Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Ask The Gunwriters Mule Deer post on bedding

There was a recent post by Mule Deer explaining why an action that the recoil lug screws into should be bedded with a barrel pad in front of the action. I thought I knew where it was but cannot locate it again, I would likle to re-read it before doing a bed job.

Can anyone direct me to it??

drover

Google search it. I believe I remember reading him post that as well and I will agree. I've had good luck doing it that way with ruger m77's and my old m1917's. It seems to help in regards to getting more consistent accuracy from those action types. Just make sure you neutral bed it stress free. The pad under the chamber area helps to keep everything free from stress when you torque your action screws down. As long as you properly glass bed you action. With my model 70's, and Savages, I just bed the recoil lug and tang and float the whole barrel.... Good luck with your search...

Hi drover,

Here it is again:

One of the small differences in the Vanguard (Howa) actions that I've noted before can occasionally cause problems if people aren't aware of it.

The Howa/Vanguard action is one of the relatively few designed since World War II that have the front action screw going directly into the recoil lug, instead of behind it. The screw going into the lug was common on pre-WWII actions, especially the influential 98 Mauser, which is probably why so many earlier bolt-actions featured it, including the 1903 Springfield, Arisaka, etc. But the front screw in the lug can result in a bedding problem, which also resulted in one common misconception about bedding bolt rifles, back when epoxy bedding became common.

If the front action screw is REALLY tightened on such actions, it can actually bend the front of the action downward slightly, since the stock support is behind the recoil lug. Since the locking lugs on 2-lug bolt orient vertically when the bolt's closed, this can result in slightly uneven lug contact--and accuracy problems. This is probably why Weatherby advises 35 inch-pounds to tighten the action screws, which isn't all that much considering that 50-80 are often suggested for the front screw on actions with the screw behind the lug.

This is the real reason many people started epoxy-bedding not only the action itself but the rear of the barrel, back when zillions of "war surplus" 98s and 1903s were sold after the war. Bedding the rear of the barrel allowed the front action screw to be tightened hard WITHOUT bending the action--a particular problem with 98s, due to the thumb-slot in the left sidewall.

A lot of people, even today, think that bedding the rear of the barrel helps "support" it, the reason they do it even on actions with the front screw behind the recoil lug--when these do NOT bend the action when tightened hard. The Model 70 was probably the first major commercial action with the screw behind the lug, but Remington used the same placement about a decade later when they introduced the 721/722 bolt-actions, which eventually morphed into the 700.

The front action-screw placement is probably a large part of the reason both the 70 and 700 both acquired such good reputations for accuracy: The barrel on does NOT need any extra bedding support on either action, the reason they both usually shoot very well even with long, heavy free-floated barrels.

Instead, bedding the rear of the barrel on actions like the 98, 1903 and Howa Vanguard supports the ACTION, to keep it from bending slightly when the screws are tightened hard.

John, excellent post with a very clear explanation. Thanks.

Thanks--and you're welcome!

I've bedded two SA 1500 rifles in laminated stocks. I installed 1/2" OD pillars under both the front and rear guard screws. On the front I tape of the bottom of the recoil lug for full contact with the pillar. Both shot very well and the rifle in 6 CM is the most accurate factory rifle I've owned.
Neither was bedded forward of the receiver and the barrels are floated about 20 thou. full length

That definitely works with stiffer stocks. The problems I've encountered are with the more flexible injection-molded stocks on Vanguards--which is where bedding the rear of the barrel tends to help.

One of the most accurate factory big game rifles I've ever owned was a Weatherby Vanguard Sporter with a walnut stock--which had semi-fancy wood which was very hard, especially for Claro. All I did to it was epoxy-bed the front of the action, and with 100-grain Barnes TSXs it would regularly put three into around 1.5 inches--at 300 yards.

Thanks very much, as mentioned above that is an excellent explanation of how and why to do it.

I appreciate it.

drover

So Ruger 77 MKII and Hawkeye--bed a barrel pad or complete free float?

In my experience, free-float.

I've gotten pretty good results on my M77s with the barrel shank neutral bedded. Might be just a difference in individual rifles.

Well, yeah--because in this instance a "neutral bedded" barrel shank doesn't make any difference.

Or at least that's my experience. If you've tested it and found neutral bedding the barrel shank on a 77 makes a difference vs. free-floating, would be very interested in hearing your results.

two of the three rifles shot better after adding the pad under the shank than when just bedding the action and bottom of the lug. My thinking was the angled screw might be sucking the front of the action under when the screw was tightened fairly tight, not farmer tight even though I spent much of my time on the farm. I don't know that to be the case, but both shot better with the shank bedded so I stayed with it.

Thanks for the info. How much better did they shoot with the shank bedded? And how much shooting did you do to determine that?

I've had a pre-'64 M70 Fwt. .30-06 for some time. Rifle is all original, no bedding modifications, etc. I can get 3-shot, 100 yards groups of an inch, sometimes a little less, as long as the barrel isn't hot. Recently, using the most accurate load I've found for this rifle, I fired a couple of groups that were around 5". I immediately figured the scope had gone bad and switched it. Group size with the different scope was identical. I cut a 1/4" strip about 1 1/2" long from a laminated card and forced it with some difficulty between the end of the forearm and the underside of the barrel - a very tight fit. The rifle immediately shot better than it ever has in the past, but I don't know how permanent my fix is.

I’ve never heard the term “neutral” bedding. I always thought an action was either bedded, or not bedded, no other option was possible. Same for the barrel. What does “neutral” bedding mean?

No pressure on the action or barrel, just contact.

Oaky. In contrast to a pressure pad near the fore-end, which is intended to apply pressure, and thus, is not "neutral". Thx.

Another issue that probably doesn't get mentioned enough is pressure from the box mag. I always want to be able to slightly move the sheet metal box after I'm done bedding to assure no binding. Like most anything, it's attention to detail that makes or breaks a project. This applies to guns with the sheet metal box mags.

DF

The thing is, with the Howa or the Sako action, the front screw not only goes into the lug but there is no portion of the receiver ahead of the lug. On any receiver which has at least some bedding surface ahead of the lug, one can float the barrel all the way back and clear the bottom of the lug with some success. Actions like this would be the Ruger 77, the Mauser 98, the p14 Enfield. Those which do not have any bedding surface ahead of the lug must either be bedded on the bottom of the lug or at the rear of the barrel.
My preference has always been to float the barrel entirely whenever possible but I will bed the barrel shank when there is no other option.
Howa, Sako, Winchester 54, are all receivers which can be bedded on the bottom of the lug and work out ok but generally work a little better with the barrel shank bedded for an inch or so and the lug cleared on the bottom. GD

I might add that action screws that protrude from the recoil lug on the actions mentioned, should bottom out on the bedding. This is to help prevent the action from deflecting when torqued, as John mentioned. It’s a good idea to bed an inch of barrel beyond this type of action.

Actions with actions screws behind the recoil lug should have clearance under the recoil lug. Failure to have clearance can cause the recoil lug to hang up on the bedding and deflect the action when torqued excessively. This can happen just as easily as the latter.

A dial indicator is a good tool to diagnose bedding problems on free floated barrels. Indicate on the fore stock while referencing from the barrel. Tighten and loosen action screws and observe. I am not satisfied with the bedding if more than 2 mil of deflection is observed on the dial indicator.

All excellent advice--but another reason for having some clearance under recoil lug is just in case some little particle down in the lug recess interferes with the front of the action "seating" all the way. This may seem nit-picky, but when traveling on hunts I've been taking the stocks off and using a take-down case for many years, which is a hell of lot handier than the typical full-length case, especially in Super Cubs and the smaller vehicles often used in Europe. It's easier to put the stock back on correctly with recoil-lug clearance.

Have actually run into quite a few custom rifles where the recoil lug bottomed out on the bedding.

I can't disagree with any of this. GD

How much clearance is appropriate "under the lug?" Can there be too much of a good thing?

Especially interested in the Ruger MKII.

Just found this thread after I plopped a Howa Mini into some Devcon on a B&C sporter stock. I have always bedded Howa and Sako with enough goop to capture the lug and a skim coat for where the action rests in the stock Can’t say that I’ve ever done any actual testing to see if there’s a difference.

I haven’t fired this action yet. I did my usual bed job with NO barrel pad today. I’ll let it harden up and shoot it this weekend and we will see what happens with adding a pad at the shank. . More for my own personal edification than anything.

My other Mini sits in an Unbedded McMillan and shoots well enough I really don’t want to touch it.....but the Kung Flu has me spending lots of time looking for something to do. The shrooms are just barely coming up here, same for the ramps.

One of the other factors that can make some difference is whether the action/barrel threads on factory rifles fit very well. If they do, then great. If they don't (which isn't unknown) then various barrel-bedding methods can help--including forend tip-pressure. But barrels correctly and firmly fitted will be far more tolerant.

I have bedded several wood stocks, not really hard to figure out how. Synthetic stocks, not so sure. No real area to bed? Hollow and just a few pressure points. Only put bedding compound where there is contact? Or slop it in and fill. Guessing that would add some weight.

Bedding synthetic stocks depends a LOT on the particular synthetic. Some of the cheaper factory stocks are just about impossible. Some of the better after-market synthetics will result in better accuracy when the barreled action's just "dropped in."

Looked at bedding a Winchester featherweight synthetic stock, can't really see how. A Tikka T3X is a bit more easy to see.

What is the specific problem?

Nothing but a few ribs, and hollow sections. There is an area for the recoil lug but very small. This a problem child rifle, wife's first deer rifle. A Model 70 XTR from the mid 70's originally in 243 win. Never shot worth a bleep. Got a Teslong bore scope and now can see why. Bought a take off Winchester 308 barrel and had it put on. Now shoots about MOA for 3 shots. Featherlite in cursive, 22" light barrel. Stock is a cheap one from CDNN, guessing a very late stock from the original factory. I can live with it, but guessing it could do better. It's also a long action.. Other than a dollop here or there I can't see anyway to actually bed it, without just sloping compound in.

One of the radical "solutions" I've found sometimes works is a wood stock. Often they're stiffer, and far easier to bed, than many of today's factory injection-molded stocks.

Not to derail the thread but while we are on the topic of bedding, is Melvin one of the only ones who recommends/employs full length bedding on his rifles? Is there anything else magic that he does or is it just that his proprietary stocks are so stiff as constructed? I've tried it on a McMillan stock for my 264 Westerner and a ?McMillan?Brown on a 600 .308. The jury is still out on both. Just curious... thanks!

I do have the original wood stock, gloss finish, white line spacers and all. That one I can bed.. Might give it a try. Wife has a new rifle, (actually several years old) so this one is my "project rifle"

I’ve been wondering about bedding the of Mausers with their, for want of a better word “pillar” built into the front of the bottom metal, there is a certain amount of clamping before the pillar seems to bottom out on the lug, although I’ve seen some older Mausers that when fully tightened didn’t grip the stock tightly, when glass bedding, one of the goals is to make it as stress free as possible, ie no bending or torsion of the action, what’s the best way to achieve this but still have enough clamping force before the pillar and lug come in contact? I was thinking of maybe using shim washers or even just tape on the bottom of the lug, also what would be an appropriate amount of clearance between pillar and lug before tightening? it seems to me you might get a better result by removing the pillar part of the bottom metal and installing an actual pillar in the stock,, thoughts?

I not overly enthused by epoxying pillars in a wood stock and then glass bedding. At least not what is deemed the acceptable standard these days.( bolting pillars to the action and placing the assembly in the epoxy, results in hard contact with the pillars)

Because of the coefficient of expansion differences between epoxy and whatever pillar material (stainless ,aluminum )you are going to use, it seems counterintuitive to have them both come into play for action bedding. ( supporting this theory, McMillan recommends pillars should be recessed below the action line ) . This makes sense because why would you go through all the trouble of making a skin tight bed for your action only to let 2 pillars do all of the supporting?

That being said John, my opinion is that you should glass bed in a fashion that there is clearance between the bottom metal pillar and the recoil lug, when torqued up.

The original reason to pillar bed was to prevent cracking a wooden stock from high recoil. If you're bedding a wood stock for accuracy with something like a .243 or even a .270 Win. just bed the damn thing like MD and some others suggest. It will work. It will make your Box Store wood stock rifle shoot as accurately as physically possible.

As for that pressure point out near the end of the forend, some thin barrel sporters require a little upward pressure at the end of the forend. But not an inch long area. Just cut a piece of old credit card about a quarter inch or eigth inch wide. You need pin point pressure.. The reason for the credit card (or Debit, LOL) is so you can move it back and forth until you find that sweet spot. Then mark the stock where the card is giving the most accuracy, or tightest groups and put some epoxy right there. When it cures torque your barreled action in right there.

I had a Remington 788 in .223 Remington that was a solid 1/2 MOA rifle right out of the box. I loved it. Then I got around a few amateur bench rest so called gu rus that convenced me that if it was half minute as was, I should bed it. So I had a friend glass bed it for me. When he finished I was so proud of it. I just knew it was a one hole grouper. Then I took it to the range and shot it with my sweet load. Damn I was sick to my stomach. It opened the groups up to nearly 2". From 1/2" to 2"? Damn! I was pissed. Then I got to reading some bench rest papers by Warren Page. He stated that many thin barreled rifles require a small pressure point out near the end of the forend. He discribed the procedure and I commenced to finding an old card and doing as discribed here. i had to move it about 1/16" back and fourth until I found the sweet spot but when I finished I had it back better than it wa:s before he bedded it. This is NOT rocket surgery. But you gotta pay attention to the results of everything you do.

This all reminds me of another old saying: You know what you do with a half minute rifle? Don't F with it!

While the pressure under the forearm seemed to fix the issue, the sudden change of your most accurate load opening up to 5" implies something changed to cause it if I'm reading your post correctly. Perhaps an action screw loosened, or maybe something was binding in the stock in either the barrel channel or action area that was alleviated by your adding that pressure strip. I'd be inclined to remove that front strip and check the action screws or other potential issues and see if that fixes the problem.

Ihave one of the old stevens savage in 2506 it is piller bedded and it shoots so good in scared to bed it . I think the old plastic stocks where a little stiffer back then