Nine cracked 92 frames in five years seems a wee bit high.
The failure rate on the Navy side is even worse.
A good principle to guide me through life: “This is all I have come to expect, standard lackluster performance. Trust nothing, believe no one and realize it will only get worse…”
Then two things 1. We will agree to disagree 2. I know his bona fides and combined wit what he has to say, I'll take his advice (so far) as well..
A good principle to guide me through life: “This is all I have come to expect, standard lackluster performance. Trust nothing, believe no one and realize it will only get worse…”
So it begs the question, aside from the 2" of extra penetration during the FBI shooting (where the 9mm failed) and the 40 is SUCH a burden, why did half the known world go to the 40 in the first place, over a bullet?
Overreaction. A bunch of FBI agents died or were badly wounded in a shootout with two bank robbers due mainly to the failure of a 1980s designed hollow point 9mm to penetrate through a perp's shoulder, all the way through his heart. Their first overreaction was to adopt the full house 10mm, not the .40 S&W. That was a flop, because so many couldn't shoot well with it. Then they toned it way down, and most of them could handle it, so someone came up with the idea of shortening the 10mm to fit in a 9mm pistol, while keeping the toned down 10mm power level.
They didn't jump directly from 9mm to .40 S&W.
The correct solution was to urge ammo makers to improve their 9mm bullet designs and powder charges using scientific testing, which is what happened anyway, thus shrinking the gap between .40 S&W and modern 9mm in terms of terminal performance potential.
This is the correct timeline. Suppose the 80's designed HP had been replaced with a FMJ? Penetration would have been there in spades. The incident that sparked all of this really showed that the officers involved were in no way ready to arrest the bank robbers, either in the way they were armed or the fact they were not wearing body armor. I personally believe that more than a cartridge change the incident ushered in an era of improved body armor and the requirement to wear it. As far as the 9MM or the 40 being the better "stopper" I believe the man behind the gun is more important than what the gun is chambered for.
Prior to 1994 our city PD issued Smith 65's loaded with 38+P+ ammo. The Deputies and county PD could carry anything they wanted as long as they could qualify with it. They furnished personal guns. In 1994 the City issued Smith 5906's in 9mm, the County and SO went to G22's in 40 S&W. The GSP has been all over the place. In 1994 they had Smith 686's and carried 357 ammo. They had a brief look at Smith 4506's, then G22's, then Glock basically gave them G37's in 45 GAP but no one liked them and they went to G17's in 9mm.
Since 1994 we've had 13 LE shootings, 7 with 9mm, 6 with 40 S&W. There were never more than 3 shots fired by any officer and all bad guys were DRT. There were no survivors and no difference in how quickly they went down.
Departments upgrade to new guns about every 10-15 years anyway, sometimes they make them last 20 years. The 5906 was discontinued and the M&P 9mm pistols our city tested didn't meet reliability standards so our city replaced their 20 year old Smiths with G17's in 2014. The SO changed to G17's last year and the county will when they buy new guns the next time.
Going from a G22 to a G17 didn't require any more training or even new holsters. Our Sheriff contacted numerous agencies around the country who had made the switch from 40 to 9mm and none of them could offer any evidence that the 9mm pistols were any less effective than what they'd been using. On paper the 40 looks better, but the end results are all that matter.
Most people don't really want the truth.
They just want constant reassurance that what they believe is the truth.
Prior to 1994 our city PD issued Smith 65's loaded with 38+P+ ammo. The Deputies and county PD could carry anything they wanted as long as they could qualify with it. They furnished personal guns. In 1994 the City issued Smith 5906's in 9mm, the County and SO went to G22's in 40 S&W. The GSP has been all over the place. In 1994 they had Smith 686's and carried 357 ammo. They had a brief look at Smith 4506's, then G22's, then Glock basically gave them G37's in 45 GAP but no one liked them and they went to G17's in 9mm.
Since 1994 we've had 13 LE shootings, 7 with 9mm, 6 with 40 S&W. There were never more than 3 shots fired by any officer and all bad guys were DRT. There were no survivors and no difference in how quickly they went down.
Departments upgrade to new guns about every 10-15 years anyway, sometimes they make them last 20 years. The 5906 was discontinued and the M&P 9mm pistols our city tested didn't meet reliability standards so our city replaced their 20 year old Smiths with G17's in 2014. The SO changed to G17's last year and the county will when they buy new guns the next time.
Going from a G22 to a G17 didn't require any more training or even new holsters. Our Sheriff contacted numerous agencies around the country who had made the switch from 40 to 9mm and none of them could offer any evidence that the 9mm pistols were any less effective than what they'd been using. On paper the 40 looks better, but the end results are all that matter.
Very well stated.
Originally Posted by Geno67
Trump being classless,tasteless and clueless as usual.
Originally Posted by Judman
Sorry, trump is a no tax payin pile of shiit.
Originally Posted by KSMITH
My young wife decided to play the field and had moved several dudes into my house
I^^^^THIS 100% The Beretta 92, Sig 226, Glock 17, S&W 5906, etc. were all designed around the 9mm Parabellum. When the 40 S&W was shoe horned into those pistols, Beretta 96, Glock 22, S&W4006 etc and things started to break sooner. Most of the newer polymer striker fired pistols that were designed after the 40 S&W came out and designed specifically for the 40 S&W cartridge and then adapted to the 9mm hold up much better. The cartridge that is probably the toughest on pistol frames is the 10mm Auto, Glock designed their Model 20 around that cartridge and from what I here there are no breakage issues with it. From what I hear it runs like a sewing machine.
I don't disagree that some 9mm pistols were insufficiently modified to accept .40 S&W, but the S&W 4006 should not be on your list. The slide and frame were beefed up, and the frame rails and recoil timing were changed.
Also, the Glock 20 gets my vote for the most kB!'d pistol. There have been a half dozen kB!'d here on the Campfire.
Really? I wasn't aware of a half dozen G20 blow ups from Fire members alone?
Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats.
The correct solution was to urge ammo makers to improve their 9mm bullet designs and powder charges using scientific testing, which is what happened anyway, thus shrinking the gap between .40 S&W and modern 9mm in terms of terminal performance potential.
Exactly! It's the same with rifle cartridges. If the forum was around 40 years ago, everyone would have been talking that anything less than the 270 wasn't enough for deer. The 243 was marginal and only for women and youngsters who couldn't handle a "real gun". Look at today. With Barnes and other bullets, not only is the 243 great for deer, but people are even shooting deer successfully with the poodle shooter 223. People aren't using the bigger guns as much for deer and other medium game because there's no reason to put up with the recoil, etc. It's not that they can't handle it, it's that there's no reason to.
This video by Paul Harrell pretty much seals the deal for me. In terms of penetration (referencing the FBI Miami shootout), recoil, etc. The 40 is still the better round:
This U-tuber is well worth watching, much pragmatic and useful info there. Don't worry about them 9x19 guys, they are making up for lack of size by using +P+ ammo.
The FBI is in same position as the British Forces were in the 1930s. The officers were not used to shooting handguns, therefore, Webley & Scott/Enfield .38/200 (.38 Smith & Wesson with 200gr lead bullets) revolvers came into use replacing older, larger more cumbersome pieces.
This U-tuber is well worth watching, much pragmatic and useful info there. Don't worry about them 9x19 guys, they are making up for lack of size by using +P+ ammo.
The FBI is in same position as the British Forces were in the 1930s. The officers were not used to shooting handguns, therefore, Webley & Scott/Enfield .38/200 (.38 Smith & Wesson with 200gr lead bullets) revolvers came into use replacing older, larger more cumbersome pieces.
Quite the endorsement.
LOL.
Originally Posted by Geno67
Trump being classless,tasteless and clueless as usual.
Originally Posted by Judman
Sorry, trump is a no tax payin pile of shiit.
Originally Posted by KSMITH
My young wife decided to play the field and had moved several dudes into my house
Those Webley & Scott top break .38/200s are great. They have excellent sights for military handgun of that era are pleasant to shoot and are accurate. Those assembled by Holland & Holland were Cats Meowwww. The marking 'Wartime Finish' are just precious!
I currently own 3 9mms, 2 .45 ACP's, and zero .40's. Reason being, I have had the opportunity to shoot all three calibers, side by side, in similar Smith and Wesson M&P pistols. For me, at least, the recoil and noise of the .40 was noticeable over the other two, to the point of being objectionable to me.
I'd rather be a free man in my grave, than living as a puppet or a slave....
I currently own 3 9mms, 2 .45 ACP's, and zero .40's. Reason being, I have had the opportunity to shoot all three calibers, side by side, in similar Smith and Wesson M&P pistols. For me, at least, the recoil and noise of the .40 was noticeable over the other two, to the point of being objectionable to me.
Holy schitt; making a statement like that on here could quickly lead to having your man-card pulled by some here.......................just sayin'.
interesting thread. 9mm with the right bullets is good. 40 is certainly more powerful. i'm a certified geezer and this reminds me of all the 9 vs 45 magazine articles from the 80s.
one thing I haven't noticed is recoil comparison. 40s I have shot, especially the plastic ones, are pretty snappy.
but, most police I have known and read about can't shoot worth [bleep]. surprising considering their line of work. nothing is effective if you can't hit.
If you're not having fun; you're not doing it right!
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