|
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 1,581
Campfire Regular
|
OP
Campfire Regular
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 1,581 |
Have been doing some more work and some thinking on the Big Bore 94 tribe. I have two, a 375 Win in a top eject early generation and a 307 in a pre-safety classic stocked model. The 375 is under 6.5 pounds and really handy while the 307 is up over 7 with the bases and with scope less handy. The extra weight is all in the barrel and the 307 is very accurate, capable of 1.25 MOA with factory leverevolution loads where the 375 struggles to hit 2MOA and only with the very best bullet and powder combinations. 2.5-3 Moa is more common and still needs good loads. 1680 and RL7 are my favourite powders. Ballistic Potential (Sorry this chart doesn't appear as I had written it) 1)Caliber 2) Bullet 3) Velocity 4) Range to Expand Bullets (1700fps) 5)Range to 1000 FT Ibs (Deer and Caribou) 6) Range to 1500 Ft Ibs (Elk and Moose) 1/ -------- 2/ ------3/ -----4/ --------5/ --------6 (1)30-30 (2)160 FTX (3) 2250 (4) 225 Yards (5) 225 Yards (6) 75 Yards (1)307 Win (2)160 FTX (3) 2550 (4) 350 yards (5)350 yards (6)190 Yards (1)307 Win (2) 170 N Part (3)2500 (4)250 yards (5) 275 yards (6) 150 yards (1)356 Win (2)200 FTX (3)2450 (4)275 Yards (5)350+ Yards (6) 225 Yards (1)356 Win (2)220 Speer (3)2350 (4) 250 yards (5)350+ Yards (6) 240 Yards (1)375 Win (2)255 Barnes (3)1900 (4)125 yards (5) 250 yards (6) 112 yards (1)375 Win (2)200 Sierra (3)2300 (4)150 Yards (5)225 Yards (6)100 Yard If you look at the above chart you can see the limitations of the 375 Win. I love mine but I don't expect the bullets to expand much past 150 yards This limits the speed of kills on deer and caribou sized game and becomes the limiting factor before energy limitation or trajectory. This does make it entirely useful with open sights and even if you could no need to scope this one. An accurate 307 could be a 350 yard caribou gun with ballistic dots on the scope and some practice. Cut the cases a bit shorter and use the 160FTX designed for the 308 Marlin express (bc=.395) and things could get even better. Still you run out of energy at 200 yards or so for moose. That's where the 356 comes into it's own being capable to 240 yards or so with the 220 Speer. Interesting tribe...very useful for NA game. Wish they hadn't failed. What the 375 badly needs is a 220 or 230 grain FTX or other relatively high bc bullet that could start at 2150 ft/sec and expand out at 175 yards or a bit further. It would also hang on to energy enough for moose at the same range. Right now it just doesn't have the right easily available bullet to make it fully capable to what it could be. As is it isn't the long range deer or caribou cartridge that a 30-30 is, but it does have some advantage for moose and defensive use on bears. Even with the right bullets it would not have the versatility of the 307 or 356 but it is sure a handy little thing. The 356 is the most versatile of the three and the 307 is a long range deer and caribou specialist while still giving a useful range for moose. Great idea for covering 90% of hunting in NA. Probably more clear here if you are interested. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WVG6fqEAfMM
Last edited by North61; 03/19/20.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 4,181
Campfire Tracker
|
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 4,181 |
.356 simply works. I like it.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 1,581
Campfire Regular
|
OP
Campfire Regular
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 1,581 |
If I didn't have a BLR and Savage Featherweight in 358 Winchester I'd be looking hard for one!
Last edited by North61; 03/19/20.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 42,620 Likes: 1
Campfire 'Bwana
|
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 42,620 Likes: 1 |
I LOVE your videos, sir! Still on the hunt for a 356 myself, but haven't seen one in a long time. Hope all is well by you.
A good principle to guide me through life: “This is all I have come to expect, standard lackluster performance. Trust nothing, believe no one and realize it will only get worse…”
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 1,581
Campfire Regular
|
OP
Campfire Regular
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 1,581 |
Back at you Jorge. Taking the family out on the land this coming week. Social Distancing at it's finest. The 356 is probably the most versatile of the tribe but I like the 307 the best.
Quicker bullet upset leads too quicker kills on small to medium big game. I used a 358 Winchester a bunch in Nunavut and was surprised at how much quicker kills where on caribou with the 308. I think the 307-356 comparison would be the same. Go up in game size and the 358/356 comes into it's own. There the mild bullet upset leads to great penetration and that's what you need on bigger critters.
Last edited by North61; 03/21/20.
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 237
Campfire Member
|
Campfire Member
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 237 |
Great video North61! In my opinion the big bore family is an outstanding addition to the mod 94 series. Have settled on the 356 since brown bears are common in many areas I hunt. Currently using the 200gr factory power point and 250gr Kodiak. Curious how the 220gr Speer has performed, read several articles stating it won't expand at 356 velocities. Currently experimenting with several ball powders to see if can safely increase velocity.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 1,800
Campfire Regular
|
Campfire Regular
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 1,800 |
I LOVE your videos, sir! Still on the hunt for a 356 myself, but haven't seen one in a long time. Hope all is well by you. There is one currently in the classifieds but it has been cerakoted. I have a nice older Marlin 336A that I have considered reboring to 356 but I cannot convince myself to do it. Les
Its not always easy to do the right thing, But it is always the right thing to do.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 1,581
Campfire Regular
|
OP
Campfire Regular
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 1,581 |
Great video North61! In my opinion the big bore family is an outstanding addition to the mod 94 series. Have settled on the 356 since brown bears are common in many areas I hunt. Currently using the 200gr factory power point and 250gr Kodiak. Curious how the 220gr Speer has performed, read several articles stating it won't expand at 356 velocities. Currently experimenting with several ball powders to see if can safely increase velocity. Check out this great post: https://www.marlinowners.com/forum/...ullet-performance-part-ii-handloads.htmlThe 220 grain bullet should expand ok in the 356 as it's capable in the slower 35 Rem at least close in. My own experience in the 358 would suggest that past 175-200 yards you might have limited expansion but great penetration.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2018
Posts: 1,885 Likes: 1
Campfire Regular
|
Campfire Regular
Joined: Feb 2018
Posts: 1,885 Likes: 1 |
I also will be testing the 220 grain Speer out of my Big Bore .356. I personally feel 220 grains is a better fit for the small .356 case, but have no actual experience with it. Just basing my thoughts on my own experiences this last 55 years with a .338 and 30-06.
Hopefully Karl from Alaska Bullet Works will soon offer the 220 grain version of his bonded bullet for the .356 Winny. I have a sizing die coming from Lee and will be sizing that 220 grain Speer down to .348 for use in my Ackley Improved version. That big case will give plenty of speed to that 220 grain bullet as well as the 250 grain Kodiak. The 220 grain Speer's are less then a 1/3 the cost of the Kodiak's. I have long wanted and old style lever gun that gave true .35 Whelen ballistics, the .348 Ackley Improved will be close enough.
I wish the Big Bore .356 Win had a 22' or 24" barrel and a pistol grip, I just prefer a pistol grip for recoil control. But, it fits my wife and youngest grand son very well and I will probably be packing the Mod. 71. Long ago Win, offered the Mod. 94 Black Shadow, a synthetic stock with a pistol grip chambered for the .444 Marlin. Rumor has it Win. was also looking at the .40 bore in their Big Bore line up, but canned the idea after the rest of the line showed weak sales. I'm glad they didn't do it as it would be another gun I can't live with out. LOL
Waiting on "markak338fed" to see what he can do to soup up the .356 Win. I asked Buffalo Bore owner Tim Sundels about making up some +P .356 Win. ammo, he said he would like to, but there is not a steady supply of components or enough .356 users.
I think the .307 Win. is a good idea and if I had one I would put a Leupold 1.5-5x20 scope on it. With a Barnes X or Nosler Partition it would be a serious caribou or moose rifle out to 300 yards. The grand old 30-06 was making a name for it self in the worlds big game fields over 100 years ago with lesser bullets and similar ballistics. Big bears, a skilled riflemen that stays cool and knows a bears anatomy would make it work. If I need a .30 caliber lever gun I can fire up Dad's old Mod. 99 in .300 Savage.
At my age I should probably quit buying rifles and spend my money else where. So hard to do.......Woe is me.....
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,405
Campfire Regular
|
Campfire Regular
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,405 |
AK: I ordered the 250 grain bullets from Alaska Bullet Works. Karl was very easy to work with. I was disappointed in the Speer 220 FN and consider it a deer bullet only. The slightly less flat trajectory of the 250 grain bullet is a good trade for the better penetration on bears. I believe North61 tests show this.
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 1,371
Campfire Regular
|
Campfire Regular
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 1,371 |
I like the .375 Winchester but I have found it to be crimp sensitive. You can work with roll crimp and the Lee factory crimp die and improve accuracy a bit but it is hard to keep groups under 2" on an everyday basis. My best accuracy results were with the 200 grain Sierra bullet driven as fast as I could get it to go.
The .375 Winchester is powder capacity limited and it is difficult to compare it to the .307 and .356 cartridges. Back in the Marlin Talk board days there were some people who were getting a bit better accuracy than I can muster. The trick seemed to be using as largea diameter cast bullet as would chamber. The throats being a bit large and the origin of the rifling a bit abrupt.
My preferred powder has always been Hodgdon 4198. Alliant Reloder 7 works fine but I am able to generate slightly higher velocities and perhaps just a bit better accuracy using H4198.For our little West Texas deer the Sierra 200 grain bullet at 2,300 fps+ is the best load. The Sierra bullet is tough and penetrates well. I find the 220 grain Hornady does not open up quickly enough on our light framed deer.
Hodgdon Benchmark will deliver 2,294 fps with accuracy in the 2"circle on most days. Bench mark is very easy to work with, you just cannot get enough into the case. Alliant Reloder 10x comes up a little short velocity wise - 2,280 fps is about the top end with the 200 grain bullet - but it will deliver accuracy from the starting load to the top load. It seems very predictable. Hodgdon 322 comes up a bit short in velocity - 2,270 fps is about tops with the 200 grain bullet. H322 has the bad habit of leaving a few hard little kernals in the chamber when you extract the case and dimpling the next case fired.
My critters don't hunt me so the heavy bullets are not in general use for me. The 255 grain bullets run at cast bullet velocities so I shoot the 250 grain Lee bullet as my primary lead bullet. Cast sift or heat treated they do about as well as any I have tried.
Slim
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 1,608 Likes: 1
Campfire Regular
|
Campfire Regular
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 1,608 Likes: 1 |
Greg, the little 375 winchester, using 255 grain Barnes 0riginals will expand very well at 200 yds and within. I never found the strengthened big bore receiver to be necessary for the little 375. We only ever used cheap rebored 30-30's. I used slower RL 10x @ 1870 fps for lower pressure. Quartering towards shot at about 150-175 yd. Bullet hit fat bull caribou head on. Nicked the vertebrae, and brisket bone. It never touched the from quarters, went right between them. Hide caught bullet on the offside. That pure copper jacketed Barnes 0 is a darn good lever gun bullet at lower velocity.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 42,620 Likes: 1
Campfire 'Bwana
|
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 42,620 Likes: 1 |
Mainer: What is your load for the 255 grain Barnes. I'm using Rl-7 with mediocre results. GReat with the 200gr Sierra though
A good principle to guide me through life: “This is all I have come to expect, standard lackluster performance. Trust nothing, believe no one and realize it will only get worse…”
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 1,581
Campfire Regular
|
OP
Campfire Regular
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 1,581 |
Mainer (Mike) That's good to know about the 255 Barnes. They shoot pretty well in my rifle not as well as 200 Sierras at 2300 with 1680 but well enough for 200 yard shots at caribou. I have it set up for the 255's and a 270 Cast bullet. The 200 load shoots over a foot higher at 100 yards! I like the whole concept of the 375.
Last edited by North61; 04/14/20.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 42,620 Likes: 1
Campfire 'Bwana
|
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 42,620 Likes: 1 |
North, I think you mentioned it in one of your videos, but there is a 10grain difference in case weight between Star Line and WW or Jamison brass. I think you also mentioned the Star line load of 33gr of RL7 (max in the Barnes book) gave you too much velocity. I picked up a sweet Marlin in 375 that topped with an old Weaver, shoots the 200gr Sierras really well (as does my 94 with irons), but I still would prefer to switch to the 255gr Barnes, so if you guys can share your loads, it would save me some time. jorge
A good principle to guide me through life: “This is all I have come to expect, standard lackluster performance. Trust nothing, believe no one and realize it will only get worse…”
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2017
Posts: 389
Campfire Member
|
Campfire Member
Joined: Dec 2017
Posts: 389 |
Been shooting a prewar model 64 and a Henry in 38/55. The model 64 is a Jess rebore from a frosty 32 special barrel. It is an impressive cartridge with Re7 and a 265 grain and a 230 grain
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 1,608 Likes: 1
Campfire Regular
|
Campfire Regular
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 1,608 Likes: 1 |
Jorgel, start at 30 grains of reloader 10x and work up. Once you get to a full case, tap case to settle powder and compress in half grain increments.
I don't like bullets with no sectional density in bear country.
The 255 grain Barnes O trashed the entire front end of a brown bear shot at 3-4 feet away. Found against the hide on the offside.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 42,620 Likes: 1
Campfire 'Bwana
|
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 42,620 Likes: 1 |
Thanks, Reloader 10 is hard to find much anymore!
A good principle to guide me through life: “This is all I have come to expect, standard lackluster performance. Trust nothing, believe no one and realize it will only get worse…”
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 1,581
Campfire Regular
|
OP
Campfire Regular
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 1,581 |
North, I think you mentioned it in one of your videos, but there is a 10grain difference in case weight between Star Line and WW or Jamison brass. I think you also mentioned the Star line load of 33gr of RL7 (max in the Barnes book) gave you too much velocity. I picked up a sweet Marlin in 375 that topped with an old Weaver, shoots the 200gr Sierras really well (as does my 94 with irons), but I still would prefer to switch to the 255gr Barnes, so if you guys can share your loads, it would save me some time. jorge Here you go: All loads crimped with Lee Factory Crimp Die: Approach all loads with caution from below and check against a reputable load manual. I would not approach loads without a chronograph as the stretchy rear action makes it difficult to guess at pressure. I don't ride the pressure curve on this type of rifle! Starline Brass (LESS CAPACITY THAN WINCHESTER) 200 Sierra 35.7 grains 1680 2200+fps 2.530 OAL VG Accuracy (APPROACH ALL LOADS WITH CAUTION) 271 Hard Cast GC 28.5 RL 7 VG Accuracy 2.520 OAL Win Brass (Greater Capacity than starline...DO NOT use in starline brass) 230 Speer (235 Flattened) 34.5 RL7 2025 fps excellent accuracy 2.525 OAL best groups with any bullet (I wish a bullet like this was made standard by Speer with a cannelure) 255 Barnes 33.0 RL7 1920fps good+ accuracy 2.56 OAL approaching maximum pressure
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 1,581
Campfire Regular
|
OP
Campfire Regular
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 1,581 |
As an aside the 235 speer flattened down to 229-230 grains is by a good margin the most accurate projectile in my BB 94. It might not expand much past 125-150 yards or so.
|
|
|
|
195 members (160user, 280shooter, 1OntarioJim, 257 roberts, 222Sako, 2500HD, 20 invisible),
1,731
guests, and
976
robots. |
Key:
Admin,
Global Mod,
Mod
|
|
Forums81
Topics1,192,372
Posts18,488,343
Members73,970
|
Most Online11,491 Jul 7th, 2023
|
|
|
|