Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Savage Collectors engraved Savage book

Looks like I am going to have to write it. I'm going to need a lot of help from the members here. It will include not only engraved rifles but special feature rifles that are not engraved and probably an appendix on Savage advertising. I may even include a chapter on aftermarket customs.
I just sent a proposal to Schiffer Publishing. They published the "Collector's Guide" and on the advice of two attorneys I am stuck with the contract I signed to offer them "first right of refusal" of any books on a "similar subject". It may take them up to 12 weeks to respond.
Any and all input from forum members will be appreciated.

I hope the publisher treats you fairly.. better than last time for sure.

How about some examples (or suspected examples) of "lunchbox specials" as a part of the chapter on customs?

tell the publishing company to hell with the idea, nobody will buy it, (wink, wink)

...then Rory could publish it!

.... or, Gene

...or, Grogel D

...or, Fug could start a Savage publishing business!

That's good news David. Thank you. You can count on me.
Let's focus on recording and documenting what you have mentioned and possibly other previously "unrecorded" historic Savage Arms lore.
I would like to cover the Savage Engraver Biographies.

If you can rough out the content, chapters, etc. at a high level, we can help to fill in the blanks with information, pics, etc.

- standard factory engraving w/examples
- custom factory engraving w/examples (Dodge, Shah, others,..)
- standard factory checking w/examples
- engraved .22's?
- Savage Collector Forum Collections w/examples from Maine, New Hampshire, Ohio, Kansas, more.

David you are welcome to go through my collection any time. After you go to Fug's and brother loggah's you probably have most of the info you need for your new book. But welcome anytime

David,

I have a rifle that will help you out for this effort. It’s very unique.

Good luck on your efforts.

Great responses. I should have the hot rod on the road tomorrow and then I will rough out what I think should go in the book. The book will be heavily into the factory engraved and special order guns but I'm also looking for off the wall factory things like the lunch box specials. I have also seen photos of some really beautiful after market engraved and stocked 99's that I will likely include. I definitely want all the biographical data on the engravers. A German friend of mine is going to look for data on Gustave Kirchner, the guy we know engraved some of the PE's.

Great news, can’t wait.

More reasons to come to Savage Fest and get pictures! Glad you are forging ahead.

If I could come to Savage Fest I would have to fly there. The problem with that is I have two large plastic boxes of lighting equipment. Not at all airline compatible. I haven't ruled out coming completely. That's an awfully long road trip considering we have to hire someone to house, horse and cat sit, I have to have my CPAP machine and oxygen concentrator and how I stiffen up on long trips.

David, ship the large photo equipment. Carry on the rest. ?? Also make sure there is something to photograph when you get there.

Regarding the Engraving Book, I have;
1) Raw data and can tell good stories for these engravers.
Ulrich, Tue, Gough, Rentzschke, Kirchner.
You can review and wordsmith all you want.

2) Raw data and can tell a story for W.I. King.
King was known to carve Savage stocks.
Tue's nephew William Harry was a checker among other things.
Still looking in this area.

3) I have a contact with FEGA (Firearms Engraving Guild of America) who tentatively would write an "Intro" for you that could cover the origins of engraving, engraving in Europe, engraving in America, engraving families which leads us to Savage Arms engraving. All is open.

Meanwhile I continue on the "the hunt"....

David, just for giggles you might throw in a page on the checkerer's (sp) and the difference in the high grades and the run of the mill. only mention this because I cut diamonds for 50 years, and some of the stuff I have seen on 99's makes me shudder.

Both are very good input. I hadn't thought about checkerers till now. Whoever did the checkering on my "F" engraved 1899B was a real master. It's pictured on the cover of my book but not all of the checkering shows. It will show real well in the next book.

The customs get me exited there are many pure collectors turn from but are works of art.

The Pig Rifle deserves a spot.

Great news David

Hope everything works out for you. I can give you any information you'd like on the engraved rifles I have. I have four model K's, (two 300 Savages, a 30-30, and a 250 Savage), an 1899 model "B" , A B grade 303 Savage in mint condition and a Speigle in 303. Not sure if I ever gave you any data on them or not.

Cheers and good luck

Joe

I am planning the following chapters:
1. Model 1895 engraving, checkering and rifles with special features
2. Model 1999 engraving, checkering, carved stocks and rifles with special features to include the Perris Special (I'll need photos of a Perris special, I've never seen one and hopefully someone here has one or can get photos of one).
3. Model 99K's, combination set with a 99K, Spiegle Specials, Rentzschke engraved 99F's and any special feature 99's made between about 1921 and 1959.
The Shah of Iran rifle where ever it fits in. I'm not sure when it was produced.
4. Post mil specials such as the NRA one million special, 99DE's, 99PE's, 75th and 100th anniversary, RMEF and the highly embellished PE type rifles that were produced probably in the late 1960's. One or two of these were made up for outgoing Savage CEO's.
5. Aftermarket engraved 99's, rifles with other special aftermarket features like fancy stocks.
Appendix A. Some Savage advertising.
I plan to use a piece of Savage advertising showing an engraved rifle for that era at the beginning of each chapter.
I don't know much about other Savage models but might consider a chapter of some of the other engraved models such as the 1903 22.
I am hoping this will be a large format coffee table type book primarily because the larger the photos in the book the better the reader will be able to see the detail of the engraving. But it may be too expensive.
I am wide open for suggestions of what to include in the book as long as it is close to the subject of engraved and special order Savage firearms.
Here are some photos to give you guys and idea of what I need for the book.
99K, closeup of the engraving. I'll need photos of both sides.

top and bottom of the receiver on the higher grades such as this 1899 with "F" engraving and the top of the engraving of 99K's.

angled view to show engraving that is near the bolt such as these photos of the "F" engraved 1899 and 99K


Rentzschke engraved 99F. I haven't posted photos of this rifle on here yet so I will use it to show more examples of photos needed for the book.
right side of receiver

left side of receiver

right side of stock. I will need photos of both sides of the stock and forearm if the rifle has high grade wood.

99F forearm. This does not have enough figure to be in the book but I've enclosed the photo as part of the photos of the engraved 99F

99F lever.

I didn't take a closeup of the checkering on the 1899 with "F" engraving. It is really intricate and I will need closeups of the higher grade checkered and carved stocks. That is separate photos of the grip and forearm. I'll add photos of this later.
David

boswellbuckhunter. I didn't see your post until now. I started the last post last night and finished it this morning due to the intricate steps required here to post pics from an Apple computer. Send me a few preliminary pics and I will tell you which ones I need detailed photos. Thanks, David

Boswellbuckhunter's post reminded me of something. I don't need book quality photos at first. A few photos showing the special features are enough to show me whether or not I want to use photos of the rifle in the book. If I want to use that particular rifle then I will ask for book quality photos. Some of the photos I posted above are not book quality. They are not light enough to show the detail of the wood (#7) or they have reflections that distract from the subject matter (#5). Photos 1 and 6 are acceptable.
I am going to need someone to photo shop the photos. A local lady will do it but will probably be too expensive. If someone here could do for free or reasonable it would be best. Whoever does it will get credit for the photo shoping in the acknowledgements.

David, I'll work with you offline, but I have information and/or pics for the below and some others;
1) 1895's - Stratton rifles. Obviously these are Marlin manuf. and Ulrich engraved.
2) 1899's - Arthur Edward Perris, Philip Jordan Noel, Nathanial Cushing Nash, John Francis Dodge, Horace Elgin Dodge, Shah/Gough. Tue/Gough engraved.
3) 99's - Joseph Falcon/Pres./1967, William O'Connor/V.P./1969
4) -
5) -
6) - .22's - could show grade A,B,C engraving as examples. P.J. Noel had a special engraved .22
7) - pistols - could show grade A,B,C engraving as examples. Reference Brower's book for more.

The ball is rolling and the gears are turning...

Thanks Rick. Be in touch offline shortly.

David,

I assume you have thought of this already. I have no idea of what kind of rigamarole or hoops you would have to jump through, but if you could get access to and permission to use photos from the 2012 and 2013 Julia auctions, there is a wealth of info there. Likewise for Rock Island Auction (Dodge guns?) and probably others.

Julia supplied me with some photos for the last book. All they asked was that I give them credit for the photos. I'll check with Rock Island Auction and Amoskeag. Thanks for the reminder.

Julia is now owned by Morphy's Auctions based in Denver, Pa. I believe they have an auction house in Las Vegas as well. I've been to their showroom in Pa several times as their guns are on display for anybody to pick up, inspect and handle for several weeks before the auctions. White gloves only.

https://www.morphyauctions.com/

So, David, will you call up Tue and get him to engrave a plate to emboss the frontispiece of this book?

99 Guy, thanks for the link to Morphy's. I would definitely like pics of the engraved cased set.
Gary, I can't raise them from the dead. I think Jesus was the last guy to do that. Now if he came back... GOTCHA!!

Well, while every one else is being helpful, can I be greedy and put in a request for the same numbers of the first book. I think I had #22 and #23. I'll check to be certain.

David, If you have a use for vintage photos down the line, contact me and I can ship them out to you.

Joe, I planned to offer people the same number with the new book as used in the old book. No need for reservations for anyone who has a numbered copy of "A Coolector's Guide..."
Gary, not that far yet but am hoping for Savage advertisements. Some of your pics may well be needed.

Agree!

Stratton #4022

Stratton #4421

I am already trying to talk to Morphy who bought Julia. At least I left the appropriate person a voice mail.
I am not finding some of my contact info. Does any one here know of a guy in New York who has 2 or 3 engraved 1895's? I need to get in touch with him to include his rifles.

My good friend gave up his gunshop business and moved to PA to work with Morphy. He was swinging through Oregon picking up a collection for a summer auction and we had lunch today. Let me know if you need an inside man.

Roy:

Does he work with Dave Bushing?

Edit: Just looking at website, looks live Dave no longer with Morphy.

In that case, no.

BTW, that 99E in 303 that I took back to the Pa get together just made it home today with my buddy. That took a little longer than expected!

Roy, I can use all the help I can get. An inside man at Morphys would be great.

David, I can get you the name and phone number of the person to talk to at Morphy's.

Hit me up middle of next week.

Sent you a PM David.

Thanks guys, got the PM Roy.

My guy at Morphy's gone. Looks like he just recently went to an auction house in Ohio.

I was in there one time of many times, maybe 6 or 7 years ago to talked to him about an interesting WW ll 1911 I had that I wanted him to sell for me and we somehow got talking about baseball and he pulled a 1947 Yankee World Series uniform out of a paper bag next to his desk. Number 5, Joe D. When I held that up to look at it the hair stood up on my arms.

Dave was not only a firearms expert but a renowned authenticator of baseball memorabilia as well.

Maybe Roy's friend got Dave's job?

Anyways, funny how small our world is sometimes...

There are a lot of good guns showing up. Anyone know where I can get photos of the Shah's 99 and the elaborate rifle with gold animals that was presented to an outgoing Savage CEO? It had his name engraved on the bottom of the receiver. I'm also looking for any other one off 99's.

I think you need to travel to Maine for a "picture" of the Prince/Shah of Iran rifle.
Gough engraved 1939.
JTC has said the rifle resides in the U.S. but don't know where.




Joseph Falcon/President


William O'Connor/Vice President

Since the topic is "Savage Engraving" wouldn't be appropriate to include the 3 basic grades of engraving for Savage pistols? Tue did the majority of these and Gough did a few as well.

Brower's book covers engraving grades, finishes, grips and special grade pistols so no need to be overly redundant. Just the 3 basic.

From Brower's web site Savage Pistols

There are 3 basic models of Savage Pistols made in 2 calibers.
FANCY PISTOLS: 3 styles or grades of engraving or embellishment were available:
(a) “Protector” or “A” style: the least extensive & the least expensive coverage.
(b) “Monitor” or “B” style: more extensive coverage with greater detail; mid-
range cost.
(c) “Special” or “C” style: the most extensive coverage with greatest detail. This
was the most costly option.

In a similar vein, Savage .22's (1903's) could be engraved as well during Tue's time.
I think ?? 3 grades, but not sure. Other models besides 1903??
Need some help GeneB.

I may do a little bit on some of the other engraved Savages, the pistols and 1903's are very likely candidates.
This is still in the early stages of figuring out what to do. Some of this will be dependent on what the editor says. He emailed me he would contact me this week. Haven't heard from him yet.

Welp, answered my own question.
It appears at one time Savage offered engraving grades A-G & name scroll for 1903's, similar to the 1899's. And 4 flavors of checking.
At some point Savage offered 1903 grade EF & grade Expert, similar to Leader, Victor, etc.
Good Lord thatsalot of examples.

Already PM's Gene. I'm sure something will be done with them.

All this talk about books has got me all jacked up. Got a nice custom 250-3000 if you want photos of something like that.

Roy,

Perfect checkering! Sweet.

Great pictures, Great rifle. I know I would like to see more.

I can probably work it in in the custom 99 section. You've got some good photos there.

You'd have to buy the book! LOL.

that is hands down the nicest checkering I have ever seen on a 99!
not one over run and just a few uneven diamonds! God that makes me want to get out my cutters and a piece of walnut!

Deerstalker I've been thinking this for awhile ; David should include your checkering instructions at some place in his book even if it was in the appendix. " A chapter on checkering " for the kids of us who would like to give it a try. Might increase sales too !

The closer I look at this rifle the nicer it gets. I can't imagine doing that level of woodworking.

Basic checkering and engraving instructions could go in the section covering aftermarket custom rifles. I'm sort of on hold now waiting to hear from the editor. He is supposed to call this week. The week is almost over. I'll start photographing my own guns today or tomorrow. Keep sending suggestions guys.

You could probably divote another book just to custom 99's

I almost hate sharing on the internet these days for fear of catching the virus. I know it must have mutated by now so it can travel up the cables and across the airwaves ta git me.

Might be interesting to get input from several professional engravers as to the time required to do different grades of Tue's engraving.

It has occurred to me that there may be too much info for one book. The emphasis is going to be on factory engraved and special feature 1895, 1899 and 99 rifles. Info on the engravers will also be included. The other engraved/special feature Savages may only be used in a limited manner. And the aftermarket guns may or not be included. I'm not trying to discourage any one from submitting info. The more I have the better I can make decisions on what to use. Maybe there will have to be a third book. If there is a third book it will be a lot easier to write if I have all the information already on hand.

Not to rain on anyone's parade, but there are tons of books, videos and classes available for "how to engrave" and "how to checker".
Adding "how to" of either to this book would add a lot of pages and still not do justice for either craft.
If interested, get the specialized instruction material. JMO.

Glad you pointed that out. No need to clutter the book up with that.

No one wants to look at my pile of junky 99s so I can't help with pictures. However, thank you so much for starting on this endeavor, I'm excited to be able to buy a copy!

If you kids want to try checkering do it. If I can do it and have people that aren't blind accept it anybody can do it.
If you really want to try it ,i have at least 6 and maybe 8 sets of 18 lpi cutters and I would count it a blessing to share.
Start with 16 lpi or 18 ,get the process down then try the tighter patterns.
Last cutting I did for pay was on a win pre 64 , restock for Bob Peterson of Peterson publishing. That was 22 lpi. What a pain with fluer d lis pattern.

Don't know what instructions I could give that you can't get out of Monte Kennedy's book. Mostly I just criticize anymore!😇😇

Roy who did that work? Doo you know? If you compare it to even the pics of the Shah/Prince's it stands out. A master's hand!

I don't know but the rifle was not a bargain basement purchase.

Thanx DS . I'll try it someday with some of my cutting tools according to your suggestions. All shows are cancelled in B.C.

Thanks ctw, I am impressed

Did ya know?.........

Enoch Tue, Savage engraver (1866-1927) (pronounced Tew) spent his formative years in the Milton Keynes region of England which includes Wolverton.





1881 Census puts father William, son William, 16 and son Enoch, 14 all working at the Wolverton Rail Works. Wolverton Works
father William was a "raily coach trimmer", born in Newcastle
son William was a "raily coach painter", born in Openshaw
son Enoch was a "raily (I can't read this word), born in Openshaw
son James was "scholar" (in school), born in New Bradwell

Looking at the map
Strangely enough I have an FT Baker patent ejector NP SXS shotgun (back action) circa 1895. (cased with all the bits). Works nicely!

I can only drool on the keyboard with the photographs shown above. I will take a low number book if I can still swing it when it comes out. What hoops do I go through today for a copy of the first book? Thanks and Be Well, Rustyzipper.

If you mean a copy of the current book send me a check for $60 to: David Royal, p.o. box 1271, Pinedale, Wy., 82941. Tell me how you want it inscribed.
It's too early to make any promises about the engraving book.

Things aren't moving much due to the CRISIS! Publisher can't answer my questions because they are reconfiguring to work remotely. Travel plans are on hold. However I have gotten some good information and photos from people here on the forum. Keep them coming guys. I may have to write this thing without leaving home huddled in my darkened cave.

This is where Enoch Tue was schooled in hand engraving in the early 1880's.
Wolverton is near New Bradwell where the Tue's lived.
About midway between London and Birmingham.

It was known as The Church Institute in this 1864 sketch.
Can see the large building in the background.

Shifting gears to William H. Gough...
A prolific master engraver who worked in Meriden, Conn./Parker Bros., Philadelphia/A.H. Fox & Utica/Savage Arms for the most part all the while having private shops in Philadelphia and Utica where he engraved for many other gun manufacturers.
Analysis of the Gough family tree & timeline show that engraving was a family affair as many of the early engravers.
Gough's father, two brothers and a son all engraved at the afore mentioned companies/cities and sometimes together.
In addition to 99K's for Savage Gough was commissioned for numbers of other specially engraved guns for the Prince of Iran, King Farouk/Egypt, President Huerto/Mexico, Ty Cobb and others.
It would appear that William, brother Harold and son Alfred all may have had a hand on 99K's as Savage employees & thus some variations in technique.
(a works in progress..)

Great job. Very interesting.

Great! Anyone know where Prince of Iran, King Farouk, President Huerto and Ty Cobb 99's are now?

~1916 William Gough was an accomplished trap shooter in Philadelphia as was his 16 yr. old daughter Leaphy.

In addition to engraving in his Utica shop he handled jewelry and watch repairs as well. Sounds typical for that kind of shop.

The Prince of Iran's was a 99K
King Farouk was a 99, not sure of model yet.
Heurto's was a Colt Model 1902 (have a few pics)
Ty Cobb? Still working on it....

Ty Cobb was presented with a A.H. Fox shotgun. Grade unknown.
This would have been from Gough's work at Fox in Philadelphia.
A review of Cobb's stats shows he was the greatest baseball player of all time.
No wonder he was presented the shotgun at home plate!

The President of Mexico Huerto's Colt came out of Gough's Philadelphia shop as well.

This is a story about William H. Gough just before he retired.
I transcribed a newspaper article as it was a poor copy and still missing a few words.
It's a little lengthy but quite revealing of the man, his life and his work.

Crests of Eastern Kings Etched in Steel by Utican
By Alberta J. Dickinson - Utica Observer Dispatch August 29, 1954

When King Farouk of Egypt had a special kind of gun turned out for him by Savage Arms Corp. (that was quite a spell before his subjects concluded they had had enough him), the job of engraving the gun fittingly with Egypt's royal crest was delegated to a comparatively obscure Utican, William H. Gough master of his art.
And when Franklin Delano Roosevelt then President wanted to present the Shah of Persia with a rifle (this also was made at the Savage Arms plant), it was Bill Gough who had the job of combining the Persian royal coat of arms with that of the U.S. In an elegant steel and gold engraving for the Shah's gun.
These are just two of the scores of famous folk for whom during his 60 years as one of the country's specialists in gun engraving. Gough has furnished top work, by way of assignments from various gun manufacturing establishment. He has been employed by everyone of the large arms concerns in the country and right now is engaged on a Remington Arms assignment which has taken up much of his summer.
So far as he knows Gough is the only special gun engraver in Central New York. Eighty next March, an inspiring person young at heart and with a captivating sense of humor, he looks a particularly youthful 68 or 70, and is as lively and active as most men half his age. His work requires the closest attention to details but he wars glasses only for driving his car.
An Englishman by birth, his father 90 years ago was a gun engraver, one of the best, in a Birmingham arms plant. “Naturally,” the Utican say, “being a British boy, I followed in my father's footsteps when it came to decide on a profession. His work was typical of English engravers, as delicate and beautiful as the watercolor paintings in which English artists excelled in his day. English hand engraving then and today for that matter contrasted with that of the German and Belgian engravers, outstanding in their field. Their carving is deeper, heavier.
Gough was living in Meriden, Conn. ____ ____ ____ ___ youth, when he began his life's occupation. He studied engraving ornamentation with Frank Sporrns, then head designer for the International Silver Co. in Meridan. In that city as a young fellow, Gough worked for the Parker gun manufacturing plant, for the Colt revolver concern in Hartford, Conn., went on to Philadelphia where he was employed as an engraver for the Fox Gun Co.
In the latter city he established a shop in conjunction with his work for the Fox plant, and took commissions in special engraving jobs from many parts of the country. There he worked on engravings for Aubrey guns then manufactured by Sears Roebuck Co. for guns turned out by the Norwich Arms Corp and Hollenbeck guns, manufactured in Virginia.
Gough was in his late 40's when he came to Utica to work for Savage Arms Corp. as a special engraver. He was with that plant for 20 years, the last two as a tool maker. Along with his responsibilities at the plant he opened a shop of his own shortly after coming to Utica, more recently, for 13 years located in the Gardner block and now for the past two years in the McLoughlin Building,Genesse 81.
This mid-town headquarters for his specialty is a study in disorder, with tables, chairs and stools littered with the work at hand and the instruments for doing it.
He does a good bit of jewelry and watch repairing too and that sort of thing is just an accommodation. Gun engraving is his first love.
He'll tell you, if you stop to visit with him of the job he did on a Colts revolver for Gen. Huerto President of Mexico and of the time he engraved a gun for Ty Cobb, presented him by Philadelphia fans, The great baseball hitter introduced by the almost equally famous “Stony McGlynn,then head of the Philadelphia Ledger's sports department used to come to the engraver's shop regularly to visit with him.
The proprietor of the famous Texas 101 Ranch and many of the cowboy's in the 101 Ranch show which toured the country annually for years all carried pistols engraved by the Ytican.
Men ___________________ their guns are very particular about the designs, Gough explains. They call for birds heads of hunting dogs, bear, moose and deer, combined with the dates of hunting achievements family crests and other ornamentation. Gough makes the free hand drawings on the steel plates with a pen or brush, carries out the final work with a gold inlay.
At his Walker Rd. home the engraver “lets of steam” he says in producing one of the finest vegetable gardens in that locality where he raises everything from potatoes to Hubbard squash.
Gough has four children. They are Irving, Hollywood, Fla, realtor, Charles, Philadelphia an ice cream manufacturer, Alfred, Brewster, Mass, proprietor of a typewriter concern and Phyllis who lives at home and attends Whiterboro Central School. The Goughs including Phyllis are active members of the Church of the Resurrection.

This is an example of William H. Gough (Goff) circa 1910 while at Parker Bros. in Meriden, Conn.
This one happens to be marked by the engraver. Lower right last pic.

Excellant info. Tks for posting.

lotsa good info coming together. Too bad the publisher is ignoring me. Hard to get started with anything concrete till I get some answers from them.

There is a mint Monarch and 2 Rivals in the Fraser Museum in Louisville,Ky.They came out of a Bowling Green,Ky estate that I bought some shotguns out of.The Monarch is the best I have ever seen.Maybe they will let you add them to your book.

P.J. Noels. I’m on it!

Thanks gunrunner, I see if I can get photos from them. I sent them an email.
Rick, what is the source of the photos you posted?
David

I emailed your wyomingsavage acct.

Got them, thanks Rick

The publisher is finally going to talk to me next week. I did get an answer on the book's format. They said it can be larger than my last book and that it can be in landscape format (wider than it is tall) which will allow the photos of the engraving to be larger than life size. I hope to find out if a larger format will make the book a lot more expensive. If it is I'll probably stick the same size as the other book but in landscape format.
I've doing some of the writing but can't get far until I get my laptop back with the photos stored there.

Steel Canvas/R.L. Wilson and Engravers of the 21st Century/Roger Bleile are both landscape.
Wonder if they went through the same thought process.

I can provide Roger's contact info if interested in talking.

I have Wilson's book. It shows the guns much better in landscape format. PM me Bleile's info. Thanks, David