Home Forums Hunting & Shooting General Big Game Copper ammo and black bear—30-06 or 6.5 creedmoor?

Hi all, long-time lurker here and glad to finally post something.

I am going bear hunting this year and I can use my tried and true 30-06 with 180 grain trophy copper ammo (2700 FPS) or my brand-new 6.5 creedmoor with 127 grain barnes vor-tx LR ammo (2825 FPS). Most bears are going to be under 300 lbs but I’d like them to drop as quickly as possible so I don’t have to follow them into the bush. I am going to be calling them in with distress calls so I’m not sure what size bear will show up.

Normally I’d think “go bigger” but will my 30/06 with 180 grain copper fully transfer it’s energy? This is the most accurate load for this rifle. It has worked well on elk and deer but I never saw big trauma with the deer I shot. Of course I’d like to use my brand new 6.5 creedmoor but I’ve never killed anything with it. Also I’ve never shot a bear before either so give me your advice. Which of these rifle/cartridge combinations would you choose?

The rifle you shoot most accurately.
Either will work. Study up on bear anatomy.

Welcome to the jungle!

I bet neither transfers their full energy.

The Creedmore will never be the equal of a 30-06!!

So no opinions on either load/setup?

I shoot bears in shoulders. Either should work fine. Generally Copper bullets, most will tell you to go lighter to increase velocity, for reliable bullet expansion at farther ranges. I have yet to shoot a bear over 60 yards. Depending on your hunting method and ranges?

When I hunted bears a lot, the 30-06 was my go to cartridge. Based on several that I shot and several others I saw shot, it would still be my cartridge of choice. Put the bullet in the vitals and you will have a very dead bear not far from impact.

My opinion on choice of chambering - 30-06. I have both 30-06 and 6.5 CM, but would choose a bigger bullet for bear. Barnes bullets will do the job, or Nosler Partitions, if Barnes bullets don't shoot well in your rifle. The TSX bullets will "transfer its energy" just fine. You are well acquainted with that rifle, another plus.

30-06 150gr TTSX

6.5 CM 120gr TTSX


Two holes, lots of damage.

I don't know diddly about hunting bear except they are big game. They look to be as thick or thicker than hogs. To me anything 6.5 I consider a deer or medium game rifle or good for medium game. From what I've read on forums the advantage of a Creedmoor is distance. They shoot High BC heavy for caliber bullets at relatively high down range velocity. What I read here is that most bear are killed at shorter distances. So for bear I can't see any advantage with a 6.5 Creedmoor over an 06. Inside 300 yards an 06 is going to trump a 6.5 Creedmoor in energy and any other parameter probably including velocity. I think marketing has blown the capabilities of the 6.5s and more especially the Creedmoor way out of proportion. They have their strong point's but so do many other cartridges. Take the 06 bear hunting.

So Shag would you take the 120 TTSX @ 2825 FPS over the 180 trophy copper @2700?

I have a guide friend who calls the 6.5, the "needmore." Says results on Texas and NM big game are dismal and no longer allows hunters to use it. He admits he does not check what bullet they are using, just caliber. IMO, the 6.5 was never meant to be a hunter cartridge, it was designed for long range target shooting. I'd stick with the '06, and might even opt for a 200grain bullet.

Oh Dude, an 06 with a good VLD 200 grain bullet will do everything a Crudmoor will with some left over. When people talk about the Crudmoor they convenient leave out some things. A big ol' 30 caliber will hurl long 200 grain bullets and stabilize them with 1:10 twist rifling way out yonder accurately. What Mountain 10mm said is right on except I do acknowledge that the Crudmoor is probably a great Deer-Antelope cartridge. But BC doesn't make up for bullet mass.

I know what you guys are saying—a bigger powerful caliber and a bigger bullet hurts more, but does this apply to smaller game with big copper bullets? I am concerned about bullets “penciling” through a pissed off mama bear if things go wrong.

My question is based towards those with experience shooting a lot of copper. My experience with my 30-06 180’s has been complete pass throughs with bull elk and deer, with less noticeable trauma on the deer. It has worked great but now that I’m hunting bear (alone I might add) I am more concerned about the animal running 50 yards into the brush, and me having to go after it or having to go get back up to do it safely.

I know that some people would answer “shoot the 150’s or 130 grain coppers super fast out of the ‘06” but I don’t handload and the 150 grain bullets are less accurate out of my rifle.

The '06 was never meant to be a 'hunter cartridge' either. It was designed for military use. Sounds like he's screwed either way.

Black bears die pretty easy when you shoot them where you should. I wouldn’t overthink this, just take the rifle you shoot well and enjoy carrying and remember to shoot them in the front half.

This one went about 10 yards after my wife shot it with a plain old Sierra soft point out of her 270. It’s pretty dead in this picture.

I’ve seen them shot or shot them myself with all kinds of stuff from 243Win up through 458Win as well as handguns. I rate them as easier to kill than a rutting whitetail buck.

It may not have been specifically designed as such, but it sure does do it well.

If your worried about expansion with mono's in the 30-06, why not buy some federal 180 partition loads. This was the bullet I used mostly (along with the 180 interlock) and they knock the snot out of bears, go together like PB&J. Not sure where you are hunting but blood trailing bears in thick stuff can be difficult as they are not good bleeders due to fat and dense hide/fur. Most of the bears I hunted where Alaskan coastal bears, if they ran any distance you were going to be climbing vertical stuff choked with alders and devils club. The 06 with any good bullet will give you two holes.

I have no experience with the 6.5 anything, I imagine with good shot placement it will kill as dead. The 06 is what I am familiar with, so I'd take that. .02

TK That is one handsome bear.

LY take the 30-06 I agree with some. I have been harvesting big game in VA with the 260 rem for almost 20 years and you can trust me the 120 TSX at 2900 will do the job. However after shooting bears with both your cartridges I'm taking the 30-06 if I know I'm hunting bear.




Good luck and shoot straight y'all

I've only killed a couple...both with win 180 pp rn out of a 30-06. worked fine. one had been shot by someone else but they never showed while I was cleaning it.

Yes. Shoot bone/CNS if you want them to drop ASAP.

Great looking bear!

Yes, that was the first of multiple years where she killed a bigger bear than I did. Her and that 270 were a bear killing pair.

Never shot a bear, but have used Barnes X, XBT, XLC and TSX on small game to zebra. The smaller calibers will not make as big of a wound channel as the bigger rounds, and they tell me that bear have a layer of fat/hide/long hair that can soak up exit wound blood. For "big wound channels", its still hard to beat "Old School" round nose softpoints or soft spitzers. Partitons are the best of "both worlds". "if it were me" I would look for some 180gr round nose for the 30-06, barring that a 180/200 Partition. But that's just me...

I’ve had both 150 & 180 grain Barnes break elk & boar bones over 500 yards from 7 Mag & 300 Weatherby so impact velocities similar to a 30-06 under 300 yards - I’m a believer in 180 grain Barnes 2400-2700 FPS on just about anything walking. Large cow at 240 yds last season 10’ of blood on far side with a chunk of heart tissue & a 15 yard slide downhill in the snow. Use the monolithIc 30-06 With no worries.

I would take the 06. A 150 lb bear is no big deal. With a big bear, you might want more. There is no real reason to take the smaller caliber. My son and I have used the .270 Win. and it does fine. I also shot one with a . 270 Win broadside through both lungs . You will have a dead bear , problem is , this bear was jacked up. It came running into the boat pile. After I shot it ran off , and it was a terrible thing to watch is run out of sight in that thick brush. I knew the bear was dead and no harm to me . The problem is they are very hard to track and many times they dont bleed much. If I didn't find the bear that night, it would have been spoiled the next morning for sure, and I almost didn't find it and was almost dark when I did. From then on it was through the front shoulders and anchor him right there. Next bear , I will smash a big bullet , 150 gr. Hornady into the front shoulders . It wont go far at all. A good chance your 65. will work fine but what do you have to gain by using the smaller caliber?

There is a strong argument that once you have a .30/06 you are wasting any money that is not spent on hunting. Some cartridges may come close on paper but a hunter does not operate on theory, he is living his life, his dreams and goals and savoring every second of it. A .30/06 means all concentration is on the game, the opportunity and the moment so the cartridge, any cartridge, is not a distraction some tend to build a hunt around.

Well said John👍

The .30-06 and Black Bear are made for each other, IMO. My bullet choice is the 165 gr. TSX in the '06, not only for bear but for a large variety of game.

Either will work. I would lean to the 30.06

Barnes bullets don’t tend to pencil through anything.

Would he allow a client to hunt with a .260 Remington or a 6.5x55?

We always hunted bears here in September over bait and in our experience black bears are not that hard to kill, but they are hard to find after you shoot them. They live in close proximity to dark over grown vegetation and wet swamps and ours have come out at last light. In September they are putting on fat for the winter and growing out their coats that soaks up blood like a sponge. Bears have soft feet and don’t leave scuff marks like a deer where they run. Your experience with mono copper bullets not doing a lot of damage on deer mirrors my own and for that reason I would not use them on a black bear. Maybe a TTSX, but the TSX left such a lousy impression with me, I’m done with Barnes entirely. A heavy 180 cup and core bullet to assure complete penetration for a larger exit wound would be my choice. Probably a Hornady Interlock, Nosler Accubond or a round nose Remington Core-Lokt. You are not going to have an ideal shot angle on a called in bear and hitting only one lung might lose your bear. In that case, I would try to break a front shoulder. Bears are bigger boned and heavier muscled than a deer. Use the ‘06.

Take your tried and true and never believe the advertised velocity on a cartridge box.

I’m guessing you aren’t very informed on 6.5’s. Hunting round way before a target round. Started as a military round. Been around longer than the 30-06 too. Lots of animals, including moose, have died for years from the swede.

My 260 with a 140 Berger ain’t a slouch I assure you. I would have no qualms using it for pretty much everything North America has to offer.

Don’t get me wrong. I love the 30-06, and will never be without one. A 6.5 is very capable though. Creedmoor and 260 are very much ballistically the same. So I would use one no problem

Apart from the question mark, I don’t even understand how this is a question...

The guide friend is simply being silly. While I'm not the typical fanboy of the 6.5 Creedmoor, I do own one and use it often. It performs every bit as good as my rifles in 6.5x55 and 7mm08 for medium big game. It isn't as capable as the 30-06 for larger game, but for the game animals discussed in this thread it is more than capable, and every bit as good. Perhaps better.

Same here.


As many have said, either choice would work.

I wouldnt think twice about shooting a black bear with a .223 and a good mono...

here in Minnesota most bears are shot over baits so shots are close ,less than 100 yards .for that reason the 30-06 is the better cartridge with the most power and good enough accuracy. don`t forget the 30-06 is been around for so many years ammo is easy to buy,find,borrow any place in the world too ! as far as copper ammo i will be using 180 gr. Nosler partitions in my 30-06 and that`s lead !

Six black bears this spring by Riley and friends... .243, 25-06, 7SAUM, 30-06, and 300WM (x2) and all using TTSX all but one died in their tracks. the lone runner lost his entire heart and made a circular run while painting everything under him. That was the 7SAUM and the shot was essentially perfect, just took too much heart out and turned the suction side of the pump off.

If you shoot well with both I’d shoot the 6.5. If I was shooting the 30-06 I’d sure as hell wouldn’t be shooting a 180 gr copper bullet out of it. 130-150.

If you put the bullet in the right place, I doubt you'd be able to tell the difference between the Creedmoor and the 30-06. If you don't put the bullet in the right place, I doubt you'd be able to tell the difference between the two, either. Be honest with yourself about which one you shoot better. If it's a wash, it's a wash.

A couple anatomical points...
Humans are lucky, each lung comes in its own sack (pleura) collapse a lung and the other is much more likely to maintain function for a while. Other critters are not so lucky.

Bears are much lighter boned than ungulates, the comparison is not even close. OlBlue shot a Kodiak bear and I cleaned a scapula. It was a beautiful sunny day and I took a picture of an orange-handled knife through the bone. It has been posted here many times.

Their bones are remarkably flexible and, I assume, very tough. They are not particularly hard.

Muscle is like water to bullets.

After many years of cup and core use I will take a solid copper every time.

The 06 and the Bear Claws

I would use a 180g Hornady Interlock, flat base, in the '06. It will saw up a bear like you had took a chain saw to it. Second choice would be a 180g Partition. I like a lot more shock on the animal than the Barnes puts on them. I shoot a really hot load of H4350 in a Lapua case at 2700 fps+.

Whichever you shoot better but...the 06 is giving you weight and frontal area.. Echoing the what others have said, if you need to use a 180, at least at shorter distances, a 180 partition will likely leave a larger exit than a 180 barnes (if you are close enough to get the partition to fragment some). The 150 barnes is a better choice than the 180's for you. They are relatively long bullets for their weight so also might shoot well in your rifle.

Only killed a few black bears and they weren't hard to kill, but as mentioned they all were kind of hard to find afterwards. One died in a blowdown, less than 100 yards from where it was shot...took hours to find because of all the shadows etc.

I have called in two with a varmint call, Weems Wild call, and a Lohman MVP-3, they were both hard chargers

The most excitement you can have with your clothes on!

Today, I would be trying R#23 and R#26 for velocity

Old saying: "A well hit bear won't go as far as a well hit deer, but a poorly hit bear will go a lot farther than a poorly hit deer." That has been my experience. My biggest bear was shot with a .32 Special at 15 feet. DRT. Others shot through the chest with ordinary C & C deer bullets never made it farther than 30 yd. They aren't grizzly bears and just aren't that heavily put together. Focus on shooting them wear they live, not necessarily what you're shooting them with.

I wouldn't use a copper bullet unless required by law. Had poor results using them several times with small exit holes and animals that ran farther than expected with good hits. I have only killed two Black bears, one with a 200 grain Speer Hotcor and the other with a 30-30 pushing a 150 gr. bullet forgot what load it was. The 200 grain Hotcor from my 308 performed perfectly, pretty big exit and bear went nowhere as it went through the spine just behind the shoulder. The bear shot with the 30-30 was a head shot. Bears can be pretty hairy making it sort of hard to tell exactly where the spine is and they are often shot in shady places. Personally I want a big exit hole for leakage. The 30-06 would be my choice.

Both rifles and loads you listed will do fine with proper bullet placement.

06 with standard 150 to 180 grain bullet. Done deal. Ed k

I'll be toting a 6.5 Creed for bruins this fall, if that helps. Black bear I mean.

Eskimos don’t think twice about whacking 1,000 lb. polar bears with .22 cf, and they don’t use premiums either.

They are crazy, but I can’t recall anyone getting AFU by doing so.

Pretty hard to loose a polar bear in a thousand miles of nothing with dogs to trail him with. Edk

I once asked a young Eskimo about a polar bear he’d killed the week before. I said “isn’t your Mini 14 with 55gr FMJ ammo a little small for polar bears?”. He replied,” it shoots 20 times before it’s out of bullets”.

That bear only took 7 or 8 BTW

Ditto, with one caveat... depending on where you hunt, you may factor in the difference between killing a bear and finding it once dead. Have seen them killed with .22 rimfire and a couple of .22 centerfires in the hands of confident capable hunters, all east of the coast range.

My grandson killed a called black bear last evening, 25 hours ago. He has been seeking an elk load for his Tikka 30-06, and he hunted bear with it because a 180 grain Swift A-frame is the most accurate bullet he's tried in his rifle. 58 yard shot, almost broadside, bullet hit center of ribs angling back a smidge to exit at last rib. The bear went 30 yards and was dead within seconds... and was exceptionally difficult to find. Innards plugged the exit, zero blood trail found by some good trackers with him. The bear was finally found by careful search for occasional broken ferns or squirts of scat, plus some grid work, and the searchers walked past it twice inside of 6 feet without seeing it.

OK, first bear, standing in the only open spot where he could see it, he likely should have broken its shoulder given the thick brush - except that he could not see the shoulder and shot the only vital visible. Any hit that did not drop it on the spot, with any rifle bullet combo, would mean trailing the animal at least a few steps. I had one go 15 feet in super thick brush, surprisingly hard to find and a nervous search for it.

This musing is likely more about bullet placement than caliber, but a larger exit hole to leak is usually a good thing.

None of this applies where you can almost always see your boots, see ground across a ravine or canyon, go around or under vegetation without having to part it, etc. You should have seen how scratched up those men were last night by the time they found the bear and got it to a road.

Having nattered all this, I'd take the one I shoot best and most confidently, and if equal, it would be the .06.

A ton of overkill beats an ounce of underkill.

It may not work out so well for him if he shoots an elk in the same place.

Same geographic location or same spot on the animal?

Same shot placement.

?? Took out big sections of both lungs and a chunk of liver. No elk is going to last long with that damage, I say from experience, not theory, and an elk is far more likely to leak a blood trail than a bear that tends to plug exit holes. Plus an elk has hard big hooves, way easier to track even without a blood trail than a soft padded bear foot on duff and moss. Again, spoken from experience rather than theory. Our mileage does vary, but if I had to, I'd take that hit with that bullet on every elk I could shoot at for the rest of my life. Not perfect but it would be rare to lose an elk hit there if one can track at all.

Re the original topic, a friend kills elk and big bears with a .220 Swift in open forest country, while my son who hunts true rainforest moved up from his never failed 30-06 to a .338 Win mag. We do like to find what we kill

Having stuck my neck out again on this topic, will wade in deeper. Aussie makes an excellent point, and describes my approach to hunting. I like to hunt: not shoot, not play with cool cartridges, not build custom rifles nor fly rods. Shooting and developing loads and building cool rifles is fun and fully as legitimate and sometimes more so than hunting. None of those things are mutually exclusive, but most humans will follow one of those paths more than the others.

To get to the point, each of us should figure out what he enjoys most and do it. If purely getting a bear is the goal, use enough gun and focus on the bear. If getting a bear with a custom .17 Swift is my goal (or a 10 lb. rainbow on a 2 weight fly rod I built myself), then by all means do it. I merely suggest that we be self aware enough to recognize the personal preference factor and not extrapolate our preferences onto everyone else.

I've seen a bull hit through the rear ribs just like that run and run and run, and miles and many hours later, utterly evade the shot-maker. Who actually risked his life trying to track down the bull, because he ended up coming out the following morning, with temps in the low 20's below zero. I don't know what happened to that bull, but I do know there was a huge spray of dark blood out the exit, and he didn't even act hit. The shot was literally from 30 feet, and it was utterly botched, in my opinion.

But you do you, boo.

Thank you! I will, as should you, and you will. I will still take 2 lungs and a chunk of liver autopsy over an unrecovered unknown bullet path, and I am one of those who has seen elk travel far with astounding wounds.

Next time this topic comes up, would one of the long timers like Brad or Ingwe please head me off and tell me not to post. My comments are a repeat and too predictable.

It's ok OK. 80% of the questions on 24HR have been asked several times over the decades. And you're old.

Shoot the one you shoot best.

Me? Old?

You only hit the liver if you angle that shot through the correct side of the rear ribs. It isn't a gimme, it's the luck of the draw. And I know exactly where that bullet hit and what it didn't hit, and it didn't hit the liver, because the elk would have died from a liver hit eventually. It did hit guts though, and missed lungs, so you are at best advocating for a 50/50 gut-shot animal recovery. Stay away from Montana, please. It's hard enough to find bulls as it is without giving them to the coyotes.

168 TTSX fully opens quickly and most likely will pass through, I wouldn't call it penciling. If you're wanting to see more trauma try softer 180 Hornady SP or Speer hotcor flat base.