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People ARE dying - that's a fact. And, people are dying who have NOT been tested - that's a fact. There are NOT enough test kits to test everyone, so we do NOT know the true extent of those infected - that's a fact. There are known symptoms that people have that ARE infected with CV - that's a fact.

Now, if someone dies, who has exhibited the symptoms, they ARE dead, but it IS reasonable to conclude that Covid-19 is the culprit.

And frankly (as erroneously stated above), there is NO Federal money for dead people. And, China is NOT going to pay anything to anyone.

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new name for this bug. the hysteria flu 2020


the consolidation of the states into one vast republic, sure to be aggressive abroad and despotic at home, will be the certain precursor of that ruin which has overwhelmed all those that have preceded. Robert E Lee
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Originally Posted by 260Remguy
Originally Posted by Idaho_Shooter
Originally Posted by kid0917
just saw on Fox, didn't catch all of it, but sounds like, if you had issues with the number before, you will have more now. adding cases of death where the dead people were never tested?

we might make 500,000 in the U.S., after all

This is a bunch of pandering bull squat.

Autopsies and viral tests are very seldom performed upon the bodies of those who die of natural causes. The attending physician makes a diagnosis before death and that is listed as COD on the death certificate.

We have heard from several sources that pneumonia caused by C-19 is dissimilar to pneumonia caused by other pathogens. Thus C-19 pneumonia is typically properly diagnosed. What more could we expect from our medical community.

How about just a little bit of thought and some common sense in these discussions?


Well, you have to admit that there are very few hard/proven facts about COVID-19, so all sides are free to make claims, or cite data/evidence, that is often more speculative than actual. Add that to the general distrust between conservatives and liberals and you have a fertile ground for extreme positions.

I had hoped that a shared experience would bring us together as a Nation, like the physical attacks on 12/07/41 and 09/11/01 did, but the vitriol spewing and finger-pointing by the Democrats would make the most patient of men angry and POTUS isn't the most patient of men. DJT has been under attack since the moment that the Democrats realized that HRC had lost the 2016 Presidential Election, so the liberal programs initiated by BHO wouldn't be continued Thus began their vile attacks on the POTUS-elect, who they have made it their mission to discredit any way possible.

We didn't know, actually know, the level of threat that COVID-19 posed before Thanksgiving and we still only know a fraction of what we'll learn about it in the next few months. According the USN, the great majority of the sailors who have tested positive for COVID-19 on the USS Theodore Roosevelt have been asymptomatic. The fact that NYC has added over 3,700 people to the list of deaths attributed to COVID-19, despite the fact that they were never tested for the disease is concerning to me. That looks like someone in the NYC Health Department is padding the number of COVID-19 deaths and that sort of behavior corrupts the data and makes it harder for infectious disease experts to make informed recommendations and for leaders to make informed decisions.

Or so it seems to me.


I don't believe in conspiracies, but something is happening in New York, the most densely packed place in the US. People are dying in large numbers and the funeral homes can not keep up with the body count. So hospitals are renting freezer trucks to store bodies (will these trucks deliver beef to your local grocery once they are emptied?). So, just maybe, something is going on.

https://gulfnews.com/photos/news/as...ggles-with-covid-19-dead-1.1586248429830

https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2020/04/new-york-refrigerated-truck-bodies.html

Sure looks like something's going on to me!

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Originally Posted by Greyghost
The government ISN'T counting deaths in nursing homes or Veteran's facility's... No one is requiring them to report anything and in fact most are trying to hide information on these deaths.

Personally I believe the administration has hog tied quite a few and in fact the numbers are way under reported throughout the country. The same way that they required the Military to stop reporting numbers or locations.

New York along with a few other states have taken it upon them selves out of necessity to go in and report on the conditions at these places themselves.


If you want to look at things being done wrong... look no further than South Dakota's governor who like trump thinks it will all go away with a wave of the hand and just disappear as if in a miracle.

You'd think news of mass graves within the U.S. would case all this to sink in... but still quite a few figure it cant or won't happen to them or anyone close to them.

Link



Phil


Do a little more research on SD Phil. Let’s research multi generational immigrants and housing and also working in the plant. But even though the sky is falling in your Southern California mind let’s verify that SD has 51 people hospitalized and a total of 6 deaths. Yeah, that’s terrible.

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Originally Posted by renegade50
Padding the #,s against President Trump for political sensationalism......
.....and the extra $ the place gets for every death they can (somehow) attribute to c-19...

Quote


Never let a good crisis go to waste....
The Dems mantra...


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Originally Posted by djs
Originally Posted by 260Remguy
Originally Posted by Idaho_Shooter
Originally Posted by kid0917
just saw on Fox, didn't catch all of it, but sounds like, if you had issues with the number before, you will have more now. adding cases of death where the dead people were never tested?

we might make 500,000 in the U.S., after all

This is a bunch of pandering bull squat.

Autopsies and viral tests are very seldom performed upon the bodies of those who die of natural causes. The attending physician makes a diagnosis before death and that is listed as COD on the death certificate.

We have heard from several sources that pneumonia caused by C-19 is dissimilar to pneumonia caused by other pathogens. Thus C-19 pneumonia is typically properly diagnosed. What more could we expect from our medical community.

How about just a little bit of thought and some common sense in these discussions?


Well, you have to admit that there are very few hard/proven facts about COVID-19, so all sides are free to make claims, or cite data/evidence, that is often more speculative than actual. Add that to the general distrust between conservatives and liberals and you have a fertile ground for extreme positions.

I had hoped that a shared experience would bring us together as a Nation, like the physical attacks on 12/07/41 and 09/11/01 did, but the vitriol spewing and finger-pointing by the Democrats would make the most patient of men angry and POTUS isn't the most patient of men. DJT has been under attack since the moment that the Democrats realized that HRC had lost the 2016 Presidential Election, so the liberal programs initiated by BHO wouldn't be continued Thus began their vile attacks on the POTUS-elect, who they have made it their mission to discredit any way possible.

We didn't know, actually know, the level of threat that COVID-19 posed before Thanksgiving and we still only know a fraction of what we'll learn about it in the next few months. According the USN, the great majority of the sailors who have tested positive for COVID-19 on the USS Theodore Roosevelt have been asymptomatic. The fact that NYC has added over 3,700 people to the list of deaths attributed to COVID-19, despite the fact that they were never tested for the disease is concerning to me. That looks like someone in the NYC Health Department is padding the number of COVID-19 deaths and that sort of behavior corrupts the data and makes it harder for infectious disease experts to make informed recommendations and for leaders to make informed decisions.

Or so it seems to me.


I don't believe in conspiracies, but something is happening in New York, the most densely packed place in the US. People are dying in large numbers and the funeral homes can not keep up with the body count. So hospitals are renting freezer trucks to store bodies (will these trucks deliver beef to your local grocery once they are emptied?). So, just maybe, something is going on.

https://gulfnews.com/photos/news/as...ggles-with-covid-19-dead-1.1586248429830

https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2020/04/new-york-refrigerated-truck-bodies.html

Sure looks like something's going on to me!


Certainly people are dying all across America, but COVID-19 has become a catch-all and it seems that rather than attribute deaths that may not be related to COVID-19, it would be better to add a couple of additional categories, perhaps "suspected" and "unspecified". The output data that will be used to make recommendation and decisions is only as good as the quality/accuracy of the data going into the program. If the data going in is suspect, the data coming out will be equally suspect. There are a lot of frozen goods warehouses across the U.S. that could be pressed into service if the volume of deaths exceeds the capacity for storing people who die in the normal course of life. Lots more room in one frozen goods warehouse than a parking lot full of reefer trucks.

Everybody sees things differently, based on their own personal bias. I don't believe it conspiracy per se, but I do believe that lots of people, including every politician, will manipulate information to serve their own agenda.

Or so it seems to me.

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Has anyone ever seen a death cert which says "Suspected heart failure, don't know for sure", "Suspected drug overdose, but not positive", "Possible blunt force trauma when the head hit the pavement after jumping from a ten story building. But not really sure. Might have been a heart attack on the way down."


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Nothing like a good pandemic to bring out ALL the lefty shills on the Fire. Laughing.


Slaves get what they need. Free men get what they want.

Rehabilitation is way overrated.

Orwell wasn't wrong.

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Originally Posted by hanco
More fake BS


PREZACTLY!

Here’s today’s reported casualties reported to date by FOX :

“reported confirmed cases of COVID-19, tallying over 639,664 illnesses and at least 30,985 deaths.”

And NY State is reporting just over 14000 deaths.

Wonder how many of those “reported” NY deaths were just some 90 year old that died of a heart attack.

Remember, the CDC is counting ANY “suspected” CV-19 related death as a “confirmed” CV-19 death.


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Originally Posted by Hotrod_Lincoln
"There are lies, damned lies, and statistics!" If Fredo the elder has got his lips moving, he's probably lying!
Jerry


Yep. He’s a Lying Commie DemoRat POS. It’s what they do 😡


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Why don't not take a few moments to read the actual CDC guidance for reporting COVID-19 deaths, instead of getting your information from conspiracy sites?

https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvss/vsrg/vsrg03-508.pdf

Since this is from a PDF, it doesn't format well, so I suggest reading it from the link above

Code
Guidance for Certifying Deaths Due to
Coronavirus Disease 2019 (COVID–19)



Introduction
In December 2019, an outbreak of a respiratory disease
associated with a novel coronavirus was reported in the city of
Wuhan in the Hubei province of the People's Republic of China
(1). The virus has spread worldwide and on March 11, 2020, the
World Health Organization declared Coronavirus Disease 2019
(COVID–19) a pandemic (2). The first case of COVID–19 in the
United States was reported in January 2020 (3) and the first death
in February 2020 (4), both in Washington State. Since then, the
number of reported cases in the United States has increased and
is expected to continue to rise (5).
In public health emergencies, mortality surveillance provides
crucial information about population-level disease progression,
as well as guides the development of public health interventions
and assessment of their impact. Monitoring and analysis of
mortality data allow dissemination of critical information to
the public and key stakeholders. One of the most important
methods of mortality surveillance is through monitoring causes
of death as reported on death certificates. Death certificates
are registered for every death occurring in the United States,
offering a complete picture of mortality nationwide. The death
certificate provides essential information about the deceased
and the cause(s) and circumstances of death. Appropriate
completion of death certificates yields accurate and reliable data
for use in epidemiologic analyses and public health reporting.
A notable example of the utility of death certificates for public
health surveillance is the ongoing monitoring of pneumonia and
influenza deaths. Accurate and timely death certificate data are
integral to detecting elevated levels of influenza activity in real
time (https://www.cdc.gov/flu/weekly/index.htm).
Monitoring the emergence of COVID–19 in the United States
and guiding public health response will also require accurate
and timely death reporting. The purpose of this report is to
provide guidance to death certifiers on proper cause-of-death
certification for cases where confirmed or suspected COVID–19
infection resulted in death. As clinical guidance on COVID–19
evolves, this guidance may be updated, if necessary. When
COVID–19 is determined to be a cause of death, it is important
that it be reported on the death certificate to assess accurately the
effects of this pandemic and appropriately direct public health
response.
Cause-of-Death Reporting
When reporting cause of death on a death certificate, use any
information available, such as medical history, medical records,
laboratory tests, an autopsy report, or other sources of relevant
information. Similar to many other diagnoses, a cause-of-death
statement is an informed medical opinion that should be based
on sound medical judgment drawn from clinical training and
experience, as well as knowledge of current disease states and
local trends (6).
Part I
This section on the death certificate is for reporting the sequence
of conditions that led directly to death. The immediate cause of
death, which is the disease or condition that directly preceded
death and is not necessarily the underlying cause of death
(UCOD), should be reported on line a. The conditions that led
to the immediate cause of death should be reported in a logical
sequence in terms of time and etiology below it.
The UCOD, which is “(a) the disease or injury which initiated
the train of morbid events leading directly to death or (b) the
circumstances of the accident or violence which produced the
fatal injury” (7), should be reported on the lowest line used in
Part I.
Approximate interval: Onset to death
For each condition reported in Part I, the time interval between
the presumed onset of the condition, not the diagnosis, and death
should be reported. It is acceptable to approximate the intervals
or use general terms, such as hours, days, weeks, or years.
Part II
Other significant conditions that contributed to the death, but
are not a part of the sequence in Part I, should be reported in
Part II. Not all conditions present at the time of death have to
be reported—only those conditions that actually contributed to
death.
Vital Statistics Reporting Guidance
U.S. Department of Health and Human Services • Centers for Disease Control and Prevention • National Center for Health Statistics • National Vital Statistics System
2
Certifying deaths due to COVID–19
If COVID–19 played a role in the death, this condition should
be specified on the death certificate. In many cases, it is
likely that it will be the UCOD, as it can lead to various lifethreatening conditions, such as pneumonia and acute respiratory
distress syndrome (ARDS). In these cases, COVID–19 should
be reported on the lowest line used in Part I with the other
conditions to which it gave rise listed on the lines above it.
Generally, it is best to avoid abbreviations and acronyms, but
COVID–19 is unambiguous, so it is acceptable to report on the
death certificate.
In some cases, survival from COVID–19 can be complicated by
pre-existing chronic conditions, especially those that result in
diminished lung capacity, such as chronic obstructive pulmonary
disease (COPD) or asthma. These medical conditions do not
cause COVID–19, but can increase the risk of contracting a
respiratory infection and death, so these conditions should be
reported in Part II and not in Part I.
When determining whether COVID–19 played a role in the
cause of death, follow the CDC clinical criteria for evaluating a
person under investigation for COVID–19 and, where possible,
conduct appropriate laboratory testing using guidance provided
by CDC or local health authorities. More information on CDC
recommendations for reporting, testing, and specimen collection,
including postmortem testing, is available from: https://www.
cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-nCoV/hcp/clinical-criteria.html and
https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/hcp/guidancepostmortem-specimens.html. It is important to remember that
death certificate reporting may not meet mandatory reporting
requirements for reportable diseases; contact the local health
department regarding regulations specific to the jurisdiction.
In cases where a definite diagnosis of COVID–19 cannot
be made, but it is suspected or likely (e.g., the circumstances
are compelling within a reasonable degree of certainty), it
is acceptable to report COVID–19 on a death certificate as
“probable” or “presumed.” In these instances, certifiers should
use their best clinical judgement in determining if a COVID–19
infection was likely. However, please note that testing for
COVID–19 should be conducted whenever possible.
Common problems
Common problems in cause-of-death certification include:
1. reporting intermediate causes as the UCOD (i.e., on the
lowest line used in Part I),
2. lack of specificity, and
3. illogical sequences.
Intermediate causes are those conditions that typically have
multiple possible underlying etiologies and thus, a UCOD must
be specified on a line below in Part I. For example, pneumonia
is an intermediate cause of death since it can be caused by a
variety of infectious agents or by inhaling a liquid or chemical.
Pneumonia is important to report in a cause-of-death statement
but, generally, it is not the UCOD. The cause of pneumonia,
such as COVID–19, needs to be stated on the lowest line used
in Part I.
Additionally, the reported UCOD should be specific enough to
be useful for public health and research purposes. For example,
a “viral infection” can be a UCOD, but it is not specific. A more
specific UCOD in this instance could be “COVID–19.”
All causal sequences reported in Part I should be logical in terms
of time and pathology. For example, reporting “COVID–19” due
to “chronic obstructive pulmonary disease” in Part I would be an
illogical sequence as COPD cannot cause an infection, although
it may increase susceptibility to or exacerbate an infection. In
this instance, COVID–19 would be reported in Part I as the
UCOD and the COPD in Part II. While there can be reasonable
differences in medical opinion concerning a sequence that led
to a particular death, the causes should always be provided in a
logical sequence from the immediate cause on line a. back to the
UCOD on the lowest line used in Part I.
Manner of death
The manner of death, sometimes referred to as circumstances of
death, is also reported on death certificates. Natural deaths are
due solely or almost entirely to disease or the aging process (8).
In the case of death due to a COVID–19 infection, the manner of
death will almost always be natural.
When to Refer to a Medical Examiner or
Coroner
Some jurisdictions have requirements for referring deaths
involving threats to public health to the medical examiner
or coroner, so certifiers should follow the regulations in the
jurisdiction in which the death occurred. As always, if a death
involved an injury, poisoning, or complications thereof, then the
case should be referred. The local medical examiner or coroner
should be consulted with questions on referral requirements.
Conclusion
An accurate count of the number of deaths due to COVID–19
infection, which depends in part on proper death certification,
is critical to ongoing public health surveillance and response.
When a death is due to COVID–19, it is likely the UCOD and
thus, it should be reported on the lowest line used in Part I of
the death certificate. Ideally, testing for COVID–19 should be 
Vital Statistics Reporting Guidance
U.S. Department of Health and Human Services • Centers for Disease Control and Prevention • National Center for Health Statistics • National Vital Statistics System
3
conducted, but it is acceptable to report COVID–19 on a death
certificate without this confirmation if the circumstances are
compelling within a reasonable degree of certainty.
For more guidance and training on cause-of-death reporting
in general, see the Cause of Death mobile app available
from: https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/mobile-app.htm and the
Improving Cause of Death Reporting online training module
available from: https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/improving_
cause_of_death_reporting.htm (free Continuing Medical
Education credits and Continuing Nursing Education credits
available). For current information on the COVID–19 outbreak,
see the CDC website at: https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-
nCoV/index.html.
References
1. World Health Organization. Novel coronavirus—China.
Geneva, Switzerland. 2020. Available from: https://www.
who.int/csr/don/12-january-2020-novel-coronaviruschina/en/.
2. World Health Organization. WHO Director-General’s
opening remarks at the media briefing on COVID–19—11
March 2020. Geneva, Switzerland. 2020. Available from:
https://www.who.int/dg/speeches/detail/who-directorgeneral-s-opening-remarks-at-the-media-briefing-oncovid-19---11-march-2020.
3. Holshue ML, DeBolt C, Lindquist S, Lofy KH, Wiesman
J, Bruce H, et al. First case of 2019 novel coronavirus in
the United States. N Engl J Med. 382(10):929–36. 2020.
Available from: https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/
NEJMoa2001191.
4. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. CDC,
Washington state report first COVID–19 death [press
release]. 2020. Available from: https://www.cdc.gov/
media/releases/2020/s0229-COVID-19-first-death.html.
5. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. CDC confirms
possible instance of community spread of COVID–19 in
U.S. [press release]. 2020. Available from: https://www.
cdc.gov/media/releases/2020/s0226-Covid-19-spread.
html.
6. National Center for Health Statistics. Physician’s handbook
on medical certification of death. Hyattsville, MD: National
Center for Health Statistics. 2003.
7. World Health Organization. International statistical
classification of diseases and related health problems, 10th
revision (ICD–10), Volume 2. 5th ed. Geneva, Switzerland.


You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.

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Yeah, amazing how heart attack, stroke deaths are WAY down in NYC.

Every death is now COVID. Helps with the numbers. I've heard that the hosp codes pay more if it's C-19.

Kinda like schools getting a premium for ADHD kids. So, their numbers are way up. It's just dollars, so go figure.

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Originally Posted by Idaho_Shooter
Has anyone ever seen a death cert which says "Suspected heart failure, don't know for sure", "Suspected drug overdose, but not positive", "Possible blunt force trauma when the head hit the pavement after jumping from a ten story building. But not really sure. Might have been a heart attack on the way down."


The few death certificates that I've seen listed a previously diagnosed illness and/or an underlying condition as the cause of death, unless the death was from an obvious acute incident, a fall or vehicle accident or suicide or gunshot wound or etc.

My Father's death certificate listed old age, he was 91, and Leukemia. An underlying condition, old age, and a previously diagnosed illness, Leukemia.

If a person dies and hasn't been positively diagnosed with COVID-19, how accurate is it to cite the cause of death as being from COVID-19? Might have been COVID-19, but how can anyone know without the person testing positive? It seems like a binary, black or white, situation. You either test positive or your don't, no maybes.

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The question is: what constitutes a positive diagnosis?

A bunch of our malcontents will not be satisfied until they see positive lab results in triplicate from three independent labs.

Me? I am willing to take the word of the attending physician. That is what they are trained to do.


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Originally Posted by Idaho_Shooter
The question is: what constitutes a positive diagnosis?

A bunch of our malcontents will not be satisfied until they see positive lab results in triplicate from three independent labs.

Me? I am willing to take the word of the attending physician. That is what they are trained to do.

Trained physicians are working in a system, for a system and the system has a say.

So, if the emphasis is on when in doubt, go with the virus, that's what they gonna do.

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Originally Posted by Hotrod_Lincoln
"There are lies, damned lies, and statistics!" If Fredo the elder has got his lips moving, he's probably lying!
Jerry


Why the uncertainty?

Last edited by las; 04/16/20.

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Never let a crisis go to waste. It is the DEM/LIB way.


You get out of life what you are willing to accept. If you ain't happy, do something about it!
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Defeats the whole purpose of not testing

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some great sniping and ankle-biting going on here, lol.

not a doctor, but would it be possible to take a tissue sample from a dead person and have it it tested later to confirm covid was even present? I am MORE than fine with keeping a presumptive death list; but not really too fine with adding almost 50% in to the total, before you know for sure. and if you think there is no $ in reporting these as covid, I think you are wrong.
Kid out
sky not falling
dipsticks on ignore, still on ignore.

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Originally Posted by antelope_sniper
Why don't not take a few moments to read the actual CDC guidance for reporting COVID-19 deaths, instead of getting your information from conspiracy sites


If you’re talking to me, I did get my info directly from CDC’s web sight.

Here ya go. Plain as day:

“As of April 14, 2020, CDC case counts and death counts include both confirmed and probable cases and deaths. This change was made to reflect an interim COVID-19 position statement issued by the Council for State and Territorial Epidemiologists on April 5, 2020. The position statement included a case definition and made COVID-19 a nationally notifiable disease.”

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/cases-updates/cases-in-us.html


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