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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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I have had all 3. Still have a Henry 44.
I liked the 444 better than than the 45-70, it didn’t kick as much.
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I've owned Marlin lever rifle in all 3 calibers. Without a doubt I'd choose the 45-70
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Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 42,784
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 42,784 |
For me, it would be the 444.... I bought one in 1981, at Mills Fleet and Farm for $219.00..
Guess its the older slow twist model....used it with Factory loads when I first got it, 240 grain bullets..
hunted in Up North Minnesota, south of International Falls.. heavy woods and plenty of swamps...
it dropped what ever it hit...to include the biggest buck I've ever taken...about 350 lbs on the hoof according to MN DNR
when we checked him in...
After I started handloading, I've loaded it up and down the spectrum....my favorite bullet has been the Hornady 300 gr XTP.
I run it at around 1750 fps... can run it hotter, but due to lack of any aerodynamics, between 1750 fps and 2200 fps, I give up about 15 yrds of point blank range...and reduce recoil quite a bit...I use it as a woods gun, shooting at 150 yds max, so it fits the bill.
I've loaded it to 1000 fps, for kids to use, with 180 XTP bullets.. and they worked just fine in the 75 yds wood ranges, with minimal recoil... if you use 44 Rem Mag load data in the 444 case, it will give you pretty much the same velocity that the 44 Mag will give you.. so its effective..
when I got mine, my buddy who always had to do one upmanship, on everyone... bought a 45/70... that did the same thing..
I saw no reason to need a 45/70... so I've had the 444 for 40 years now...I see no reason to replace it or let it go..Its been a fine accurate rifle... and certainly got my $219 worth out of it...
"Minus the killings, Washington has one of the lowest crime rates in the Country" Marion Barry, Mayor of Wash DC
“Owning guns is not a right. If it were a right, it would be in the Constitution.” ~Alexandria Ocasio Cortez
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Joined: Feb 2004
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
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Simple, 450 Marlin...
Phil I have to agree. The 45/70 brass is very light duty, it deforms easily. The Marlin's are quite clunky and rough and I did not feel confident with full power loads( by the book) The .450 Marlin is heavier walled and webbed and I no longer worry about these things. Selling the GBL and acquiring a BLR was a good move for me. Try Starline and that issue will disappear. I've run velocity up to where I didn't want to take anymore recoil and pressure was about 35.5 Kpsi. … My Guide gun's action is not at all rough, actually quite smooth. Vic – We agree on both points. My JM Marlin 1895 is quite smooth and all I use is Starline brass. Can’t help but wonder if comerade’s 1895 was an early Remlin (Remington Marlin), which were not up to par with the JM Marlins. My 2181fps
Coyote Hunter - NRA Patriot Life, NRA Whittington Center Life, GOA, DAD - and I VOTE!
No, I'm not a Ruger bigot - just an unabashed fan of their revolvers, M77's and #1's.
A good .30-06 is a 99% solution.
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Joined: Jan 2011
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Campfire Regular
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I've had 44 mag and owned various 45-70's from the 1970's until about 10-12 years ago when I sold the last one. Never had a 444 but it is just a faster 44 mag which will mean more useful range. The 45-70 is over rated. Until you get into the nuclear loads that exceed 375 recoil it won't do anything a 44 mag won't do. And if I'm dealing with that much recoil I'll take a 375 every time. There is nothing I'd hunt with a 45-70, with any load, that I wouldn't feel better with a 30-06 in my hands with heavy for caliber bullets. Also, the 45/70 has the nostalgic history aura.🙂
And what history would that be. It was introduced in 1873 as a military cartridge designed for killing indians. Traditional loads are about equal to 45 caliber muzzle loader rifles. Which aren't legal in most places for game bigger than deer. It was never widely used as a buffalo rifle. Mostly because most of the buffalo were dead before it was invented and 1870's loads were not up to taking game that size. Laws banning buffalo hunting were introduced 1 year after the 45-70 was introduced to protect the handful left. The cartridge was all but dead within 20 years and lay dormant and rarely used for almost 100 years until Marlin brought it back to life in the 1970's. With colorful advertising hinting of a great history. I'd bet money the 45-70 has taken more game in the 21st century than it did in the 19th and 20th centuries combined. The milder traditional loads are fun to shoot, but don't offer any advantage over 44 mag. Modern loads take the 45-70 to another level compared to 1870's loads, but at the expense of recoil that is out of proportion to the performance. Wow....over 50 years of studying Western American history and over 40 years with the 45-70 and I was completely ignorant of all this. A brief perusal of railroad shipping records blows all kinds of 45 cal. holes in the buffalo comments. Maybe you oughta read "The Red River War" just for starters. I've never seen a 444 or 44 Mag. loaded with a 450-500 gr. bullet. Personally, anything lighter than 420 grs. in the 45-70 is not using the cartridge at its optimum but, that's just me. That's a significant advantage over any 44 Mag. or 444. Any of my former 45-70's or my current 45-90 would/will penetrate any deer lengthways and my 45-90 will do the same on elk with my favored 480 gr. NEI bullet...and that's when both are loaded with black powder. But, what do I know. Get a 45-70 and don't look back.
NRA Benefactor 2008
Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father but through me." John 14-6
There is no right way to do a wrong thing
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Joined: May 2002
Posts: 9,529
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 9,529 |
I liked the 444 better than than the 45-70, it didn’t kick as much. There is that...
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Joined: May 2002
Posts: 9,529
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: May 2002
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Simple, 450 Marlin...
Phil I have to agree. The 45/70 brass is very light duty, it deforms easily. The Marlin's are quite clunky and rough and I did not feel confident with full power loads( by the book) The .450 Marlin is heavier walled and webbed and I no longer worry about these things. Selling the GBL and acquiring a BLR was a good move for me. Try Starline and that issue will disappear. I've run velocity up to where I didn't want to take anymore recoil and pressure was about 35.5 Kpsi. … My Guide gun's action is not at all rough, actually quite smooth. Vic – We agree on both points. My JM Marlin 1895 is quite smooth and all I use is Starline brass. Can’t help but wonder if comerade’s 1895 was an early Remlin (Remington Marlin), which were not up to par with the JM Marlins. My 2181fps Not only is the action smooth, but it has one of the smoothest factory barrels I've ever owned. It is almost like it has been lapped.
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Joined: May 2016
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Campfire Regular
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Lots of 45/70 fans here.
I had one, ran the gamut on it and the more I used the Remlin, the more it bothered me. I also read about many failures and no company to back it up.
I found the brass could be bent with no effort, I really disliked the fat forearm and really thought the action sounded like it was made from pot metal. The earlier JM's were a little better, imo.
Why would a saddle rifle come with a fat forearm anyways? My rifles ride in a saddle scabbard , butt back , offside and under my stirrup. It was too bothersome for myself.
All said I do like the chambering but the .450 is better, stronger and the BLR is a front locking lever/ bolt...and it is a takedown.
I am saying this for other horseman our there, a saddle rifle takes a beating. Food for thought, imo
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Joined: Feb 2004
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
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I liked the 444 better than than the 45-70, it didn’t kick as much. There is that... That depends on the loads, even in the case of factory loads. The Hornady 25g .,444 load at 2300fps is going to kick less than Hornady's 250g load at 2025fps? No. And probably not less than the Hornady 325g load at 2050fps. My hardcast 300g and 350g .45-70 plinking loads use 13.5g HS-6 powder for 1167fps and 1097fps respectively. Recoil is about half that of many factory .30-30 loads, yet they will penetrate and exit 11-12 water jugs, and are very accurate if somewhat limited in effective range due to the trajectory. Inside 100 yards they are fine. And very inexpensive - I used to be able to builds a box of 20 for about $2.50. My other loads include a variety of bullets and velocities, including some in the stratosphere where the .444 can't begin to go. Factory 405g .45-70 loads at around 1300fps are surprisingly gentle on the shoulder yet devastating on game. Nothing wrong with the .444 but the great thing about the.45-70 is that it can do everything a .444 can and and considerably more. The recoil level is optional, but for similar loads the recoil of the .444 and .45-70 are very similar.
Coyote Hunter - NRA Patriot Life, NRA Whittington Center Life, GOA, DAD - and I VOTE!
No, I'm not a Ruger bigot - just an unabashed fan of their revolvers, M77's and #1's.
A good .30-06 is a 99% solution.
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 22,884
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 22,884 |
My vote would go for the 44 magnum rifle. At least it's fun to shoot!
The others are simply there for lever fans who also enjoy extra recoil, not because they are more effective than some other cartridges in a bolt action.
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Joined: Dec 2019
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Campfire Tracker
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OP
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Dec 2019
Posts: 4,680 |
I'm not a reloader. Yet. Working on that as well.
As for 45-70 nostalgia, there were still millions of Bison in the early to mid 1870s, and no doubt the 45-70 did its share of damage. The 50 caliber, breechloading Sharps and Springfields (50-79, 50-90, etc), as well as surplus rifle-muskets from the war (.58), just had a little head start on them. But Moose is corrext. There weren't any bison conservation laws in the 1870s (though Grant was generally more empathetic to Indian affairs than he gets credit... as opposed to Sheridan and company). The bison range shrinks and moves northwest over the course of the 1870s and early 1880s, from tens of millions to less than a million, but more recent studies (1980s forward)suggest the starting population was smaller than previously estimated and that Indians did more thinning than previously realized.
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Joined: May 2002
Posts: 9,529
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
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Lots of 45/70 fans here.
I had one, ran the gamut on it and the more I used the Remlin, the more it bothered me. I also read about many failures and no company to back it up.
I found the brass could be bent with no effort, I really disliked the fat forearm and really thought the action sounded like it was made from pot metal. The earlier JM's were a little better, imo.
Why would a saddle rifle come with a fat forearm anyways? My rifles ride in a saddle scabbard , butt back , offside and under my stirrup. It was too bothersome for myself.
All said I do like the chambering but the .450 is better, stronger and the BLR is a front locking lever/ bolt...and it is a takedown.
I am saying this for other horseman our there, a saddle rifle takes a beating. Food for thought, imo
The early "Remlin" era is a disaster, and aptly demonstrates how a company can get themselves into trouble if the workforce is not skilled. The fat forearm is something I never liked, either. My rifle has a set of Brockman's Rifles laminate stocks on it. The comb is raised, the forearm is much more slender and it has a ver effective recoil pad, making it much more shootable in regards to recoil. Other things I have changed have been the trigger and mag follower, though I don't use the gummy tips, it allows that option should I decide. A larger lever has been installed, not one of the huge ones, bur an RPP medium which allows a gloved hand to easily fit in the lever. The rear semi-buckhorn came of first thing, I much prefer a peep (Williams FP), and I swap between that and a rail with either a Leupold VX-3i 1.5-5X20 or a Viper Venom reflex sight. The VX3i gets the most use. I don't carry it horseback and I'm sure that's a whole new set of demands on a rifle. The BLR is a very nice looking, modern rifle, and two chamberings I would consider are the .358 Win and .450 Marlin. I have absolutely no experience with one but do admire the aesthetics.
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Joined: May 2002
Posts: 9,529
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
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With the Viper Venom: ![[Linked Image from live.staticflickr.com]](https://live.staticflickr.com/1929/44491976884_4cba01f6c8_z.jpg) Most common configuration, VX-3i ![[Linked Image from live.staticflickr.com]](https://live.staticflickr.com/1890/44128591374_eb97ed3402_z.jpg)
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Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 401
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Which would I pick and why?
I’m lucky enough to have and enjoy all three choices, and I love em all. But, most of my shots are at woods ranges, and I honestly can’t tell a difference in how they kill deer. I’ve found myself carrying the .44 mags more than the other two.
45/70... gotta love the history and horsepower.
.444......cool factor and less recoil.
.44 mag.....even less recoil, ammo is everywhere, and it puts about the same size hole in deer. My ‘94 Trapper is nice to carry, and accurate enough for my purposes. I pick it up often.
Last edited by paint; 02/26/20.
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Campfire Regular
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Folks that load, use and know the 45-70 and 444 Marlin know that either is tremendously capable out at 200 yards with a low power scope. Using hard cast, gas checks in a 450 gr .458 at 1,800 fps or a 355 gr. .430 hard cast gas check at 2,000 fps means game over. Loaded with .458, 400 gr or .430, 300 gr Barnes Busters would also administer some serious hurt on the receiving end.
Last edited by Rossimp; 02/26/20.
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Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 3,032
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
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.44 mag for me. id shoot anything with it.
Uber Demanding Rifle Aficionado
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Campfire Tracker
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The .44 carbine would make nice HD gun or general purpose defense gun for someone residing in "Blue State".
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Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 12,651
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
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The .44 carbine would make nice HD gun or general purpose defense gun for someone residing in "Blue State". We used my .44 Mag carbine (Browning B92) for camp defense for many years while the girls were young and I didn't have a suitable revolver or semi-auto. Four-legged critters were a concern but so were the two-legged kind. The carbine has a 20" barrel and is light and handy. The steel buttplate makes it not so much fun when shooting in a tee shirt. 
Coyote Hunter - NRA Patriot Life, NRA Whittington Center Life, GOA, DAD - and I VOTE!
No, I'm not a Ruger bigot - just an unabashed fan of their revolvers, M77's and #1's.
A good .30-06 is a 99% solution.
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Joined: May 2016
Posts: 1,415
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: May 2016
Posts: 1,415 |
Lots of 45/70 fans here.
I had one, ran the gamut on it and the more I used the Remlin, the more it bothered me. I also read about many failures and no company to back it up.
I found the brass could be bent with no effort, I really disliked the fat forearm and really thought the action sounded like it was made from pot metal. The earlier JM's were a little better, imo.
Why would a saddle rifle come with a fat forearm anyways? My rifles ride in a saddle scabbard , butt back , offside and under my stirrup. It was too bothersome for myself.
All said I do like the chambering but the .450 is better, stronger and the BLR is a front locking lever/ bolt...and it is a takedown.
I am saying this for other horseman our there, a saddle rifle takes a beating. Food for thought, imo
The early "Remlin" era is a disaster, and aptly demonstrates how a company can get themselves into trouble if the workforce is not skilled. The fat forearm is something I never liked, either. My rifle has a set of Brockman's Rifles laminate stocks on it. The comb is raised, the forearm is much more slender and it has a ver effective recoil pad, making it much more shootable in regards to recoil. Other things I have changed have been the trigger and mag follower, though I don't use the gummy tips, it allows that option should I decide. A larger lever has been installed, not one of the huge ones, bur an RPP medium which allows a gloved hand to easily fit in the lever. The rear semi-buckhorn came of first thing, I much prefer a peep (Williams FP), and I swap between that and a rail with either a Leupold VX-3i 1.5-5X20 or a Viper Venom reflex sight. The VX3i gets the most use. I don't carry it horseback and I'm sure that's a whole new set of demands on a rifle. The BLR is a very nice looking, modern rifle, and two chamberings I would consider are the .358 Win and .450 Marlin. I have absolutely no experience with one but do admire the aesthetics. Good post, useful. I am quite happy the ancient 45/70 was resurrected and is almost mainstream these days and happen to be a levergun guy. I buy and try as I go but always looking for the ultimate saddle rifle... and of course this is impossible. I like the learning curve. Cheers
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Campfire Regular
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Since you are not a reloader, the .44 Mag will be most versatile. 44 special loads can be used for plinking. The Marlin tends to be a little picky about feeding, mine hated SWC style bullets but shot LFN. RN, and JSP or JHP's just fine. The Marlin's COAL is important too, it is on the short side.
I have all the rifles you mention except the .444. Kinda shied away from it due to the previously standard 38" twist which limited your selection of bullets generally to 265 grains and less. My Marlin 45-70 is a great rifle, very versatile and capable of loads that easily generate more power than the others. But more often than not, that extra is not needed. I use dto shoot my 95 CB in Cast Bullet Silhouette matches using 405 gr cast bullets. Shot and reloaded a ton of rounds and never lost a case. Not sure where the notion of brass deforming easily comes from. The only lever gun cases that fit that bill are the .44-40 and .38-40 but with care and a Lee Factory Crimp die, those concerns are all but eliminated.
I have several lever guns in.45 Colt as well, and love them too.
For a pure hunting rifle, especially on larger game, the .45-70 is probably the best bet. But for endless rounds of plinking fun and game including hogs, deer, and black bear, either the .44 Mag or .45 Colt will fit the bill nicely.
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