shooting a 270 weatherby with 130 grain sierras. Bullet penetration was 2” at most. Large surface wound though. The shot was low in the front shoulder. 3 witnesses besides the shooter.

But we aren't talking about bullets as new as Corelokts .In 1948 John Nosler invented the Partition for the cure of the very problem of bullets that wouldn't hold up . Just because you weren't alive and hunting,shooting big game back then doesn't mean it didn't happen. I started shooting center fire rifles when I was 14 with my own hand loads pre-interlock Hornady 139 gr SP's. They came apart pretty easy. The improved Intetrlock was much less fragile.When I went to work up the loads for my 1st deer hunt I never gave it a 2nd thought and stepped up to 140 gr NPT's and that was just a7x57 .Going to the 7 mag proved the same all over .That was50 years ago and since then I've used a lot of cup and core bullets on a lot of game and I still never ever hold for a near shoulder shot ,I all ways try for a far houlder shot simply cause I want the vitals before I'll risk the bullet making thru heavy bones. MB

Shooting steel has nothing in common with shooting game. A 22-250 varmint bullet goes through steel but not a bore hog.

There's a similar Elmer story about him wearing down a coyote at long range with a .25/35.

I bought a copy of Hell I Was There in the mid 80s at a local gun show. I bet I've read it 10 times. One of the amazing things about Elmer to me, was that he survived burns in an arson set house fire that would have killed most people. Also, he was a small man by most standards physically. Wore size 5 Cowboys boots. Small in stature, but huge in the life he lead!

Ron

mirage243,

The other guys already made some excellent comments about bullets "blowing up" and not penetrating big game, but I'll provide another example. 30-some years ago I shot an eating size mule deer buck at around 200 yards with a .30-06 and a 150-grain Winchester Silvertip factory load. The buck was quartering toward me and the bullet hit the shoulder joint--a I found out later. At the shot the buck quickly hobbled over a low ridge right behind him. I started following the thin blood trail, and half a mile later found him standing broadside in the sagebrush, again at about 200 yards. Put another bullet behind the shoulder, and the buck went down. The first Silvertip had come apart on the buck's shoulder joint, and aside from a few fragments of lead, all that I found was the empty jack resting against the ribcage, where it hadn't even broken a rib.

Have also seen a 300-grain bonded 9.3mm bullet flatten out so much on the shoulder joint of a bull water buffalo that, again, the remains of the bullet (consisting of just about half the original weight) stopped on the outside of the ribcage. My hunting partner was doing the shooting, and a couple more of the 300s did basically the same thing, when shot into other parts of the bull's anatomy. There had to be some fault in the bonding process, as that particular brand of bullet is normally very reliable.

There have been several more instances over the decades, but the main point is that just because YOU have never seen it happen does not mean it cannot happen.

I killed my first deer in 1971, so I obviously haven't been around as long as Elmer Keith and Jack OConnor, etc, etc. but, I have carried a rifle in the front seat of my truck every single day of my life, it's a way of life for me, a necessity in what I do, and I love shooting. Rarely a day goes by that I don't at least ding a crow or something, coyotes, ground hogs, something. I said all that to say that most folks don't truly understand the devestation any high powered rifle posseses. The last time I went and found a deer for a guy who claimed his bullet musta "blew up" when it hit the deer, I actually found the deer dead about a 1/2 mile from where it was shot, the dumbasz forgot about the 6 inch spruce tree it went through before it hit the deer. I took him back and showed it to him, he couldn't believe it. Most claims of the bullet not doing it's job can be traced back to the trigger finger.

I have also heard people say they shot a deer right in the heart, but the lousy cartridge they used (and never will again) wasn't enough.

But I am not talking about "guessing" that bullets came apart and failed to penetrate an animal. As noted, I have seen a number instances where that was PROVED to be what happened. Again, just because YOU haven't seen it doesn't mean it can't happen.

Mr Keith was a kind and decent man. I met him several times, after the first meeting he always remembered me and we talked a lot.
The times he grew up in and worked as a young man were tough beyond belief. His cast bullets of 16:1 were from pulled 45/70 government issued ammo. He hunted with military 30/06 ammo probably because that was all he could get or afford. Take a trip to Durkee Oregon or Winston Montana and tell us how easy life is there now let alone in the pre war years. Or wander north of Avon Montana and see how far he walked in a snowstorm before he saw a light in a cabin.
Elmer Keith taught me a lot about ballistics, my father taught me to shoot. I owe them both

Yep, he grew up in a different time.

However, life around Winston, Montana is easier now than then. I live 13 miles from Winston, and little closer than that to the the former Keith ranch. For one thing, we have four-wheel-drive pickups!

In the paper back “Letters” book, he wrote about buying some sharps rifles and picking them up by wagon.

Yep, evidently the Keith family traveled to Helena (about 20 miles from Winston, and the nearest "big" town by horse or wagon most of the time.

JB any truth to the old Montana rumor that EK got you on the good guy list over at Capitol Sports and Western wear? MB

HA!

IIRC, he later went back with a surveyor friend and the measured the distance with a chain. (?) I've heard of that term before but have no clue what or how it's done.
Paul B.

JB. That quote appears to be vebatim from Keith's firise biograpy "Keith, An Autobiograpy" which is is said he hated. (Pages 258, 259 and 261.) I have that on, Hell I Was There and Sixguns plus a few of his earlier works.
Paul B.

A Gunters or surveyors chain is a 66 foot distance measuring device used along a compass line or along a series of survey markers, stakes or ribbons. Originally made up of 100 links of equal length, now a steel tape is used, if and when they use an actual chain and not an EDM device. A quarter chain (25 links) is a rod (16.5 feet), 10 chains is a furlong and 80 chains is a mile.

PJ , a surveyor's chain is a flat steel tape. Normal one commonly used was 100yds (300') but longer and shorter ones were used also. 1 st foot is marked in inches and fractions the rest by the foot. They are very accurate used correctly. MB Mart has done a much better job describing it than I have.

My dad had an original linked chain when we had the farm. He used it occasionally. In later years I used a steel tape surveyor's chain to survey trails for the forest service.

Folks don't use the old units of measurement much anymore. Can't recall the that time I heard some one use rods, and one rarely hears the term furlong outside of horse racing. My granddad used to to refer to rods as a unit of measurement but I never heard it much from other than him.

Mart, when I was farming, the rod was handy for measuring acres.....an acre is a rod wide by half a mile long. Here in MT, many fields (strips when we did strip farming) were half-mile, so you could estimate acres by how many rods your implement covered in one round.

I don't remember what granddad was measuring back then. I was pretty young. I do know he was talking about field work.

In college one of my physics professors had us convert different units of speed to furlongs per fortnight. My 44 Special with a 429421 and 17 grains of 2400 is going roughly 1,451,520,000 fpf (furlongs per fortnight). Makes the old 44 Special sound a little more special.

Good exercise in unit conversions!

I grew up reading this story and many others by Keith, much on handgun shooting/hunting also by Bob Milek and Skeeter.....Hal Swiggett...

Fascinated with those writings, I got heavy into the shooting the 357, 41 and 44 as well as many chamberings in Contenders.

As to a bullet going thru a deer, I punched a deer with a 1,050 mv load, 240 SWC, punched thru like hot butter, they would sail thru a 10' willow tree near a local river, and hit the river with more punch than you'd want to receive. Momentum matters

Last couple of 44s I owned were a pair of 629 with 4" barrels. Friend set up milk jugs for his rifle at 100 and 150 yds, I asked if I could try a few. I busted on on shot #3, and IIRC, the one at 150 yds on the first shot. He called the next week and asked, what barrel length is your 44, 6 inch? I said no, 4. He replied, you better put up your rifles, you are doing better than many. Lol. That was 200 gr Nosler JHP over either H110 or W296, 4 grains under max. The milk jugs exploded, water filled.

My first shot EVER with a TC Contender, was a guy who was a TC nut, and older gent who was a Chemical Engineer. Contenders was about all he shot, mostly 30-30 and 30 Herrett. I did see him break out a S&W model 46 once, similar to the model 41. He offered me to try his Super 14 30-30 on a pepsi can at the backstop, about 115-130 yds at the local range when I was in college. He grinned when he handed it to me, as I was going to make a go OFFHAND. Having been on the Karate team, I knew it as all about the discipline - Sight pic, and squeeze, but ONLY when the sights were on and I could follow thru. It wore a 2x Leupold.....I held a LONG time, steadied my shakes, finally broke the shot, and that can flew up about 15 feet in the air. I turned to hand the gun back to the owner, he was silent, grinning, and his jaw about hit the ground!

Point is, handguns are FAR underestimated in what they CAN Do, and WILL do, when the driver does their part. I have pulled off some shots that a few witnesses were just dumbfounded, of course that goes with rifles as well. Ironically, I was never a great wingshot. Opposite of my Dad. If you spend the time and burn plenty powder, you can become quite proficient at connecting lead with said target.

Those writers and many others, inspired countless hunters and shooters, and we are grateful for their R&D and sharing their knowledge.

Thanks JB and others who have devoted their lives to educating fellow sportsmen and women.

Good post, 65BR.

I've enjoyed this conversation and will use the FPF velocity reference in the future.

Was raised on a diet of Keith, O'Conner et al, seems like a million years ago and have been aware of the story for a long time. Never had cause to question it for any reason. In fact my own experience supports its veracity. When a person become intimately familiar with a particular firearm it is quite unwise to bet against them. I've pulled off a number of stunt shots in my day and have witnessed others do the same. I've won and lost bets over the years in both directions.

I started reading Keith about 74 & have to admit I had doubts. As my gun savvy progressed, Keith was beginning to become the norm. I think I can sort out the times then to the times now & understand the man & the others, plus, the technology available at the time. Happy that I truly enjoy both.

One thing to add, the buck in question was shot with a .300 H & H and 180 Rem. Core loke... The bullet did NOT bounce off, nor did it blow up.. It hit but did not open up.. Just a pencil hole though the animal.. As I remember the incident, Keith did not realize his shot killed the buck, until his son cut some chops from it a month after killing and brought the base cap from the Remington factory load and told Elmer where he found it.. Then he realize he had made the shot at this very long range..

WyoCoyoteHunter,

Apparently you didn't read my post of Elmer's account of what happened, which is the original post in this thread, which confirms what you recollect.

But that's OK. Most Campfire responses are to the header of the thread, because most members also don't read the original post. Or anything else. Apparently the point is to "vote" as quickly as possible.

gunzo,

Maybe a decade ago I decided to test a bunch of Keith's loads, as closely as I could reproduce them as possible in a variety of handguns and rifles--then published an article about the experiment. Basically, they all worked VERY well, which is one reason I tend to believe what he wrote.

But the other reason I tend to believe what he wrote is I've met a number of people who knew Keith, and said he did not BS. He had his biases, for sure, but we all do.

^^^This^^^

Yep

Hell, I was there! Is one of my favorite books for entertaining reading, you can flip to about anywhere in it and find a good story or two. He lived in a fascinating time and place that will probably never return.
As a side note I recently found another copy of the book in excellent shape at an estate sale, where all the books were $1. The deal was even better than I thought when I got home and opened it to find it was signed by the man himself. Not that I needed two copies but for a dollar I couldn’t pass it up.

TheKid, now that was a find! It's probably worth quite a bit in the gun book market.

Didn't Brian Pearce recreate this 600 yard handgun shot successfully?

I like it ...I voted, been voting the same way since I was a ten year old. Dang the new information. Elmer 'n Jack, your keeping it going.

75 years old now, been reading Keith since I was a kid. Back in the late fifties, early sixties dad, my brother and I used to try out some of the stuff we read about. We had access to an old quarry which had a road running straight down the middle for several hundred yards. We would use the old gallon antifreeze cans and thirty gallon grease drums as targets. I learned early that the hold "lean back against the tire and hold the hands between the knees" was a recipe for disaster on a good pair of Levis. As Keith said, you could learn to "walk the rounds" up on a target by watching for the dust to fly and holding up more and more front sight. We used several guns, including a 7 1/2" New Frontier in 45 Colt, a 5 1/2" SAA 357, and my favorite, a 7 1/2" SAA in 44 special. Hits were far fewer than misses but we learned a lot.
Fast forward to about 1980 and dad is gone but little brother and I got together annually either at his place or mine for a day long set of matches. Two targets each with a series of guns, starting with rimfires, then varmint caliber, deer, and bigbore (him 444, me 44-70) all at 100 yards and the first for group, second for score. At the end of the day, we'd each pull out the two handguns we enjoyed most, his being a six inch 66 and a three screw Super Blackhawk, , mine a stainless 1976 Blackhawk 357 and a newer Super.
We had just finished the last targets and were packing up when another shooter drove in to put up targets. We went down together and he remarked at ours having "really big holes, must be big bore rifles, right?" We told him handguns. He said b.s. We put up a new target each (50 yard slowfire pistol) and he put up his paper plate.
Back to the bench. Brother and I each shot five rounds of 44 (my load, 429421, 20 grains H2400, his 429215 gc and 22 grains of H2400). Other guy shot five with his 7 mag. I still have our targets, both with five shots under 5". Not outstanding but normal and quite jarring to the 7mm guy who missed the plate with one round.
At the end of the day, brother and I would get set up at the kitchen table with the targets, calipers, pencil, beers and a pile of quarters and measure, argue and laugh for hours. He is gone, my eyesight is almost, but the memories last. As does the knowledge that handguns can shoot waaaay better than the average person will believe.
I love showing targets from my Contender and my Tracker 17HMR down at the shop with close to MOA groups.
We used to shoot on Monday nights at Hebard's in Knoxville IL, for a while. Old Gil kndw what a handgun could do.

He did. He used an early 29 and vintage ammo.

Interesting thing about Elmer Keith is he was even in a movie. It was a commercial for some outdoor project and it showed some men rafting down a wild river, then later in a camp. The whole thing was maybe 30 seconds long but I'll bet money the little guy with the tall hat and sixgun was no other than Mr. Keith himself. It looks like the film was when he was doing river runs with captain Guleke.

I have made a few, very few longer range shot with the .44 Magnum but probably the two I remember best was one, we were hunting jackrabbits at night and spotted one about 100 yards out in the headlight. The rabbit wasn't spooked and the near eye was glowing like a diamond in bright sunlight. I used the window sill of the truck as a rest and joked with my buddy saying, I'm gonna put that bullet right in his eye. Damned if I didn't do exactly that. The other was while on an elk hunt up on the Olympic Pennnsula. One of the group was a retired judge who absolutely hated handgun in any way shape or form. He said nobody could hit anything past ten feet. WE were on a hill looking down at the Humptulips River and I said to the judge, "$100 says I can come really close to the limb of the tree that's in the water. The splash of the bullet hitting the water will tell how far off I might be." He said a handgun won't even shoot that far. Long story short, I clipped that branch on the first shot and the asked the judge, "You want to go double or nothing?" He declined but did pay me the $100 for the shot.
Paul B.

I have always been more struck by the fact that they set there and peppered the dang mule deer from 600 yards away and made the thing suffer when they weren't up to the shot. I'm certain Elmer could have made the shot with the rifle but Paul emptied the gun at the thing without putting it out of it's misery and even if Elmer got the "killing" shot at that range it didn't have the power to get it over with very quickly. The humane thing wasn't to sit there and take pot shots at it with his revolver. The humane thing would have been to do what my grandfather did when I lamed a white tail when I was 10 years old and it was streaking for the brush, he grabbed the rifle from me and finished it before it got away. People wonder why some are so opposed to hunting---this story right here is exhibit A. While I typically enjoy Elmer's writing, I have never enjoyed this particular story. Of course I typically have not been a fan of Elmer's fondness for raking shots either, but he did grow up with a completely different reason for hunting.

This is where Elmer shot the coyote as a young teen. He was standing near the Capitol and the coyote was up the hill behind it.

[img]https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/g...qOXLVEG4_BdcO-HoaARmXJdSV0M=w664-h533-no[/img]

Well maybe you have a source that says it was a Corelokt but in Hell,I was there on page 201 EK said it was a 180 gr needle-pointed Remington Spitzer and " Finally we parted the hair in the right flank and found where it had gone in" " Later I determined it blew up and lodged in the left shoulder". Page 201. MAYBE ek regarded the corelokt as a needle pointed Spitzer but I think that is how he referred to the Remington Bronze Point and he sure didn't have much use for them. One of the things I've all ways appreciated about EK was his ability to recall the details. MB

Elmer was the guide if I remember correctly. His client was still shooting. It wasn't the guide's place to take his client's rifle and shoot the deer. You're way off base on this. Elmer was an outstanding shot with a handgun.

Both brown elk and king Cobb need to reread the story because you both have it wrong.

Yep, read the first post of this thread--which is Keith's own written story of the incident.

Reading threads (including the original post) before posting an opinion is apparently against the principles of many Campfire members.

I agree with you, I always read the entire thread, on the other hand I can see where one might tire of the drivel. Many on here take the stance of, if you don't agree with me, or blindly follow my guy, then you're a dumbass.

Just reread Elmer's account of this shooting. It still seems irresponsible, When you work as a guide you don't allow the hunter many decisions on his own.
Hunting in our mountains, propelled by your shank's pony you are tired and winded and really have to settle in for a killing shot, putting the .300 shooter prone over your daypack would of been prudent.
If you are not guiding you carry your own long rifle and a tag. We have all done things that went poorly but to put this in a publication , sounds amateurish to me...unless you need to underscore your greatness with a revolver. Puffy, imo
Muledeer- just had to vote- again

comerade,

Keith was NOT guiding a client. He was hunting with a local friend, primarily for meat on the last day of the season.

Somebody else mentioned this being a guided hunt as well. Must admit I am little baffled about how that can be inferred from the story.

Well JB, maybe that is the whole total and sum of it. Blow off reading it and go pass go and form opinions regardless of the facts.? MB

Apparently.

I just Googled Paul Kriley's obituary. He was a VERY local guy, having been born in 1925 about 15 miles north of Salmon in Kriley Gulch--apparently named after his family. "The great outdoors was always his favorite place, his family noted." He passed away in 2004, in Grand View, Idaho, a very small place southwest of Mountain Home.

He was 26 years younger than Elmer Keith. Have read enough other Keith writing to know that he often preferred to go hunting with younger guys as he grew older--which over the past decade or so have also decided was a good idea.

The human encyclopedia of all gun knowledge, Dick Metcalf, wrote this up in a Shooting Times article and changed the mule deer into a cow elk and shortened the 44's barrel to 4". I called him out on it but, as always, was ignored.

Never let facts stand in the way of a good story. Hell, the older I get, the better I was too! Happy Trails

Haha! Hunting and fishing stories are very dynamic and fluid, and subject to frequent change.

Well, I've never been a big fan of gun control advocate Dick Metcalf but EK had SW 29's of all barrel lengths and my guess because it doesn't say, that he was carrying a 4" which he favored or maybe a 6.5". I too have read enough of Keith to know a few things but don't think I could ever get tired of reading Keith. I all ways thought it was many points in his favor that he mentored many younger men on hunting ,shooting and the sporting life. for instance Bob Hagel is an example of that. MB

6" as Keith wrote in Hell, I Was There.

Bob. You are quite right about that Remington bullet..In all probability it was a Bronze Point..

MD, I made my comment based on several posts by other readers.. I did not read all of your quote as I have probably read it 25 times.. I didn't know there was going to be a vote..

Some guy at work today claimed EK killed a crow at 600 yards with a 22 Hornet, I told him I didn't know he was on 24HCF 😁😁

!!!

Thanks much for that VERY informative info....

On January 27 1956 SW 44 Magnum # S147220 was shipped to Elmer Keith in Idaho ,he received it in Feb. It was the 4th 44 Magnum ever made the first SW kept, the 2nd went RHColeman of Remington and the 3 rd to Julian Hatcher of the NRA. Elmer's was a blued 6.5" model. REMINGTON sent him the ammo a couple of weeks later. Same ammo he used to hit the buck with at 600 yds. The ammo was a partially jacketed 240 grain bullet at 1400 fps that Elmer said shot good. Subsequent work with the 429421 swc mold he designed cut by Lyman and others with Hercules 2400 powder gave the shooting and reloding public a "gold std" recipe that is still used today. MB

JB- I was using my personal point of view.
In my 20's & 30's ( still will on occassion)I worked as an Guide for various outfitters and this instinct does not leave me.
It has been imprinted and if I go with others, I always default into this mindset. I want to help them .
I often annoy even myself so I hunt alone.
I have no clue what Elmer was like, and long shooting we know is a developed skill, I have just seen too many Elk missed at close range to believe a 600 yard shot is plausible. Many hunters could not hit a soccer ball at 200 yards without a sandbag. Most rifle's back then were 2" moa shooters( and many not )
My little old opinionated opinion.Cheers

Well further study of page 201 in " Hell, I was There" has a picture of the second mule buck EK took with the 44 Magnum and the caption calls it 6" but if you move to the right column and read it was 6.5" barrel length. This 44 Magnum Has a fairly significant historical provenance as I mentioned in the post above comerade latest post It was indeed a 6.5" barrel. There have been different barrel lengths made for the M29 which is the successor to the "44 Magnum" but from the beginning std barrels were 4" 6.5" and 8 3/8". When SW went from the M29-2 to the M29-3 the engineering changes included deleting the "pinned" barrel to one without, shortened cyl that left the casing rims stick out (non recessed) and the 6.5" barrel went to 6" even. All of these changes were simply to cut production costs.

Papag - re: handgun accuracy you mention, I have a target I shot back in college when I had my 10" 30-30 with 2x Leupold. One day, just for curiosity, I shot a 3-shot group with some 150 Corelokt factory ammo, even though I reloaded....at 50 yds on sandbags.

Folks would not believe it, and I probably would not had I not done it and seen it, but those 3 shots, factory ammo, at 50 yds with a 2x, made a LITTLE BITTY Cloverleaf. I measured it once, best I could.....IIRC it was under .2" C-T-C......literally a 3-shot cloverleaf barely bigger than the little 30 cal holes from those roundnose bullets. Sure makes one question why they reload.....

I never attempted to repeat that group...but on to someone's post above about Coyotes, one day I was driving thru the country, and a Yote was jumping around in the ditch, I stopped quickly, it took off across a muddy cotton field which had been cut down. The field was muddy....I had a Ruger 5.5 MK II target model that I owned since high school (Dad got if for me). I jumped out of the car, racked the slide to chamber a round, and fired a shot over the top of the car while that dog was running way at an angle, I hit low, quickly adjusted my Kentucky windage, and shot over the 2nd shot, by now the dog was about 70 yds running as fast as he could.......and my 3rd shot connected at the base of the skull. He rolled DRT. That all happened WAY Faster than I typed this one sentence! Lol. I have a pic of that dog, with my Ruger in one hand, a wet muddy dog in the other. He was about half grown, not a lot bigger than a mature fox, but that was yet another 'memory' I have of my days when I did quite a bit of handgunning.

Wish I had that on video, it all happened faster then you can imagine....I was shooting 2-hand hold of course, open sights, resting over the top of the car. Afterwards, I realized I locked the door on that old 79 Caprice, with my first born in the back seat sleeping....someone came along in a few minutes and we unlocked it, they took that pic I have. It was a neat moment......my fave Coyote kill.

I only quoted what Keith wrote. 6 1/2" is fine with me. I just know it wasn't 4" as several writers have tried to get us to believe.

Let's assume he had a 1350 fps load, 600 yards would be 55 foot or so holdover, not even trying to factor any wind drift.

Well Mirage 243, I shoot lots of different guns and loads and am constantly amazed at what they will do with practice. The last 15 years or so I've shot a lot black powder cartridge rifles at gong shoots from 100 yds to a mile and as I said the more practice you do the better you get is simply the truth. The shorter your sight radius is, the more elevation you get when you start holding the frt blade over the top of the rear blade. I've shot a pile of lead thru 2 M29 Smiths and 629 as well as a couple of Ruger Super Blackhawks. 4 winters back I went on a buffalo hunt in the Sandhills of Ne. The hunt went ok and I was done the first day. The next day my host asked if I want to shoot some on his Quigley course, I did and we did checked my zero on my 50-140 at 400 yds getting about an 8-9" group. He ask if I was done and I said no I'd like to try my pistol and so I did. He carries a 44 Super Blackhawk for client back up and knows how to use it also. Using the same style of holdover EK described ( yup that is where I got it from) my 1st shot was under the buffalo silhouettes belly the next 5 were on target, no tight group but rang steel 5 in a row. Point 1 I didn't have to worry about wounding a steel target. Point 2 you can't do jack [bleep] if you never even attempt to practice it, so I do and it's all ways fun to try something new. I got a pretty big imagination when it comes to shooting and women, and after 65 years I can damn well tell you it's cheaper to let the imagination run on the shooting than with the women. So quit letting your imagination limit you and get with the program. MB

Are you deliberately trying to be asz?

The early Nosler Balistic Tips were not very sturdy. I saw my friend shoot a WT buck running diagonally away from him. The bullet hit the onside hip and went in about three inches causing a crater about 4-5 inches in diameter. While the deer was knocked down, he required followup shots to kill him. My brother reported about the same, peered over the steep coulee bank and a MD doe was standing below. He shot her between the shoulder blades. Again about a crater like my friends, but due to the location, either there was enough shock to the spine or it was broken. A follow up was required to kill her.

We didn't use the 165 30 caliber BT or 140 284 caliber BT again. This is sacrilege to many here, but I am not impressed with the Nosler Partition. Not a big sample size, but my father shot the WT buck on the shoulder. The whole shoulder was jellified, but the rear of the bullet did kill the deer. Seemed like a huge waste of meat.

You're reading me wrong, I'm agreeing it was a hell of a shot.

I am assuming you calculated these results at sea level, because using the approximate atmospheric conditions around Salmon for that time of year gets 47-50', using a sight-height of 1" above the bore.

Another fact is both Keith and Kriley were shooting uphill, which decreases "drop" considerably. This is contrary to the common belief that shooting uphill increases "drop," even after decades (actually, more than a century) of various people attempting to correct it--including Keith, who more than once explained the need to hold a ghiher whether shooting uphill or down.

Also did some calculating with various degrees of front sight "hold up," and while Keith's story obviously isn't precise about how high he held the front sight, he does mention including some of the ramp. He also had the advantage of being able to see where the shots landed.

Dunno what the range was, but holding the front sight an inch higher with a 6-1/2" barreled .44 Magnum would result in about 30 feet of drop at 500 yards--without the uphill angle, which would decrease drop.

I might also mention the previous post about Brian Pearce reproducing the same shot at an actually lasered 600 yards with the same model of S&W and basically the same loads. I do not doubt this at all, due to having shot at steel gongs about a foot across with Brian (and a couple of other gun writers) at ranges out to 400 a few years ago. The range in question would only allow us to shoot either over a benchrest, or offhand (for some obscure reason), and over a rest (which would be much closer to Keith's shooting) we hit the 400 gongs more often than we missed.

From that we figured out how much front sight to hold over the rear sight, and started whacking away offhand. It was not entirely surprising (given the excellent trigger pull) that we usually came very close, or clanged them.

Yea, since I wasn't there it would be a little difficult to know the exact conditions. I figured an approximation was close enough. What's 5-8 foot when you're talking about 50 feet of holdover. I wonder how he could figure that on the sight blade of a 6 inch gun? I'm thinking he probably didn't have a NF mounted on it. 😂

Ha!

He didn't "figure it." Instead he used his practical knowledge due to considerable practice at long range with revolvers, along with seeing where the first few bullets landed. Then he admitted to some luck!

I believe that Elmer once said about long range handgun shooting is that when you are really good you are close all the time and then you get lucky

That's pretty much been my experience as well--though am sure I'm not usually as close or lucky as he was!

The luckiest shot I ever made was a first-shot whack of a magpie across the Madison River with my father's Colt Frontier Scout when I was 15. That probably used all my luck up!

Until 2 years ago I had never attempted any long range shots on critters. Just never had a reason to. The longest shot I ever took anything at was 210 yards with open sights . 375 winchester. First shot made the doe jump about 4 feet in the air. Next shot entered her right eye . Luck and practice.
2 years ago I got a savage 10 heavy barrel in 223 for the express purpose of cleaning out pasture rats aka ground squirrels from the alfalfa fields.
Just for ghits and siggles I set up at a layered 500 yards to the outside of the colony. That put the bulk of shots from 400 to 500.
I had never ever dreamed I could hit anything at that range.
End of the day I had a 75% kill per shot.
Like my late father in law always said" you will never sink a basket unless you shoot the ball"
Elmer Keith shot the ball many many times.

i have seen some amazing shots made over the years even with a bow so all`s i can say is : old Elmer made one heck of a shot ! the most amazing shot i ever have seen was my wife shot at a large 3D archery target at an unknown distance with a 30 lb. recurve target bow ,using her fingers for the release and she never ever shot very much but it was a nice day and she went with us. she dead centered the 1inch 12 ring at 85 yards.rest of us and no one else at shoot did it either there were about 150 archers at that shoot and we all had powerful compounds. so amazing shooting can happen and it might not even be the best shot but practice usually helps alot . unless your lucky like my dear wife who didn`t have a care in world about the shot only that it was warm ,sun was out and she was just having fun walking along with the rest of us.

Mule Deer;
Good evening to you sir, I hope that this last Leap Day of February finds you and Eileen well.

Since as far back as elementary school, where our principal Mr. Beaton would bring his Guns & Ammo magazines to the school library for us to read - indeed I am that old - I've been a fan of Elmer Keith's writing and story telling abilities.

In "Hell I Was There" I recall that somehow he'd run afoul of a someone in town and his father brought what I considered a huge quantity of lead, black powder and primers so he could practice up a wee bit with his sidearm before heading into town to confront the chap in question.

If memory serves he used to herd sheep by dropping bullets in front of the lead ewes to turn them and the herd.

Anyway, all that's to say some folks get to practice their craft enough to be very, very good at it and the story you related illustrates that. In most activities there's the virtuoso who excels to almost otherworldly ability.

Hopefully this Canuck can be forgiven for believing that the small Montana cowboy could do what he said he did.

Thanks for the thread and a good reason to dig out my copy and re-read it to get some of the above story re-arranged properly in my memory banks.

All the best to you and Eileen as we head into spring.

Dwayne

Great post/topic, John.

My perspective is maybe biased from being third generation Idahoan and having met Elmer more than once...but MORE, from reaching maturity in the late 1970s/early1980s, again, in Idaho. One would have had to have been there to know what an exciting time that was for one primary reason...Elgin Gates and IHMSA. Today a regional or national IHMSA shoot will have a few dozen to a few hundred shooters. In those few years it was so meteoric that some couple of thousand were at the '83 or '84 (can't recall exactly) nationals.

Elgin came to Idaho Falls like a force of nature, and soon EVERYONE was shooting handguns in contorted positions at anything that would stand still long enough to be shot at. It was a magnificent congruence of timing, where the jackrabbit infestation in southern Idaho, that had been going on since the 1920's culminated in the famous "Bunny Bashes" that made world news. At my High School if you didn't have a .44 Mag Model 29 or Super Blackhawk in a holster wired to your truck's emergency brake pedal you were a loser! We'd routinely spend weekends shooting a match then cruising to shoot at Jackrabbits out to the horizon.

That so many posters on this thread are intrigued by a +/- 600 yard .44 Mag hit is actually funny to myself and friends to whom I've directed this thread.

Elgin and his crew, even back then were lobbying for a 500 meter class in IHMSA. They regularly set up such fun shoots with many attendees. This led over the next 30ish years to MANY of the region championships having a 500 meter shoot at the end of the sanctioned matches, before finally, in 2015 it was added as an IHMSA class.

All of the above is kind of convoluted because I have the flu and am drunk on Nyquil, but: even back in the early '80s an accomplished revolver silhouette shooter could plink the 500 meter rams 40ish% of the time.

That Elmer, with his equipment/experience/loads hit an even larger target at 50% isn't even a question in my mind...