Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Ask The Gunwriters Mule Deer -- .30-06 and .300 H&H

Too many evaluations are made on a single or a few animals being taken. If that level of hunting restrictions are placed upon us, so be it.

But the reality is, if you kill hundreds of like sized animals and average out the results, then you will see there is no killing difference between the .30/06 and the .300 magnums with like bullets over usual hunting ranges.

When an animal falls to the shot, who among us, can chronograph the speed of the fall in our minds eye and recall after the event?

AGW

I agree if you are thinking of whitetail sized stuff or your 'roo size stuff..........I think if you move up to elk sized game you will began to see some difference......but of course not uniformly with every individual animal......like people some are going to be tougher than others

Hit a coyote with a 22 LR using a 40 grain HP and then shoot one
with a 223 or 220 Swift and a 40 HP. There's a huge killing difference.

No doubt in my mind a killing dif between a 300
win mag and a 30-06. 300 winnie is brutal compared to an O6.

I've killed enough elk to easily see a difference.

Aussie Gun Writer: I've seen John Barsness type the same thing. He hasn't observed an increase in lethality between the 06 and the 300 either. He likes the caliber though.

Will

That observation is so very different from my own that I have to wonder what sort of animals you're referring to.

AD

Maybe not chronograph, but I can generally recall the sight and circumstance of it.

This isn't at all a fair comparison as there is nearly a 300% increase in velocity in the long rifle comparison and but a (at most) 10% difference in velocity between the 30-06 and the 300 magnums.

He is saying 300 magnums.


Also,
Then take a 22 LR Compared to a 22 Mag. Do you think there is a killing difference between the two? I know there is!

I have done culling work with a 25-06 and a 243. Most of the kills dropped on the spot. That doesnt mean a 300 isnt more effective.

hey straydog,

a lot of theories and ideas get kicked around and thought about...

i believe that if your theory of the effect of bullet trace on target were to hold water, you'd also see the effect on paper...
in point of fact, when a spotter reads trace, the bullets impact is actually somewhat lower than the trail of turbulent air... the visible turbulence boils in an upward swirl... regards..... john w

I guess I won the bet I had with myself?

Not a single taker offering any suggestion on this mythical animal species that can be taken by a .300 magnum but not by a .30/06 with the same bullet over usual hunting distances?

Although suggested tongue in cheek, is is really a pretty accurate statement because I for one, cannot invent any animal that cannot be taken with either, or.

AGW

I agree...........

I cant think of a animal that couldnt be killed with a 25-06.... or a .223 for that matter. Even a arrow can and has fell every animal on earth.

By that sort of logic , a 338 Federal is just as effective as your 340 Weatherby.........

Things are REALLY getting bizarre around here! Now we have "bullet trace", the turbulence in the air behind the bullet, contributing to wound channel size and hence cartridge effectivness??!! Like to see THAT one studied. Where DOES this stuff come from?

I think SU35 makes a good point comparing the 22 long rifle to a 223 or whatever to demonstrate that velocity contributes to killing effectiveness, but it sure seems to me that a 30/378 is not substantially more effective than a 300 win or Weatherby for example. The "advantage" of a 300 H&H over a 30/06 with a 180 is (with handloads) 200-250 FPS, ASSUMING 2800 for the 06, and 3050 for the Holland.
They will both kill anything in North America with impunity; and .I suspect, most stuff in Africa as well. The H&H will shoot flatter at all distances (obviously), and may be somewhat easier to hit with in open country, due to a flatter trajectory. It will kick a bit more and expand a tough controlled-expanding bullet somewhat more fully and dramatically at longer ranges due to a)higher impact velocities, and b)higher rotational velocity, all other things being equal. To the extent any of this equates to greater killing power, the Holland is the superior cartridge, but overlapping velocity levels, distance, angle of shot, bullet performance, etc can cloud these distinctions because the 30/06 is no pipsqueak cartridge, and goes pretty fast, too. If you like over 3000 with a 180 gr bullet, get the Holland; if 2700-2800 is OK, stick with the 30/06.

A good rifleman will get his game with either if he uses good bullets and can shoot.

As I recall, you're a 340 Weatherby fan. Now, by that same logic, there shouldn't be any difference in killing power between the 338-06 and the 340 Weatherby, either. No more so than there is between the 30-06 and the 300 Weatherby.

If that's the case, why do you bother shooting a 340? By your own logic, wouldn't a 338-06 kill just as well as the 340, only with a whole lot less noise and recoil? And you know what, if all anyone ever hunted with either one of those cartridges was, say, Texas whitetails (which don't take much killing) or kangaroos, I could easily see how they could come to the conclusion that there isn't much difference in killing power between the 338-06 and the 340 Wby.

But if we follwed this rational straight down the line, maybe we all ought to ditch even the 30-06 and go back to the 30-30, or better yet, the 30 M1 Carbine!

At some point, all know laws of physics will be ignored or trivialized, and all such interpretations will get down to the mood of the moment, or the edicts and whims of the "cartridge of the month club"

AD

Well said.

Most animals we hunt are in the 150 to 500 pound body weight and when talking .30 caliebr rifles, there comes a point when we have "enough" gun to reliably take these animals.

My point was simply that if you use the same bullet, place it in the same spot, and shoot a lot of animals and average out the results, there is little to no difference because once an animal falls to the shot, how can you claim additional killing power?

I remember Elmer condemning the .30/06 because it did not have the velocity to expand bullets reliably out at extended ranges. Now, there is some truth to this, even though the bullets of his era were a lot less than we have today.

The options were that we could drop in bullet weight, assuming conventional bullets, to select a more frangible, easier opening bullet, then the ballisticians interject with their arguments, in favor of SD and BC. All true in theory.

I am reminded of a pronghorn I took in Wyoming a few years back, only a single example but it states a cases that is backed up by a lot more animals and larger than this delicate doe sized antelope.

My hunting partner had a couple of shots and the antelope stood angled towards us steadily as he knew he was safe at that range.

My mates .243 had the ranging ability but as a shooter, he did not. Kevin called "It's more than 300". On the prairie, it looked more to me, as I was not looking at the distance between us, but rather at the size of the animal in the scope wound up to 9 power.

Assuming the prone position with the Model 70 Featherweight sitting securely in the Harris Bipod, I aligned the scope at the still, staring buck. He felt safe.

Having killed several thousand goats prior to this moment, I guessed about 3-4 inches daylight and squeezed the trigger and was wrong, as expected.

The animal was more like 450 yards away as 180 grain Swift A- Frame struck low in the chest through the lower shoulder. Sure Elmer was right, at that range the velocity can effect the bullets ability to expand but the fact is that the bullet opened and penetrated, to exit low and center ribs on the off side. The antelope bucked into the air and fell to the ground dead.

The shot from my .30/06 loaded a little under 2800fps was witnessed also by our guide and representative from the scope company that paid for that hunt. Sitting on a butte to the side a 1/3 of a mile away, he watched the shot in disbelief. It was considered that far.

I know MD and many others here can take a shot like that so it makes no hero out of me. Referring back to what I was saying about cartridge performance, it would not have mattered what .30 I was using becuase the power level is "enough". the game can only fall over.

Let me go to another extreme.

I videoed a nanny goat kill once with a 6.5 X 55. I still have the tape somewhere but have forgotten the total number of shots fired at the standing goat from perhaps 50 yards.

It fell to a chest hot behnd the shoulder. Got up and stood there with legs braced. C'mon it is only a goat? What's going on here? Another shot made the aniumal do a complete flip in the air and get up again. I instructed my teenage nephew to aim lower and take out the heart. With the shot, the heart exploded so much the blood blew back out the entrance hole and stained a softball sized patch on the lower chest but the animal stood braced and shaking until another shot to the shoulder dropped it for good.

This is madness, as the 6.5 x 55 is a wonderful moose cartridge as stated in an earlier thread.

What it proves is simply this, you cannot generalize from a single or even a few animals what is really happening from the effects of a cartridge and load. You can however average out results on similar sized animals as long as they are in the same weight range.

If you took one load and cartridge on a hunt and took a wide range on animals, you will learn about your rifle. If you took a golf cart full, you learn superficial information based on single kills. You are entitled to develope a feeling only, not claim authority.

Any Aussie or Kiwi will tell you with authority, that goats are tougher than deer. Even red stags at 600 pounds are not as tough as a big bille which can go over 200 pounds, a few more than that and some smaller ones like the example above which although full grown, was not mature and heavier in build, perhaps 90- 100 pounds tops.

Enough is enough, and, the .30/06 using the same bullets as a .300 magnum with like placement over usual hunting ranges has little to no difference in killing power because the animal can only fall down dead. Single examples falling out of the scope are still single examples. Changing from a 180 to a 150 grainer on deer sized can change the interpreted speed of a kill on some isolated kills.

One thing that never ever gets written about is the simple fact that animals can be divided into specific weight, size and tenacity categories. There may be a grey area where the .338 and .375 calibers show up a .30 caliber but I have never seen or heard of a category of animal that can divide the .30's into "the .300 will, but the .30/06 won't".

I would never leave a .30/06 at home because an expert told me I needed a .300. Would you?

AGW

Oh, I now have a reason to start loving the most mediocre, if Elmer condemned it that is reason enough to reconsile with it.

You ever see a slow motion of what happens to ballistic gel after the bullet clears as compared to when the bullet does not?

My .340 was obtained as a good deal some years ago, trialed aganst the .338 and .338/378 I was using at the time and kept because it was a performer and the rifle was a nice Mark V. I liked it.

On deer sized game you are correct, there is not a lot of difference between them but I had a lot of expertise and experience assisting me with my loads as I have been a president of the largest SCI chapter outside the US. Many safari's all over the word have been undertaken using my loads or in rifles I deveolped loads for, prior to the hunt. You will probably know already, how detailed the hunt reports become when these people return.

You may be interested to know that 'roo's can have their guts blown all over the paddock with a .375 and they will sit up at you when you approach them. Shot placement still applies.

Another unknown fact few Americans know, the little 3 foot cute fur balls they have in animal parks for the kids to fed peanuts to, are not full grown or they would kill the kids. They are often wallaby's too, which is a small sub species. (Actually there are dozens of sub species)

When they get to about 3-4 foot tall they are removed from the pens the tourists like. A full grown Grey reaches 6 or more feet tall and outweights a man. A red is taller still with heavier bone structure though leaner and probably no more havier than the Grey because of the harsher desert country they inhabit.

As for extrapolating my opinions on cartridges and performance, I can handle that quite well myself, which is why I have been invited and performed ballistic seminars for many years both in Australia and the US.

My last invitation was from the Colorado DOW Master Instructors. An honour to be sure, but one I was warned about in advance, as these gentlemen are the cream of the DOW and I was told, "you better know your stuff, or they will eat you alive".

I got an ovation. I was proud to be able to share advice.

AGW